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  • PM’s statement on All Party Meeting of 19th June 2020 | PMO | Jun 20 2020

    Attempts are being made in some quarters to give a mischievous interpretation to remarks by the Prime Minister at the All-Party Meeting (APM) yesterday.

    Prime Minister was clear that India would respond firmly to any attempts to transgress the Line of Actual Control (LAC). In fact, he specifically emphasized that in contrast to the past neglect of such challenges, Indian forces now decisively counter any violations of LAC (“unhe rokte hain, unhe tokte hain”).

    The APM was also informed that this time, Chinese forces have come in much larger strength to the LAC and that the Indian response is commensurate. As regards transgression of LAC, it was clearly stated that the violence in Galwan on 15 June arose because Chinese side was seeking to erect structures just across the LAC and refused to desist from such actions.

    The focus of the PM’s remarks in the APM discussions were the events of 15 June at Galwan that led to the loss of lives of 20 Indian military personnel. Prime Minister paid glowing tributes to the valour and patriotism of our armed forces who repulsed the designs of the Chinese there. The Prime Minister’s observations that there was no Chinese presence on our side of the LAC pertained to the situation as a consequence of the bravery of our armed forces. The sacrifices of the soldiers of the 16 Bihar Regiment foiled the attempt of the Chinese side to erect structures and also cleared the attempted transgression at this point of the LAC on that day.

    The words of Prime Minister “Those who tried to transgress our land were taught a befitting lesson by our brave sons of soil”, succinctly summed up the ethos and the values of our armed forces. The Prime Minister further emphasised, “I want to assure you, that our armed forces will leave no stone unturned to protect our borders”.

    What is Indian territory is clear from the map of India. This Government is strongly and resolutely committed to that. Insofar as there is some illegal occupation, the APM was briefed in great detail how over the last 60 years, more than 43,000 sq.km has been yielded under circumstances with which this country is well aware. It was also made clear that this Government will not allow any unilateral change of the LAC.

    At a time when our brave soldiers are defending our borders, it is unfortunate that an unnecessary controversy is being created to lower their morale. However, the predominant sentiment at the All Party Meeting was of unequivocal support to the Government and the armed forces at a time of national crisis. We are confident that the unity of the Indian people will not be undermined by motivated propaganda.
    Seeking to erect structures across the LAC means what ? that they built something on our side. Which is what the Foreign minister said

    Going by the IISS images there were many more tents in Galwan earlier. But only two were left. Giving whomever was stationed there a clear view of the Dabruk-DBO road.

    So our guys tried to evict them off our territory and paid with their lives. From what i can tell they were successful in clearing out the intruders. We intend to continue our patrols to point 14 as earlier.

    All depends on how the talks go. Which way things proceed.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Jun 20,, 20:59.

    Comment


    • The above was a clarification to the below statement that was issued yesterday by the PMO

      PM holds All Party Meeting to discuss situation in India-China border areas | PMO | Jun 19 2020

      20 of our brave soldiers made the supreme sacrifice in Ladakh but also taught a lesson to those who dared to look towards our motherland: PM

      Neither is anyone inside our territory nor is any of our post captured: PM

      India wants peace and friendship, but upholding sovereignty is foremost: PM

      Armed forces have been given a free hand to take all necessary steps: PM

      Govt has given primacy to development of border area infrastructure to make our borders more secure: PM

      All necessary steps for national security and construction of infrastructure will continue at a fast pace: PM

      Leaders of political parties express commitment to stand united with the government and repose faith in the leadership of PM

      Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi today held an All Party Meeting via video conferencing to discuss the situation in India-China border areas. Presidents of various political parties participated in the meeting.

      Valour of the Armed Forces

      Prime Minister underscored that today all of us stand united with the soldiers defending our borders and repose full faith in their courage and bravery. He added that through the All Party Meeting, he wants to assure the families of the martyrs that the entire country stands with them.

      At the outset, Prime Minister clarified that neither is anyone inside our territory nor is any of our post captured. He said that twenty of our brave soldiers made the supreme sacrifice for the nation in Ladakh but also taught a lesson to those who had dared to look towards our motherland. The nation will forever remember their valour and sacrifice.

      Prime Minister said that the entire country is hurt and angry at the steps taken by China at LAC. He assured the leaders that our armed forces are leaving no stone unturned to protect the country. Be it deployment, action or counter action, through land, sea or air, our forces are taking the necessary steps to protect the country. He emphasized that the country today has such capability that no one can even dare look towards an inch of our land. He said that today, Indian forces are capable of moving together across sectors. While on the one hand, the army has been given freedom to take necessary steps, India has also conveyed its position clearly to China through diplomatic means.

      Ramping up border infrastructure

      Prime Minister underscored that India wants peace and friendship, but upholding sovereignty is foremost. He highlighted that the government has given primacy to development of border area infrastructure to make our borders more secure. Provision has also been made for fighter planes, modern helicopters, missile defence systems and other such needs of our forces. Through the recently developed infrastructure, patrolling capacity at LAC has also increased, he said, adding that through this, we are better informed about the developments at LAC and consequently are able to monitor and respond better. The movement of those which used to take place without any disruption earlier is now checked by our jawans, which at times leads to build up of tension. He noted that through better infrastructure, supply of material and essentials to jawans in the difficult terrain has become comparatively easier.

      Prime Minister emphasized the commitment of the government to welfare of the nation and its citizens and said that be it in trade, connectivity or counter-terrorism, the government has always stood up to outside pressure. He assured that all steps necessary for national security and construction of necessary infrastructure, will continue to be taken at a fast pace. He reassured the leaders about the capability of the armed forces to defend our borders and that they have been given a free hand to take all necessary steps.

      Defence Minister Shri Rajnath Singh said that the nation will never forget the sacrifice of the martyrs. External Affairs Minister Dr. S. Jaishankar gave an overview of agreements between India and China on border management, informed about the directions given by the Prime Minister in 2014 to give highest priority to development of infrastructure in border areas in the regions identified and approved by the Cabinet in 1999, and also shared details of recent developments.
      The last time i heard that bolded line, Balakote happened soon after.
      Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Jun 20,, 21:00.

      Comment


      • Modi-Shah may fit into a fight between mafia gangs but a conflict with China is beyond them..better not to fight at this time with this bunch of illiterates

        Would advocate going for fullfledged American help until a transformation happens in India to harness a new generation of talent.

        Certainly a fight is not advisable when your PM candidates are Modi and RG...A sad state of affairs..but had to be seen through

        Comment


        • Originally posted by YoungIndia View Post
          Modi-Shah may fit into a fight between mafia gangs but a conflict with China is beyond them..better not to fight at this time with this bunch of illiterates

          Certainly a fight is not advisable when your PM candidates are Modi and RG...A sad state of affairs..but had to be seen through
          They handled the Doklam affair very well. So i have the exact opposite impression : )

          Meaning if push comes to shove we will be in good hands with Modi.

          The difference between Nehru & Modi is the former fought the Chinese.

          If China does not see sense, Modi will get his chance.

          I see the CCP as a bunch of thugs.

          Originally posted by YoungIndia View Post
          Would advocate going for fullfledged American help until a transformation happens in India to harness a new generation of talent.
          This seems a popular idea.

          I said this before, the only thing missing between India & the US is a wedding ring. We have access to the same arms as their allies already.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Jun 20,, 20:49.

          Comment


          • Xi has thrown the gauntlet at Modi. He can pick it up like Nehru, or try something new | Print | Jun 20 2020

            As Mao did to Nehru in 1959-62, Xi Jinping has thrown at Prime Minister Narendra Modi the biggest challenge in his public life. Over the next few days, weeks, months, and years, he will take decisions that determine the strategic fate of his nation. And his own political legacy.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              We have access to the same arms as their allies already.
              No, India does not. NATO allies have served as 2IC to American nuclear weapons stations. They were/are tasked to deliver American nuclear weapons. That means an intergration and familiarization of American doctrine and weapons system that India will not have ... unless she submits to American leadership.
              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 20 Jun 20,, 19:53.
              Chimo

              Comment


              • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                No, India does not. NATO allies have served as 2IC to American nuclear weapons stations. They were/are tasked to deliver American nuclear weapons. That means an intergration and familiarization of American doctrine and weapons system that India will not have ... unless she submits to American leadership.
                Minus the nukes.

                There was an agreement we signed in 2018, STA-1

                US gives India Strategic Trade Authorisation-1 status | Firstpost | Jul 31 2018

                The United States eased export controls for high technology product sales to India, granting it the same access as NATO allies — Australia, Japan and South Korea.

                The move means that India can get easy access to latest defence technologies, with the reduction of the number of licenses needed for exports from the US.
                That is my basis.

                Nuke deal was signed in 2008. But there were still sanctions on India pertaining to defense tech that dated back to the 70s.

                It took another ten years to get those sanctions removed.
                Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Jun 20,, 20:55.

                Comment


                • Damansky Island Incident 1969

                  On 2 March 1969, a group of People's Liberation Army (PLA) troops ambushed Soviet border guards on Zhenbao Island.

                  According to the Chinese sources, the Soviets suffered 58 dead, including a senior colonel, and 94 wounded. The Chinese losses were reported as 29 dead.

                  According to the Soviet/Russian sources, no fewer than 248 Chinese troops were killed on the island and on the frozen river, while 32 Soviet border guards were killed, 14 wounded.

                  To this day, each side blames the other for the start of the conflict.

                  However, a scholarly consensus has emerged that the 1969 Sino-Soviet border crisis was a premeditated act of aggression orchestrated by the Chinese side
                  Sound familiar ? Premeditated planned action is what the foreign minister said.

                  On 2 March 1969, Damansky (Zhenbao) Island was under Soviet control, regularly patrolled by Soviet border guards. Occasional incursions of Chinese peasants and fishermen were blocked and repelled without use of deadly force.

                  The Chinese attack on 2 March was led by 3 platoons of specially trained troops, supported by one artillery and two mortar units. It started unprovoked with the illegal crossing of the Sino-Soviet border by a group of 77 PLA soldiers, and took the Soviets by surprise.

                  When a squad of seven men under the command of Sen Lt Ivan Strelnikov approached the Chinese with a verbal demand to leave the island, the Chinese troops opened fire, killing them all.

                  This started a day of hostilities that saw a Chinese regular army detachment attacking two small groups of Soviet border guards comprising no more than 30 soldiers.
                  Documentary on Youtube

                  Part 1
                  Part 2
                  Part 3

                  This then leads to Mao trying to contact the Americans, Kissinger picks up on it and Mao gets the Americans on his side.

                  Because China now represents a second front the Soviets have to defend.

                  This keeps the Soviets off his back in a period where people thought Soviets would nuke China. Chinese start building nuke shelters. China did not know if they would see 1972.

                  China never played second fiddle to the US. China did not become a US ally. They just lost their 'red' tag which they had up to that point. They became 'good' commies. Entered the UNSC, Taiwan became a non-entity and the rest as they say is history.

                  This is all classic WAB lore. If memory serves of OOE's comments on this subject from over ten years ago.

                  Take it away OOE : )

                  Can India pull off a Mao ?
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Jun 20,, 21:55.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    Damansky Island Incident 1969



                    Sound familiar ? Premeditated planned action is what the foreign minister said.



                    Documentary on Youtube

                    Part 1
                    Part 2
                    Part 3

                    This then leads to Mao trying to contact the Americans, Kissinger picks up on it and Mao gets the Americans on his side.

                    Because China now represents a second front the Soviets have to defend.

                    This keeps the Soviets off his back in a period where people thought Soviets would nuke China. Chinese start building nuke shelters. China did not know if they would see 1972.

                    China never played second fiddle to the US. China did not become a US ally. They just lost their 'red' tag which they had up to that point. They became 'good' commies. Entered the UNSC, Taiwan became a non-entity and the rest as they say is history.

                    This is all classic WAB lore. If memory serves of OOE's comments on this subject from over ten years ago.

                    Take it away OOE : )

                    Can India pull off a Mao ?
                    I think that you got the analogy wrong. Zhenbao was blamed on the Red Guards as it was hight of Cultural Revolution. Even if it was a preplanned event, it was Chinaís way of signaling to Nixon that China was willing to take on the Soviets during the Cold war.

                    This time it was Chinese side which supposedly ambushed Indians. It should have been the other way, whereby Indians ambushed Chinese and flood the area with equipment. Basically show that India can be enough of a pain in the ass that China has to reorient their Nukes and other assets towards India. Tue net effect of Indiaís actions should have been to cause China to transfer assets away from South China sea and the Korean border.

                    However, this is wishful thinking as Indian leadership and society doesnít have the stomach for such brinkmanship. We are also forgetting the bull in the China house, Pakistan...
                    Seek Save Serve Medic

                    Comment


                    • China is willing to take on the Soviets and trying to show up the Soviets at the start of the Detente talks with the US. If Brezhnev was willing to defend a small little island then what trust would there be he would reduce arms. History would show SALT-1 was successful.

                      Pointing out the similarities of the ambush. The consequent actions that took place after and subsequent disengagement from the area.

                      Indians found the Chinese on their side and confronted them. This is when the ambush started. They tried to encroach, we pushed them out. That action was not without consequence. For either side which means we neutralised them in Galvan. The Chinese should understand similar is likely in Pangong if they continue to stop us from patrolling to finger 8.

                      China's idea is to show the US that India isn't capable of being a partner. That isn't going to work.

                      Who else is there in Asia that can take on China ? there is nobody in Asia of the heft & size as India.

                      China isn't going away so US is not going to stop courting India. There is nothing peaceful about China's rise and this has been the case for over a decade now.

                      Which is why I don't understand if China does not want India getting closer to the US why are they provoking us in this way ?

                      Because we can be a future PITA to them in their western theatre or as useful to the US as China was in the Soviet days.

                      The story of what happens after Jun 15 is yet to be written : )

                      I think what gives GOI pause is any assertive action will put Sino-Indo relations back into the freezer for the next few decades.

                      Now is not the time for a complete break.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Jun 20,, 23:54.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        China is willing to take on the Soviets and trying to show up the Soviets at the start of the Detente talks with the US. If Brezhnev was willing to defend a small little island then what trust would there be he would reduce arms. History would show SALT-1 was successful.

                        Pointing out the similarities of the ambush. The consequent actions that took place after and subsequent disengagement from the area.

                        Indians found the Chinese on their side and confronted them. This is when the ambush started. They tried to encroach, we pushed them out. That action was not without consequence. For either side which means we neutralised them in Galvan. The Chinese should understand similar is likely in Pangong if they continue to stop us from patrolling to finger 8.

                        China's idea is to show the US that India isn't capable of being a partner. That isn't going to work.

                        Who else is there in Asia that can take on China ? there is nobody in Asia of the heft & size as India.

                        China isn't going away so US is not going to stop courting India. There is nothing peaceful about China's rise and this has been the case for over a decade now.

                        Which is why I don't understand if China does not want India getting closer to the US why are they provoking us in this way ?

                        Because we can be a future PITA to them in their western theatre or as useful to the US as China was in the Soviet days.

                        The story of what happens after Jun 15 is yet to be written : )

                        I think what gives GOI pause is any assertive action will put Sino-Indo relations back into the freezer for the next few decades.

                        Now is not the time for a complete break.
                        I think that your assessment is wrong. It s immaterial whether India can show to USA that she can take on China if it doesn't amount to action needed when push comes to shove. That is will India move into Aksai Chin if South China sea or Taiwan straits heats up. The key thing USA and the world will look for is whether they can count on India to intervene and if India actually wins in the subsequent conflict then that will be the icing in the cake. This was the same between China and Soviets, the Soviets would have trashed China anytime but still the Soviets had to divert forces to the Soviet-China border. If Fulda gap had become hot then China would have intervened. This key factor is missing in the current scenario between India and USA even if the nations had gotten closer. China probably knows that India will never serve under USA, due to too much divisive elements internally and the only way the situation will change is if India suffers an even more traumatic incident, which will sway public opinion decisively. The current mood is angry but I don't think it will last more than a couple of month, unless there are more incidents in the border....
                        Seek Save Serve Medic

                        Comment


                        • India faces 2 stark choices
                          1) Either completely submit to USA and come under US protective umbrella. This will bring in a lot of money and equipment and also put a lid on Pakistan. But runs the risk of permanently antagonizing China. Also if someone like Trump comes around, can we trust US guarantee....

                          2) Accept Chinese suzerainty and maintain a facade of neutrality and not get involved in superpower duel.
                          Seek Save Serve Medic

                          Comment


                          • We stand up for what we believe in.

                            Official Spokesperson's response to media queries seeking comments on the statement issued on 19 June by the Chinese Spokesperson on the events in the Galwan valley area | MEA | Jun 20 2020

                            In response to queries seeking comments on the statement issued on 19 June by the Chinese Spokesperson on the events in the Galwan valley area, the Official Spokesperson, Mr. Anurag Srivastava said,

                            "The position with regard to the Galwan Valley area has been historically clear. Attempts by the Chinese side to now advance exaggerated and untenable claims with regard to Line of Actual Control (LAC) there are not acceptable. They are not in accordance with China’s own position in the past.

                            Indian troops are fully familiar with the alignment of the LAC in all sectors of the India-China border areas, including in the Galwan Valley. They abide by it scrupulously here, as they do elsewhere. The Indian side has never undertaken any actions across the LAC. In fact, they have been patrolling this area for a long time without any incident. All infrastructure built by the Indian side is naturally on its own side of the LAC.

                            Since early May 2020, the Chinese side has been hindering India's normal, traditional patrolling pattern in this area. This had resulted in a face-off which was addressed by the ground commanders as per the provisions of the bilateral agreements and protocols. We do not accept the contention that India was unilaterally changing the status quo. On the contrary, we were maintaining it.

                            Subsequently in mid-May, the Chinese side attempted to transgress the LAC in other areas of the Western Sector of the India-China border areas. These attempts were invariably met with an appropriate response from us. Thereafter, the two sides were engaged in discussions through established diplomatic and military channels to address the situation arising out of Chinese activities on the LAC.

                            The Senior Commanders met on 6 June 2020 and agreed on a process for de-escalation and disengagement along the LAC that involved reciprocal actions. Both sides had agreed to respect and abide by the LAC and not undertake any activity to alter the status quo. However, the Chinese side departed from these understandings in respect of the LAC in the Galwan Valley area and sought to erect structures just across the LAC. When this attempt was foiled, Chinese troops took violent actions on 15 June 2020 that directly resulted in casualties.

                            External Affairs Minister (EAM) and the Foreign Minister of China, H.E. Mr. Wang Yi, had a conversation on 17 June 2020 wherein EAM conveyed our protest in the strongest terms on the events leading up to and on the violent face-off on 15 June 2020. He firmly rejected the unfounded allegations made by the Chinese side and the misrepresentation of the understandings reached between the Senior Commanders. He also underlined that it was for China to reassess its actions and take corrective steps.

                            The two Ministers also agreed that the overall situation would be handled in a responsible manner, and that both sides would implement the disengagement understanding of 6 June sincerely. The two sides are in regular touch and early meetings of military and diplomatic mechanisms are currently being discussed.

                            We expect that the Chinese side will sincerely follow the understanding reached between the Foreign Ministers to ensure peace and tranquility in the border areas, which is so essential for the overall development of our bilateral relations."
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                            What the Chinese are claiming is the 'entire' Galwan valley right up to the confluence. HAHA!!
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Jun 20,, 02:16.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 667medic View Post
                              India faces 2 stark choices
                              1) Either completely submit to USA and come under US protective umbrella. This will bring in a lot of money and equipment and also put a lid on Pakistan. But runs the risk of permanently antagonizing China. Also if someone like Trump comes around, can we trust US guarantee....

                              2) Accept Chinese suzerainty and maintain a facade of neutrality and not get involved in superpower duel.
                              Are you kidding me ? NONE of these are options. They are complete non-starters.

                              The two options were mentioned by Ashley already. Evict them or tit for tat.

                              We've already evicted them from Galwan with no shots fired. Pangong is next.

                              The PM's made it clear no territory was taken implying should there be we would reclaim it.

                              He's also said 'free hand to the forces'. This means something is in the works should talks be inconclusive.


                              Originally posted by 667medic View Post
                              I think that your assessment is wrong. It s immaterial whether India can show to USA that she can take on China if it doesn't amount to action needed when push comes to shove. That is will India move into Aksai Chin if South China sea or Taiwan straits heats up. The key thing USA and the world will look for is whether they can count on India to intervene and if India actually wins in the subsequent conflict then that will be the icing in the cake. This was the same between China and Soviets, the Soviets would have trashed China anytime but still the Soviets had to divert forces to the Soviet-China border. If Fulda gap had become hot then China would have intervened. This key factor is missing in the current scenario between India and USA even if the nations had gotten closer.
                              And how difficult would it be for us to mass troops on the Chinese border should something like that happen ?

                              If it means we can put an end to border intrusions once and for all by say extending the current borders further north it would be a tempting proposition.

                              Originally posted by 667medic View Post
                              China probably knows that India will never serve under USA, due to too much divisive elements internally and the only way the situation will change is if India suffers an even more traumatic incident, which will sway public opinion decisively. The current mood is angry but I don't think it will last more than a couple of month, unless there are more incidents in the border....
                              Right, the govt has been playing it cool to have manuevering space.

                              China have tossed out border agreements going back to 1993, so how do we retrieve that ? there is no way to return to normal otherwise.
                              Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Jun 20,, 02:35.

                              Comment


                              • AIM mentioned people falling off a ridge when they went into the Galwan valley. But if you see videos of the Galwan the troops are patrolling along the river. Not on the cliff. So how could they fall off. For this we need to look at a map from General Panag from an article he wrote for the Print.

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                                The General says the only way for PLA to secure that area is by observation posts on the cliff tops. Indicated by the red circles. Direct line of fire for any one entering. Also able to observe and shell our road across the Shyok.

                                This means when our guys went to check for compliance they found those posts there, scaled the cliffs and confronted them. In the melee people fell down the ravine and into the river. And that folks is how we dislodged the intruders and reclaimed our bit in the Galwan.

                                Salute to 16 Bihar & 3 Punjab regiments. These guys are as hard as nails !!

                                PS: AIM has disputed there were ever any observation posts on the cliffs, nothing showed up on the satellite images.
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Jun 20,, 18:18.

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