Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

[Oracle]

What happened to the Paks morale after the Doklam incident, if the Paks had any morale that is?

[Oracle]

[Officer of Engineers]

Here's a hint to all Indian commentators. LEARN THE GODDAMNED NAMES OF YOUR ENEMY OFFICERS FACING YOU! Then go about telling your theories about the PLA.

In short, no one on the Indian side did their homework.

[Oracle]

Orders from on up as in the Indian military.

Sagat Singh refused to comply at which point he likely would have been informed he was on his own.

Which must have come from the political power structure. Who was the PM then? Indira. She had been given accolades for the Bangladesh Liberation war, of which very little is her part, but no one seems to talk of 1967.

MOD then was Sardar Swaran Singh. The goof-up in critical decision making at the proper political level seems to have flown down from the memories of the 1962 war. Jawaharlal Nehru was the PM of India then.

Jawaharlal Nehru: 1962
Indira Gandhi: 1967

Note: Gen. Pran Nath Thapar was the Army Chief during 1962 war with China. His son is Karan Thapar, the so called, esteemed journalist, the likes of many we can find in western publications like WaPo, WSJ, NYTimes, BBC and so on.

All classified materials should be thrown open to the public, so that we can read and understand what went through the thick skulls of scamgressis at that time, as also Indian military minds. Don't understand why our politicians have such a fcuking thin skin.

[Oracle]

Here's a hint to all Indian commentators. LEARN THE GODDAMNED NAMES OF YOUR ENEMY OFFICERS FACING YOU! Then go about telling your theories about the PLA.

In short, no one on the Indian side did their homework.

Whatever video I posted of AIM (the bald guy), what do you think?

[Officer of Engineers]

Whatever video I posted of AIM (the bald guy), what do you think?

A complete dumbass who pretends to know stuff. Nature of war has changed. Yeah, right. What's the easiest way to take a castle? A donkey loaded with gold. Easiest way to kill an enemy army. Send love letters and gifts to the enemy emperor's wife with the enemy army's general's name on it. Easiest way to destroy an emey's kingdom. Poison the king.

Benign investment. What the hell is that? Is there such a thing? Given a choice, would an invester choose profit or worker's benefits? Was Bipohl benign?

DO YOUR FREAKING HOMEWORK!

[Oracle]

A complete dumbass who pretends to know stuff. Nature of war has changed. Yeah, right. What's the easiest way to take a castle? A donkey loaded with gold. Easiest way to kill an enemy army. Send love letters and gifts to the enemy emperor's wife with the enemy army's general's name on it. Easiest way to destroy an emey's kingdom. Poison the king.

Benign investment. What the hell is that? Is there such a thing? Given a choice, would an invester choose profit or worker's benefits? Was Bipohl benign?

You have said that before.

DO YOUR FREAKING HOMEWORK!

What homework? The GoI doesn't release any classified materials, and I have to do secondary research and ask you. If you think my asking questions is being stupid, you can ignore me. And please stop using CAPS, and try not to be the agony grandpa.

[Officer of Engineers]

What homework? The GoI doesn't release any classified materials, and I have to do secondary research and ask you. If you think my asking questions is being stupid, you can ignore me. And please stop using CAPS, and try not to be the agony grandpa.

Not you. The reference was to the commentators. I don't blame you for any of this. You rely on "experts" who while sound very knowledgable by name dropping but who don't do their homework.

China backed off because India held the high ground. Ok, name the Commanding General who made the decision. What was his reasoning? Because India held the high ground? AIM said that there was no Chinese build up. Doesn't that tell you that China wasn't looking for a fight in the first place? Let's look at this the other way around. If India was so superior, then why didn't they chase the Chinese back to the border or was India too chickenshit to evict an inferior force because in fear of a superior force that she can't win?

Do you see when I say thse goddamned dumbasses DID NOT DO THEIR FREAKING HOMEWORK! Name the Commanding General. What's his background. What commands did he held. Is he a political appointee or a real military man. Oh, one more thing, no one makes PLA General rank by being a coward. CCP inner circles would have eatened him alive. The question then remains is a competent military man. You cannot answer that question until YOU AT LEAST KNOW HIS GODDAMNED NAME!

IT IS SO DAMNED FRUSTRATING TO SEE THESE "EXPERTS" WHO DON'T DO THEIR OWN FREAKING HOMEWORK!

[Double Edge]

Which must have come from the political power structure. Who was the PM then? Indira. She had been given accolades for the Bangladesh Liberation war, of which very little is her part, but no one seems to talk of 1967.

Shastri in '65

MOD then was Sardar Swaran Singh. The goof-up in critical decision making at the proper political level seems to have flown down from the memories of the 1962 war. Jawaharlal Nehru was the PM of India then.

Jawaharlal Nehru: 1962
Indira Gandhi: 1967

Note: Gen. Pran Nath Thapar was the Army Chief during 1962 war with China. His son is Karan Thapar, the so called, esteemed journalist, the likes of many we can find in western publications like WaPo, WSJ, NYTimes, BBC and so on.

They didn't want a two front war. Whether China would do that is another question but it appears they wanted to keep the eastern front quiet. China's bluff partially worked. You see the beginning of the Pak - China nexus coming into play

All classified materials should be thrown open to the public, so that we can read and understand what went through the thick skulls of scamgressis at that time, as also Indian military minds. Don't understand why our politicians have such a fcuking thin skin.

Not until we work out a border settlement. There is no statue of limitations in India so things can remain locked up for as long as they want.

Keep in mind part of the Henderson Brooks report is already out. Neveill Maxwell released it in 2014. It did not offer much that was not already known. The second part remains classified and Neville Maxwell complied with GOI's request for that. The reason it remains classified is I think the govt feels it would prejudice our negotiating position in a final border settlement.

[Double Edge]

Who was the other that retreated? And where did you post it? OMG!

Post #66

During 1965 War between India & Pakistan, the Chinese, in order to pressurise India, gave an ultimatum to India to vacate both Nathu La and Jelep La passes on Sikkim – Tibet border. For some strange reason, 27 Mountain Division, under whose jurisdiction Jelep La was at that time, vacate the Pass which remains under Chinese possession till date.

He does not give the reason. But whoever led 27 Mountain Division at the time at the Jelep La pass.

VK Singh has done an biography of Sagat Singh here but the page that talks about this isn't part of the preview

Needs to be researched and known, under what circumstances he retreated. If you have any leads, please pass it on.

In 1965, during the Indo Pakistan War, the Chinese, in order to help Pakistan, issued an ultimatum to India to vacate Nathu La, Jelep La and the adjacent passes on the Sikkim Tibet boundary. General Manekshaw was the Eastern Army Commander and General Aurora was GOC XXXIII CORPS under whom was 17 Division with Sagat as GOC at Gantok, responsible for Nathu La and Cho La.

Jelep La near the tri-junction of India, Bhutan and Tibet was under GOC 27 Mountain Division. Eastern Command and HQ XXXIII Corps had issued orders to 17 Div and 27 Div that in case of hostilities they were to vacate the posts on the watershed and fall back to the depth positions at Chhangu and Lumthu respectively, leaving behind only observation posts at the passes.

Sagat however felt that the natural boundary was the watershed at the passes and adjoining heights and refused to pull back his troops. Instead, he went about having the border demarcated by laying a wire fence at the pass to clearly demarcate the boundary. Sagat understood that in the mountains, anyone who controlled the heights had an unassailable advantage so he went about strengthening his positions and siting his observation posts from where they could look deep into the Chumbi Valley and bring down effective artillery fire right up to Yatung. There was a lot of pushing and jostling the like of which we have seen recently on TV but Sagat refused to budge and in fact at Cho La which is a few kilometres North of Nathu La there was a fire fight and the Chinese were pushed back a couple of kilometres.

Whilst Sagat’s Division was holding its ground and refusing to vacate the dominating features, the GOC of 27 Division at Jelep La and the Tri-junction area withdrew his troops to the rear positions vacating the dominating heights which were promptly occupied by the Chinese. This domination of the heights is what is making the Chinese assume an aggressive posture.

The defence of this area is critical for India, should we lose it then it is all the way downhill to the plains of North Bengal and the narrow strip of land barely thirty kilometres wide that connects Assam to the rest of the country. Having gained an upper hand at Jelep La, the Chinese felt confident enough to try their luck again at Nathu La in 1967 but here they did not take into account the presence of Sagat.

Having gained an upper hand in 1965 he was not the man to give it up, come what may. He had appreciated that dominating Nathu La was critical to the defence of Gangtok which is a few thousand feet lower and not too far from the pass. Loss of Nathu La would thus endanger Gangtok. So, keeping the national interest in mind, he was prepared to take on the Chinese with all the resources at his command, even at the risk of incurring the disapproval of his superior commanders and putting his career on the line.

Source

[Double Edge]

I really don't understand why do you get so hyper?

OOE has been hammering the point about knowing the names of the opposing sides' commanders since at least 2007 : )

[Double Edge]

China backed off because India held the high ground. Ok, name the Commanding General who made the decision. What was his reasoning? Because India held the high ground? AIM said that there was no Chinese build up. Doesn't that tell you that China wasn't looking for a fight in the first place?

They were not. All they expected was some diplomatic remonstration from the Bhutanese. They never expected India to pick a fight with them that too in a third country.

There's another point AIM brought up in a talk which was missed by reports of the time. The Chinese were conducting exercises nearby. What was not mentioned is they weren't live fire exercises. Yet this was played up at the time as if it was just that.

The late Foreign minister at the time made it clear early in June there would be no conflict.

Let's look at this the other way around. If India was so superior, then why didn't they chase the Chinese back to the border or was India too chickenshit to evict an inferior force because in fear of a superior force that she can't win?

India's stated position was to enforce the understanding both sides reached in 2012. Preserve the status quo.

That was it.

[Officer of Engineers]

India's stated position was to enforce the understanding both sides reached in 2012. Preserve the status quo.

That wasn't my point. My point is that without know the opposing side's intent, you can twist whatever the otherside was doing to your advantage.

[Double Edge]

That wasn't my point. My point is that without know the opposing side's intent, you can twist whatever the otherside was doing to your advantage.

Their intent was clear, build a road through disputed territory in Bhutan as a way to coerce a larger boundary settlement out of Bhutan.

India was not a party to a border dispute between China & Bhutan.

So they thought.

[Officer of Engineers]

Their intent was clear, build a road through disputed territory in Bhutan as a way to coerce a larger boundary settlement out of Bhutan.

India was not a party to a border dispute between China & Bhutan.

So they thought.

What I meant was that the Chinese could claim that India was too chickenshit to evict them from Bhutan and India would be too ignorant of that claim because no one bothered to do their homework on who the decisions makers were and why they made those decisions.