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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • We talk about blockading them but the initial Pak objective was to blockade us (!) By threatening the highway they hoped to interdict supplies to Siachen and starve us out.

    In a recent video, Col. Singh agrees with the board. So i will have to pose the same question to him



    19:44
    Q. Sir so i'm sure there were certain objectives which were set out for the Indian armed forces. In simple terms would you be able to explain to us what they were , what were the political objectives, what were the strategic objectives and what were the directions given to the commanders ?

    A. okay you mean the political directions. Well, the directive in a nutshell was Indian territory will be cleared of all intruders. It was as simple as that. But there was a political caveat it also said to do so the line of control will not be crossed either by the air or on ground.

    This had an enormous bearing on the operation because the initial plans when they were discussing of course contingency like all good military soldiers do, one thing that came across rather than attack them frontally let's go behind attack their bases. These guys would be starved and fall to death.

    Since you could not across the line of control those plans were scrapped and then involved direct assaults straight onto the enemy
    He gets asked point blank about blockade here and like the officer he is replies in the affirmative.

    32:07
    Q. In hindsight, i'd like to still ask you, diplomatically it was a big win for us by not escalating the war, but tactically speaking sir would it have been easier just to surround them. Of course escalating it, crossing the line of control and just talking tactically, not strategically, this was something that has been debated so much ?

    A. Yes, had we been given a free hand to move behind and capture the bases we would have not suffered the casualties we did having to make frontal assaults on a well entrenched enemy on the heights.

    But in the overall scheme of things, the political, the military, the global perception, everything, the response which we eventually chose was the correct one
    So he so does side with the govt in the end.

    I was wondering why they withdrew, Col. Singh says their supply lines were being taxed and as they lost posts, others became isolated. Each post that fell was reoccupied by us.


    Could we face another Kargil ? Yes !!

    45:09
    Q. I have a very very simple question, do you think the Pakistanis could do this again to us or even the Chinese for that matter ?

    A. Of course, it's happened already hasn't it. When the Chinese moved into their side of the lac last march what was it ? It was the same thing in a different sector.

    And even now look at the loc and the lac, it's physically impossible to man every inch of it.

    Absolutely, Kargill can be repeated in different places at different times.

    We have to evolve a methodology based on intelligence, surveillance and rapid reaction forces to ensure it can be contained should it ever occur again
    Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Jul 21,, 11:04.

    Comment


    • "Global perception?" You've got to be shitting me! Dehli made the absolute wrong decision NOT to cross the border. Even China said Pakistan was in the wrong. Not only that, ask 10 PMs/Presidents/Kings/Queens outside of South Asia where Kargil is and I will guarrantee you that all 10 will have to ask someone else. The Victor writes the history. Politically speaking, in the international relm, there would have been ZERO difference had India chosen to collapse the LOC instead of a frontal assault. No one outside of South Asia cared.

      Could India do another Kargil. Sure, you did it once. Should India do another Kargil - for fuck sakes NO! The last thing any soldier should do is to repeat fighting the last war.
      Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 19 Jul 21,, 10:55.
      Chimo

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Oracle View Post

        #1. India will never be subservient to an American task force. Never happened, will never happen.
        Here's a thought.

        US allies in the east don't talk to each other. US alliance architecture is hub and spokes.

        So Korea, Japan & Taiwan talk to the US but not each other. And i maintain this is because the other two won't talk to Taiwan due to their one China policy.

        Not the same with the quad. Where all three can independently work with each other without going through the Americans.
        Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Jul 21,, 11:26.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          "Global perception?" You've got to be shitting me! Dehli made the absolute wrong decision NOT to cross the border. Even China said Pakistan was in the wrong. Not only that, ask 10 PMs/Presidents/Kings/Queens outside of South Asia where Kargil is and I will guarrantee you that all 10 will have to ask someone else. The Victor writes the history. Politically speaking, in the international relm, there would have been ZERO difference had India chosen to collapse the LOC instead of a frontal assault. No one outside of South Asia cared.
          1) Global perception here means the Americans. But two nuke powers escalating does have global ramifications.

          We tested a year earlier and were in the doghouse. That was a contributing factor.

          Clinton sanctioned us so his U turn a mere year later based on the decision not to cross the LOC (ie. not escalate) got them to side with us.

          Made the case clear to the world who the aggressors were.


          2) From an operations pov, the conflict is contained and easier to plan and manage. No surprises or fronts will be opened elsewhere.


          3) How things go after we crossed the LOC, where it escalates to are factors that the govt was concerned about.

          Funds. We did not have the half trillion plus foreign exchange reserves we enjoy today.

          Back then thanks to US sanctions we were scrounging around for foreign exchange.

          GOI issued bonds with good returns around the time which i purchased when i was in NYC.

          Was so heavily subscribed they discontinued within a month because they already raised $5bn.


          4) The Kashmir insurgency was starting to wane. A major conflict could reverse gains made during the decade.


          5) Col. Singh thinks further escalation could have set the economy back a decade just at the time it was about to surge forward.

          In the end whether to cross or not is about confidence. We're more sure of ourselves today than back then.

          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          Could India do another Kargil. Sure, you did it once. Should India do another Kargil - for fuck sakes NO! The last thing any soldier should do is to repeat fighting the last war.
          Whether China or Pakistan could repeat a Kargil on India in the future is the point being made.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Jul 21,, 12:08.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            Global perception here means the Americans. But two nuke powers escalating does have global ramifications.
            Pakistani nukes were duds.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            Col. Singh thinks further escalation could have set the economy back a decade just at the time it was about to surge forward.

            In the end whether to cross or not is about confidence. We're more sure of ourselves today than back then.
            Take a page from China - Bargin Basement Prices.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            Whether China or Pakistan could repeat a Kargil on India in the future is the point being made.
            And my point is don't count on the Pakistanis nor the Chinese to repeat those mistakes Pakistan made during Kargil. Don't fight the last war.

            Chimo

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              Did the InN ever got their asses handed to them? If not, no, you have NOT been exercising nor training with the Americans. And yes, we chewed American butt as well got our butts chewed. Learn what doesn't work and fix them; not end of exercise flyovers dog and pony shows,
              Which military wing exercises are you referring to ?

              Here's the thing. Who complained when your navies exercised ? nobody

              The same applies to quad. Do the govts of quad countries care any more what China thinks of the matter.

              2005 Malabar concluded with a war at sea exercise. Can't have that without live fire. Yes ?

              2007 Malabar had larger fleets working together.

              What happened. China sent demarches to all three quad countries and the Aussies bailed soon after.

              We like to blame the Aussies but we also tempered the pace of our naval exercises by resisting the participation of the Japs.

              It wasn't until 2014 that we invited them back.



              As for the hardest exercise with the Americans. That would be Red Flag.

              How many times has India done that ? just twice. 2008 & 2016. Quite a long gap between the two. We did get beat in 2008.

              They turned off beyond visual radar. Limiting factor here is cost. Red Flag is $25m a pop.

              Posted already the busy exercise schedule with the InN. There's exercises for the other two wings too.

              Click image for larger version

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              Adds up. So training as you fight is great. We'll have to scale down our exercises then. Go for quality instead of quantity.

              2020 Red Flag was cancelled.



              There was COPE in 2002, 2005. 2008 was transport units only. And then 2018

              U.S. Jet Fighters Are Back in India For Wargames (The Last Two Times, the Indian Air Force Won) | NI | Dec 07 2018

              Advantage with Red Flag is it goes on for four weeks. COPE only goes for two weeks.
              Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Jul 21,, 14:23.

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              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                And my point is don't count on the Pakistanis nor the Chinese to repeat those mistakes Pakistan made during Kargil. Don't fight the last war.
                Best plan for China is not to fight us in the mountains

                - Get the Paks to do it. They have more experience than the PLA.

                - Alternatively use technology. Trouble with this idea is it increases the distance between combatants. How do you mop up ? you don't

                The only way wars in the mountains have been won is by taking on the mountains which the Chinese clearly lack the ability to do.

                Oh! they can surprise us but not much else.

                What else is left. A lightning quick deep advance into India. Now not fighting in the mountains. The mountains don't matter. They've over them already.

                Then what ?
                Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Jul 21,, 20:05.

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                • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                  Which military wing exercises are you referring to ?
                  What? InN as in the Indian Navy. Did Indian ships got their asses handed to them so that they can learn what their mistakes are and how to fix them. Those are REAL exercises, not dog and pony shows.

                  COPE reflects reality. We don't go for dogfighters anymore. A missile can do more g's than a human body can withstand. Let the missile do the work.
                  Chimo

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    Best plan for China is not to fight us in the mountains

                    - Get the Paks to do it. They have more experience than the PLA.
                    You're make the number 1 mistake that everyone makes who have not gone to Command School. You're assuming the Opposing General is not as smart as you are or that the Pakistanis are superior mountain fighters and you're basing this on what? A couple of brawls?.

                    The very fact that the Chinese yielded their positions when it became unattainable should tell you that they could see you coming and not to committ to an impossible defence. Abandoning an unattainable position is a sign of military prowess, not amateurism.
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • https://theprint.in/defence/china-in...rategy/701028/

                      India has starting moving it's 1st Corps in to the Ladakh Theater. 1st Corps was earlier focused on Pakistan.

                      This would be on top of existing divisions which are already closer to LAC. I am guessing PLA will have to move some of units westward.

                      Last edited by n21; 23 Jul 21,, 21:55.

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                      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        You're make the number 1 mistake that everyone makes who have not gone to Command School. You're assuming the Opposing General is not as smart as you are or that the Pakistanis are superior mountain fighters and you're basing this on what? A couple of brawls?.
                        Then tell me what is smart about the PLA to date. All i see are a bunch of bumbling fools led by an even bigger one in Beijng.

                        I have more respect for Mushraf in the mountains than the PLA. The guy spent two days inside Indian territory and we were none the wiser. Feb 99. it was a good month after we begin to sense something is amiss. They'd already completed emplacing themselves securely by then. Such is the element of surprise.

                        And they were not brawls. 500+ men dead in Kargil alone.

                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        The very fact that the Chinese yielded their positions when it became unattainable should tell you that they could see you coming and not to committ to an impossible defence. Abandoning an unattainable position is a sign of military prowess, not amateurism.
                        Way i read it is we put pressure on them.

                        Sure sign of a bully is to retreat when that happens.

                        We are not doing it in the remaining areas and so they stay put.

                        So we continue to build leverage for the day that happens.

                        The jokers want us to separate border from the relationship. We said nothing doing.
                        Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Jul 21,, 00:15.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by n21 View Post
                          https://theprint.in/defence/china-in...rategy/701028/

                          India has starting moving it's 1st Corps in to the Ladakh Theater. 1st Corps was earlier focused on Pakistan.
                          It's all one big training exercise

                          “This is part of the re-orientation training. This is not a permanent deployment as they will come back to their stations after some time. They will be replaced by the rest of the elements from the particular Corps. The Strike Corps will come into play when there is a need,” a source told ThePrint.

                          This development comes at a time when China continues to amass thousands of soldiers close to the Line of Actual Control (LAC) and carries on with heavy military construction activities on its territory, which is a clear indication that it is preparing itself for the long haul.

                          Originally posted by n21 View Post
                          This would be on top of existing divisions which are already closer to LAC. I am guessing PLA will have to move some of units westward.
                          Having less on the eastern front or for their navy. Two can play at this game.

                          If the balloon goes up we retake Aksai Chin. Snap their connections between Tibet & Xianjiang.

                          There's also PO J&K which snaps their connection with Pakistan.

                          hehe, looks like we threaten them more than they threaten us. They haven't got a hope at the Chicken's neck.
                          Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Jul 21,, 00:59.

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                          • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                            What? InN as in the Indian Navy. Did Indian ships got their asses handed to them so that they can learn what their mistakes are and how to fix them. Those are REAL exercises, not dog and pony shows.

                            COPE reflects reality. We don't go for dogfighters anymore. A missile can do more g's than a human body can withstand. Let the missile do the work.
                            If it happened it remained behind closed doors.

                            Can China just ignore these exercises thinking them to be harmless ?

                            In the last decade we've made purchases that make us more effective at sea.

                            The next decade will bring further improvements.

                            Indian Ocean is a big place. Americans are working with the Indonesians now to build more maritime awareness.
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Jul 21,, 00:25.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                              If it happened it remained behind closed doors.
                              What? That defeats the purpose of learning. You WANT the lessons to spread far and wide. You want others to know where and how you fucked up. What lead you to make the wrong decisions. How to recognize those mistakes before they become fatal. At times, you may not have made mistakes in which case, your mistake was not to have a contingency. Close door sessions DO NOT lead to brain storming across the entire navy.

                              One of my lessons is that a bad plan cannot be executed into a good plan just because I stayed up and watch it unfold realtime; hoping to make changes in real time.

                              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                              Can China just ignore these exercises thinking them to be harmless ?
                              I would. Nothing here threatens their area of interests. These exercises are as much of a threat to Chinese SCS islands as they are to Canadian Baffin Islands. You want to scare the Chinese? Hold the exercise within sight of those SCS islands. Otherwise, they can and do ignore them.
                              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 25 Jul 21,, 01:10.
                              Chimo

                              Comment


                              • Two interesting developments over the last week

                                A Taiwan Contingency and Japan’s Counterstrike Debate | The Diplomat | Jul 22 2021

                                If the loss of Taiwan is so important to Japan then when do they plan to exercise with the Taiwanese ?


                                China threatens Japan with nuclear war over intervention in Taiwan | Business Standard | Jul 23 2021

                                This has been doing the rounds on Indian channels.

                                It's the kind of BS that Mike called out a while ago.

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