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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • If China is this emerging superpower with aspirations to take on the US why does it still rely on Pakistan to do its bidding ?

    Should't China be able to handle India on its own : )

    Why we have to plan for this two front crap.

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    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      If China is this emerging superpower with aspirations to take on the US why does it still rely on Pakistan to do its bidding ?

      Should't China be able to handle India on its own : )

      Why we have to plan for this two front crap.
      We plan for a 2 front war because both India and China know, China will not win a war alone. I doubt if they can win, with Pakistan opening a front on our western theatre. This is why we need allies, QUAD, unless we get our act together. The more, the merrier.
      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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      • It's a dig at China. If they can't take us on their own they might want to put off going after the US.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
          It's a dig at China. If they can't take us on their own they might want to put off going after the US.
          Only if they have fire spitting dragons, ROFL!
          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

          Comment


          • Seems their text section does not keep up with the video



            Says we violated the Jun 06 consensus (!)

            But when we went to check on whether they were complying with it then the brawl took place.

            We are being accused of transgressing on their side now.

            Let's do this again, they agreed to restore status quo in the Galwan & Hot springs area. As in they withdraw.

            Our guys show up to check, find them still there, a heated argument ensues...

            So Jun 06 needs to be redone because it no longer holds.

            And the NEXT time we go check for compliance we bring the cameras and if they don't comply the world gets to know about it.

            Demarche to the ambassador.
            Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Jun 20,, 04:11.

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            • It's moved way past cameras now. Since we're not the firstest, we should be the ones to start shooting first. No more fist-fights, rods and stones.

              Armed forces to stock up war reserves

              Our borders alongwith China/Pak should always be in war-like situation. Ever ready for their mischiefs.
              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

              Comment


              • Phone call between External Affairs Minister, Dr. S. Jaishankar and Foreign Minister of China, H.E. Mr. Wang Yi | MEA | Jun 17 2020

                Phone call between External Affairs Minister, Dr. S. Jaishankar and Foreign Minister of China, H.E. Mr. Wang Yi
                June 17, 2020

                1. The External Affairs Minister and the State Councillor and Foreign Minister of China, H.E. Mr. Wang Yi, had a phone conversation this afternoon on recent developments in Ladakh.

                2. EAM conveyed the protest of the Government of India in the strongest terms on the violent face-off in Galwan Valley on 15 June 2020. He recalled that at the meeting of senior Military Commanders held on 6th June, an agreement was reached on de-escalation and disengagement along the Line of Actual Control (LAC). Ground commanders were meeting regularly to implement this consensus throughout the last week. While there was some progress, the Chinese side sought to erect a structure in Galwan valley on our side of the LAC. While this became a source of dispute, the Chinese side took pre-meditated and planned action that was directly responsible for the resulting violence and casualties. It reflected an intent to change the facts on ground in violation of all our agreements to not change the status quo.

                3. EAM underlined that this unprecedented development will have a serious impact on the bilateral relationship. The need of the hour was for the Chinese side to reassess its actions and take corrective steps. The two sides should scrupulously and sincerely implement the understanding that was reached by the Senior Commanders on 6th June. Troops of both sides should also abide by the bilateral agreements and protocols. They should strictly respect and observe the Line of Actual Control and should not take any unilateral action to alter it.

                4. The State Councillor and Foreign Minister of China, on his part, conveyed the Chinese position on recent developments.

                5. At the conclusion of the discussion, it was agreed that the overall situation would be handled in a responsible manner, and both sides would implement the disengagement understanding of 6 June sincerely. Neither side would take any action to escalate matters and instead, ensure peace and tranquillity as per bilateral agreements and protocols.
                I find no other statements on the MEA's website as to the incidents of Mon Jun 15th

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                Soldiers sacrifice won't be in vain.

                Hmm, what has he got in mind there : )
                Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jun 20,, 02:14.

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                  Goodwill from Beijing would be complying with agreements

                  According to Alastair Ian Johnston's 'Cultural Realism' every time the Chinese are weak or losing something they claim magnanimity and goodwill. Every time they're strong they show you no mercy.

                  By not releasing numbers China is trying to save face.

                  India is also trying to save face, by releasing the numbers and putting out a non aggressive statement indicates India does not want to escalate. Not yet anyway.

                  AIM speaks about it here

                  What i found interesting is he mentions the LAC is a baragaining line. In others words confidential. Neither govt puts out maps.

                  Not even our troops who go out on patrol have a copy. All they get are coordinates and a GPS and then told to complete their task. whatever maps they get are rudimentary and details change by the commander. There will inevitably be quite a bit of confusion here from both sides on the ground doing the task.
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Jun 20,, 16:54.

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                  • Both sides are going to swallow this defeat and continue to work at resolving the larger matter at hand.

                    Indian opposition will keep raking this one up.

                    But the bottom line is an unforseen freak accident has no follow up.

                    China claims sovereignty over Galwan Valley; refuses to comment on Chinese casualties | ET | Jun 17 2020

                    At a briefing at the Chinese Foreign Ministry, Spokesman Zhao Lijian refused to comment on reports of 43 casualties on the Chinese side during the face-off in the Galwan Valley on Monday night.
                    They've lumped it. Beijing accepts there were casualties but won't admit numbers.

                    Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Zhao Lijian's Regular Press Conference on June 17, 2020

                    American National Public Radio: To go back to the China-India border clash, can the Chinese foreign ministry reveal any more details about what happened on the night of June 15?

                    Zhao Lijian: The Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Western Theater Command spokesperson already released a statement yesterday. It goes as follows:

                    Indian troops have broken their promises and again crossed the line of actual control in the Galwan Valley region on June 15 evening and purposely launched provocative attacks, leading to severe clashes and casualties. China always owns sovereignty over the Galwan Valley region, and the Indian border troops have acted in ways inconsistent with their words and seriously violated the agreements both countries have reached, the consensus made during the army commander-level talks and harmed the relations of the two militaries and the feelings of the two peoples. India should strictly restrain its front-line troops, immediately stop all provocative actions, meet the Chinese side halfway and come back to the right path of solving disputes through talks.
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                    The LAC runs just behind patrol point 14. So what is he saying here ? we can't go up to point 14 any more.

                    How much of the Galwan valley are they claiming here. We just come over the shyok go to PP14 and return.

                    The rest of the valley falls on their side any ways.
                    Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Jun 20,, 22:39.

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                    • I am a bit surprised with the Chinese behaviour here when it comes to acknowledging their dead.

                      For the Paks this is not surprising but Chinese too ??

                      People will say under counting is typical of CCP math but c'mon...those soldiers gave their lives for their country !!

                      They serve with honour.

                      Wonder if there is any pattern here with past conflicts where the same behaviour was observed.

                      Anyone got any examples from the past ? of China under counting their dead soldiers.

                      No, You cannot use Corona, has to be a conflict.

                      Got an answer, China de-classified casualty numbers for the '62 war only in 1994
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jun 20,, 01:34.

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                      • Chinese action violates 1993, 1996, and 2013 border agreements | ET | Jun 16 2020

                        By Pranab Dhal Samanta, ET Bureau|Last Updated: Jun 16, 2020, 07.27 PM IST

                        The 1993 pact clearly states that both sides will “jointly check” the alignment of LAC where there is a doubt.

                        NEW DELHI: China through its military action at Galwan in Ladakh, which resulted in three killed on the Indian side, has violated three key bilateral agreements -- 1993, 1996 and 2013 – that have been central to maintaining peace and tranquility on the disputed Line of Actual Control. Until now, not a single soldier had been killed on either side of the LAC for over four decades.

                        The 1993 agreement clearly states that in case personnel from either side cross the Line of Actual Control, “upon being cautioned by the other side, they shall immediately pull back to their side of the Line of Actual Control”. China has not done that either in Galwan or Pangong Tso. On the contrary, it has built structures and stationed its troops in a face-off like situation despite cautionary warnings.

                        The escalation on Monday night was an extension of an aggressive posture on LAC, even though talks were on for de-escalation. The 1993 agreement, in fact, clearly states that both sides will “jointly check” the alignment of LAC where there is a doubt.

                        The key extract from the 1993 agreement:
                        “No activities of either side shall overstep the line of actual control. In case personnel of one side cross the Line of Actual Control, upon being cautioned by the other side, they shall immediately pull back to their own side of the Line of Actual Control. When necessary, the two sides shall jointly check and determine the segments of the Line of Actual Control where they have different views as to its alignment.”

                        Three years later, both sides went into further specifics, making it clear that troops on both sides shall “exercise self-restraint” in case of a face-off situation and start “immediate consultations” through diplomatic channels.

                        The Chinese side has not shown self-restraint from Day One at all points of the stand-off. Those familiar with the details have told ET that the aggression has been high with Chinese troops assaulting Indian troops with sharp edged batons and rods. This, sources said, is visible from the nature of injuries sustained by Indian soldiers during all the physical jostling.

                        On Monday night, this physical violence led to deaths, indicating that the hand-to-hand combat was gruesome.

                        Key extract (1996):
                        "If the border personnel of the two sides come in a face-to-face situation due to differences on the alignment of the line of actual control or any other reason, they shall exercise self-restraint and take all necessary steps to avoid an escalation of the situation. Both sides shall also enter into immediate consultations through diplomatic and/or other available channels to review the situation and prevent any escalation of tension."

                        The agreement, also for the first time in India-China rules of engagement, makes it clear that “neither side shall open fire or conduct blast operations within 2 km of the Line of Actual Control”. This is what led to a practice, where troops on both sides, never brandished weapons at each other and at most, indulged in a physical jostle.

                        Key extract:
                        “Neither side shall open fire, cause bio-degradation, use hazardous chemicals, conduct blast operations or hunt with guns or explosives within two kilometers from the line of actual control. This prohibition shall not apply to routine firing activities in small arms firing ranges.”

                        It was this agreement of 1996 which also set the rules on military exercises, making it clear that the strategic direction of the main force in an exercise “shall not be towards the other side”. The Chinese PLA is carrying out its summer exercises opposite Ladakh which clearly are aimed at threatening India.

                        Key Extract:
                        "Both sides shall avoid holding large scale military exercises involving more than one Division (approximately 15,000 troops) in close proximity of the Line of Actual Control in the India-China border areas. However, if such exercises are to be conducted, the strategic direction of the main force involved shall not be towards the other side.”

                        The latest document on confidence building measures on the LAC was the 2013 India-China Border Defence Cooperation Agreement in which both sides agreed “to not follow or tail patrols” in areas where there is no clarity on the LAC. Here again, the violence in Galwan raises doubts whether Chinese troops followed this protocol. Chinese maneuvers of the past two weeks has had the Indian side quite worried on this count.

                        Key extract (2013):
                        “The two sides agree that they shall not follow or tail patrols of the other side in areas where there is no common understanding of the Line of Actual Control in the India-China border areas.”

                        China’s track record on adhering to agreed CBMs and protocols on the LAC has been poor in the past few years. Having agreed to establish a hotline between the two military headquarters in 2013, the Chinese side scuttled the proposal by saying its embassy in Delhi should be notified first in case the Indian side wanted to make a call. Then, there were differences on encryption codes and translation arrangements. As a result, a hotline is still to be operationalized despite positive noises from the Indian side.
                        Rules are pretty clear, meaning the incident on Monday night could not, should not have happened.

                        We still don't know how things went out of hand. But there was a clear break down of discipline.
                        Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Jun 20,, 22:34.

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                        • Raja's take. Skewers this bogus argument i keep hearing that oh its because of 370 (!)

                          Pravin Sawhney from F.O.R.C.E magazine uses this as a pretext. Straight out of Beijing and is BS!!

                          Growing power differential is what lies behind China’s assertion in Ladakh | IE (op-ed) | Jun 16 2020

                          In other words we were up for tussle with China regardless of 370 or not.

                          It is ironic that the charge of unilateralism comes from Beijing, which has turned critical parts of the South China Sea into administrative districts of China and matched those moves with physical steps to gain effective control over the disputed waters.

                          Delhi has taken no such action in Kashmir, nor does anyone believe India is in a position to gain control over the territories controlled by either Pakistan or China.
                          Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jun 20,, 00:09.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                            Next time the PLA starts such nonsense, we should start firing, and kill 50-100 of them and shore up our offensive capability immediately, before the PLA can react. Firstest and mostest. I like this idea of the Colonel. Teach the PLA a lesson over their dead bodies.
                            You might get your wish

                            India likely to review rules of engagement at LAC after Galwan Valley clash | The Print | Jun 17 2020

                            Sources said if a patrol team is not carrying firearms, it can be overwhelmed by a larger strength of soldiers from the other side.
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jun 20,, 01:43.

                            Comment


                            • Premeditated action led to clash, will seriously impact ties: Jaishankar to Chinese counterpart

                              Forces on almost war-like alert along LAC, ready to ‘impose costs’ on China

                              ^ I wanted this for a long time, as also tanks and armoured vehicles rolling deep inside Pak territory and finishing the cancer forever.

                              Government tells BSNL to rework tender to keep Chinese out

                              ^ Jio is laying cables for its GigaFibre in my town. They just laid the cable in my lane day before yesterday. On closer inspection, 'Made in China' label was visible. We need to ban all crap non-essential products from China.

                              India-China clash at LAC: 'Boycott Chinese products' chorus grows, massive protests outside Chinese Embassy in Delhi

                              I was against this bullying by the PLA from day 1. If one lets the bully get away once, he gets away twice, and thrice, and this continues. We should punch the bully in his F gut, and then manage whatever comes from that. PLA is not invincible nor are PLAAF and PLAN. We should fire the first shot, and signal our intent, that business as usual won't continue with China.
                              Last edited by Oracle; 18 Jun 20,, 03:34.
                              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                                Forces on almost war-like alert along LAC, ready to ‘impose costs’ on China

                                ^ I wanted this for a long time, as also tanks and armoured vehicles rolling deep inside Pak territory and finishing the cancer forever.

                                I was against this bullying by the PLA from day 1. If one lets the bully get away once, he gets away twice, and thrice, and this continues. We should punch the bully in his F gut, and then manage whatever comes from that. PLA is not invincible nor are PLAAF and PLAN. We should fire the first shot, and signal our intent, that business as usual won't continue with China.
                                Watershed moment

                                India will now impose costs on China whenever it tries its favourite salami-slicing tactics in a bid to incrementally grab territory, a move that marks a decisive change in India's long-standing border management policy to largely maintain “peace and tranquility” along the Line of Actual Control, said top official sources.

                                The “days of walk-in options for the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) are over” said the sources, even as Indian armed forces went on their highest state of alert along the 3,488-km LAC as well as the eastern seaboard after the bloody skirmish in the Galwan Valley region of eastern Ladakh left 20 Indian soldiers dead on Monday night.

                                “Our soldiers will not move back. There will be no compromise on our territorial integrity. China has played this game of cartographic aggression too many times for too long. They transgress into our territory, arbitrarily make claims, keep on repeating them as if they are true, and then paint India as the aggressor,” said a source.

                                This will no longer be allowed, with the PLA being made to “bear losses” for every attempt it makes to grab territory, he added. This tough new line comes after a flurry of meetings in South Block, which included PM Narendra Modi and defence minister Rajnath Singh reviewing the border situation in Ladakh with the top military brass on Tuesday and Wednesday.
                                Yes, it appears we will be more direct next time. Let's see how China tests this. There will be skirmishes at this rate.
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jun 20,, 04:22.

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