Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

[Oracle]

^ This is what Delta hinted. India ain't a pushover. If India is comfortable with a hot border with China, then a 2-front war scenario has already been thought of.

Has anyone noticed the stunned Russian silence? I have been saying over and over again to get closer to the US for our own strategic necessity. Buy more US defence equipments where shortfall makes it even more necessary for emergency procurement. If not F16, why did we not buy F-18? We keep on dragging our feet like idiots. India can't fight a 2-front war with 3rd generation weapons. Modi giving out statement on TV is not enough, we need actual work on the ground. Close down damn HAL and ordinance factories, award contracts to L&T, Kalyani etc. Open it up for FDI. What else have I missed?

Yep, whoever is interested in Brahmos and other missiles, sell them. Vietnam is interested I know. Maybe Indonesia too. What keeps us from selling weapons? Policy I think, policy of appeasing China, Pakistan, even Nepal. All of those useless policy papers, should be turned into a stick and our bureaucrats spanked. The day we teach China a lesson is the day all of our tiny neighbours, including Terroristan, gets in line. Already we taught China a sample lesson, ain't it? HoooHaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

Btw, where are the 50 centers?

[Officer of Engineers]

Yep, whoever is interested in Brahmos

It's not a magic weapon

and other missiles, sell them.

India is a signatory to the MTCR.

[Double Edge]

This should give Beijing something to think about

US Navy says, 3 Aircraft Carriers deployed in the Pacific 'not in response to any world or political events' | ET | Jun 18 2020

[Double Edge]

^ This is what Delta hinted. India ain't a pushover. If India is comfortable with a hot border with China, then a 2-front war scenario has already been thought of.

LOC is 740 km. LAC is 4,057 km. This is why we don't have a hot border with China ; )

Hot border with China takes funds away from the south. We look north instead of South ie ocean where China is more vulnerable.

Right now the Paks & Chinese aren't integrated, this will make them think in that direction where you have a Chinese officer in Pakistan coordinating actions against us.

It also plays to the Indian army which tends to have more pull than the Navy. The landlubbers call the shots.

A policy of peaceful relations allows us to develop our strengths across the board.

If Raja is right we may no longer have this possibility. He expects China to keep pushing us all through this decade.

China’s ability to nibble away at the LAC in Ladakh will only grow as the military balance continues to shift in the PLA’s favour.

While India’s significant current military deployment to counter Chinese mobilisation may yet help persuade Beijing to step back, there is no escaping the longer-term trend.

If Delhi can’t redress the growing military imbalance and as Islamabad becomes even more dependent on Beijing, China will loom larger than ever on the entire Kashmir region.

That is the real message from the new Chinese affirmation that it is now part of the Kashmir question.

Whatever policy changes we make has to cater to this longer term trend and the time to start thinking about it is today.

Start addressing the growing power imbalance.

The way to defeat the Chinese is in their minds.

[Oracle]

It's not a magic weapon

Just to piss off the Chinese.

Appeasement has got us nothing, but salami slicing. We should sign defence pacts if available, with the US, Japan, Australia, Taiwan (recognise Taiwan as an independent country), basically all of China's rivals.

And btw, I don't think India can sell Brahmos to Vietnam without the permission of the Russians.

India is a signatory to the MTCR.

Less than 300 kms and a payload of less than 500 kg.

[Oracle]

LOC is 740 km. LAC is 4,057 km. This is why we don't have a hot border with China ; )

Hot border with China takes funds away from the south. We look north instead of South ie ocean where China is more vulnerable.

Right now the Paks & Chinese aren't integrated, this will make them think in that direction where you have a Chinese officer in Pakistan coordinating actions against us.

It also plays to the Indian army which tends to have more pull than the Navy. The landlubbers call the shots.

A policy of peaceful relations allows us to develop our strengths across the board.

If Raja is right we may no longer have this possibility. He expects China to keep pushing us all through this decade.

And keep losing land? No thank you.

Whatever policy changes we make has to cater to this longer term trend and the time to start thinking about it is today.

Start addressing the growing power imbalance.

The way to defeat the Chinese is in their minds.

I don't like Raja's pessimist articles, while I agree with the parts in bold. This I have discussed a 1000 times. Man to man, both get wounded, many dead, none wins. Tools to tools, China has, but an advantage. We need to increase our share of defence GDP to 5% for a decade, and weaponise ourselves.

[Oracle]

Growing chorus of boycotting Chinese imports, but, how much can we cut? Non-essential items should be ticked off the list. Railways has removed some Chinese company from signalling works in freight corridor for poor progress. BSNL & MTNL has removed Chinese companies from bidding in Government projects (4G). Same would follow in the private space too (Jio, AirTel, Vodafone), if the Government has its way. All in all, expected reactions coming out. If the Chinese can use their economic heft with Japan, SKorea, we can too with the Chinese.

[Oracle]

India recovers from the shock of nail-studded clubs, gets ready to get even

^ Better safe than dead.

View: It's not just the Indian soldiers that fell off the cliff at the border

Pragmatic view.

China brings in hundreds of soldiers, heavy construction equipment to Galwan Valley

This comes from the top of the CPC, and they won't stop unless they are stopped.

India to bar BSNL from sourcing gear from Huawei, ZTE; may also bar pvt telcos from using Chinese gear

Rules soon to block cheap imports from China, others: Ram Vilas Paswan

[Oracle]

Chinese nationals in India anxious, fear backlash

These are ordinary Chinese studying, living and working in India. They must not be harmed, in fact even in this times of crisis they must be made to feel they are just at home in India. Wounding/killing unarmed people is the hallmark of the PLA as we have seen recently. We should not stoop so low, even if a war is thrust upon us.

[667medic]

LOC is 740 km. LAC is 4,057 km. This is why we don't have a hot border with China ; )

Hot border with China takes funds away from the south. We look north instead of South ie ocean where China is more vulnerable.

Right now the Paks & Chinese aren't integrated, this will make them think in that direction where you have a Chinese officer in Pakistan coordinating actions against us.

It also plays to the Indian army which tends to have more pull than the Navy. The landlubbers call the shots.

A policy of peaceful relations allows us to develop our strengths across the board.

If Raja is right we may no longer have this possibility. He expects China to keep pushing us all through this decade.



Whatever policy changes we make has to cater to this longer term trend and the time to start thinking about it is today.

Start addressing the growing power imbalance.

The way to defeat the Chinese is in their minds.

I have interacted with several Chinese, even had a very close buddy during my Higher studies. They are nice folks but have a superiority complex with India. From frank conversations, they acknowledge the cultural diversity but look down on democracy, religion, poverty etc. Actually they don't look at India as even a competitor. This attitude will only change under a couple of circumstances. First one is if India fully goes subservient to China where the superiority complex will be masked by the master/tributary relation that China has with Pakistan. The second alternative is for India to ramp up her economic/social/political stature. I don't see the second alternative happening any time. This means that the current scenario will continue and India has no choice but to grind her teeth I anger.

[667medic]

India recovers from the shock of nail-studded clubs, gets ready to get even

^ Better safe than dead.

View: It's not just the Indian soldiers that fell off the cliff at the border

Pragmatic view.

China brings in hundreds of soldiers, heavy construction equipment to Galwan Valley

This comes from the top of the CPC, and they won't stop unless they are stopped.

India to bar BSNL from sourcing gear from Huawei, ZTE; may also bar pvt telcos from using Chinese gear

Rules soon to block cheap imports from China, others: Ram Vilas Paswan

In the face of lack of alternatives, the middleclass will continue to buy Chinese gadgets and the poor in villages will continue to buy cheap goods. The trade deficit with China happens for a reason, it includes goods, which were unaffordable to the poor in the past, I includes active pharma ingredients that India use to make her drugs and dominate the generic drug market, it includes machinery and equipment that India needs to modernize her crumbling infrastructure.

Let the market forces compete to develop Indian technology, as India has shown by being the world player in the Motorcycle industry.

[Double Edge]

And keep losing land? No thank you.

We haven't lost any yet. But you can see the mind games here. The message China is sending is they want to keep finger 4.

They want to teach us a lesson for having pulled that stunt on them last October. If getting Galwan back entailed this much hassle just imagine how hard restoring status quo in Pangong will be.

Oh you want to settle the border, here, we just tossed out every agreement since 1993 so take a hike India. Guess what, there is no fcuking border any more. We say where it is and you either lump it or fight us.

Their way of negotiating a settlement is from a position of strength.

If this is the case then Ashley has presented us with two options

- either lets us patrol up to finger 8 or we open fire as you said
- grab territory in other areas where we have an advantage and there are many. Take the fight to them.

If there is no border any more then we will carve one out with blood & guts !!

I don't like Raja's pessimist articles, while I agree with the parts in bold. This I have discussed a 1000 times. Man to man, both get wounded, many dead, none wins. Tools to tools, China has, but an advantage.

It's not the tools, its the capacity to keep going longer than we can. Bleeding us in the process. What the US did to the Soviets.

Until we have a better idea of how they can keep us under pressure for an extended period of time. No decision is possible.

Cough up what they want and you get a breather until they come asking again. Fight them when they do and they will keep the pressure on us for the next decade.

Given we share a border with them they can apply more pressure than to others that are far away.

It comes down to resolve. Shah has made it clear what our stand is here.

Maybe this is our lot, the Americans, Canadians & Aussies get to endure economic sanctions, our fight will be more physical.

In doing so we send a strong message to all the smaller powers as to who we are.

We need to increase our share of defence GDP to 5% for a decade, and weaponise ourselves.

Raja is saying improve defense infrastructure. Upping the defense share is one option. Building roads reduces their advantage over us in bringing troops to the border. Roads are good investments. But in the end you need people patrolling and checking to see which bits get grabbed across the entire length in inhospitable territory. And keep on doing it for the next decade.

[Officer of Engineers]

Just to piss off the Chinese.

The point is that Vietnam and others may not have the capability to use the BRAHMOS. You're talking about over-the-horizon detection and targetting.

Appeasement has got us nothing, but salami slicing. We should sign defence pacts if available, with the US, Japan, Australia, Taiwan (recognise Taiwan as an independent country), basically all of China's rivals.

I have news for you. YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE CHINESE. Not only are they your neighbours but also an economic powerhouse with money to burn. For a lot of manufacturing, they are the best bang for the buck. An Indian businessman would be an utter fool NOT to use some Chinese products.

In any case, this recent incident tells a very informative situation. This terrain is utterly indefencible. It's just a pissing contest. Nothing more.

[Double Edge]

Chinese nationals in India anxious, fear backlash

These are ordinary Chinese studying, living and working in India. They must not be harmed, in fact even in this times of crisis they must be made to feel they are just at home in India. Wounding/killing unarmed people is the hallmark of the PLA as we have seen recently. We should not stoop so low, even if a war is thrust upon us.

They're innocent. When I interact with Chinese i always tell them there is no hatred for them.

Only with their regime and the bots that work for them. Same with the Paks. Both are the first and biggest victims of their respective regimes.

They are utterly powerless to do anything about it. They don't get to elect people or throw them out like we do.

They aren't given the facts, transparency is a facade and they have no idea what is happening with India.

Forget India, how many of their young know what happened at Tianamen.

Still, the risks to them are real. China did send an advisory to its citizens in India to leave. China had to clarify that this did not mean that a war was coming.

Few years back when there were frictions with Vietnam over 300 Chinese owned business got trashed there by the locals. Open season on anyone and every one from China.

For those that choose to remain in India, their best bet is to say they come from the NE.

The casualties on the Chinese side are not yet known.

However, government sources, citing an American intelligence report, claimed the total number of soldiers killed and seriously wounded could be 35.

What is this American intel they are quoting ? our own people on the site saw how many stretchers and helis arrived to evacuate their casualties.

[667medic]

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status...13659045482496

Some sat images. The exact area where the clash took place is not clear. This pic shows the white circle as the clash area and puts it in Indian sphere.

In the below tweet, Abhijit Iyer places the clash area as further North East, which puts it in Chinese area.

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/...319749/photo/1