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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    They still need enough suriving numbers to punch through the American defensive screens.
    Right, this is the point i was making.

    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    They need to beef up the SCS and that means money. In your case, defund the army. In our case, defund the nukes. Sucks to be SCS countries though.
    it means we should do it. Back in 2018 it might have been provocative, today not so much.

    Getting ASEAN onboard is the challenge.

    Holding RIMPAC 2020 in the SCS will only work if it is part of a much broader U.S.-led multinational effort that includes economic, diplomatic, and informational “fronts” to assert the “rule of law” and national interests. If it’s just RIMPAC 2020 and nothing else, few if any countries will join; rightfully fearing that if they do, afterwards they’ll be alone to face a really angry China.
    This will require quite the campaign by the Biden administration

    More than saying the US is back.

    He was serious about quad. The test of quad is whether ASEAN comes closer in a years time or not.

    This is going to take time. A sustained effort.

    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    This is the Big Boys Game. You don't get to play by Little Boys Rules.

    Don't see it. India, like China, wants to play the Big Boys Game with Little Boys Rules.
    What does India have to lose compared to ASEAN by holding Malabar in the SCS ?

    If RIMPAC is done there we have no excuse. It would be quad countries.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 09 Jul 21,, 18:46.

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    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      it means we should do it. Back in 2018 it might have been provocative, today not so much.
      This will mean

      1) India will strip money from thge InA to the InN. Indian ships will have to build the capability to challenge Chinese home waters.
      2) Become an American commanded task force.
      3) Subservent to American policies.

      Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      Getting ASEAN onboard is the challenge.
      Yada, yada, yada. Every single one of these countries, including India, wants one single thing - to have the USN do the dirty work for them. The fact remains. There is only one alliance that would scare China shitless - Taiwan-South Korea-Japan and that is not going to happen. Anyone else relies on the US. Most prefer, including India, the US to go it alone.
      Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 10 Jul 21,, 06:54.
      Chimo

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      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        OOE, you've always said it would be easier to win Kargil by blockading people on the heights than to take them.

        But that requires your army to be able to surround them.

        The Paks held 160 posts at the start of Kargil.

        To be able to surround them you'd have to go around, there would be passes to get through. They'd be blocking them

        What do you do ? you have to fight them to achieve the objective of surrounding.
        Not just me. The good Brigadier Ray has already stated that this was the original battleplan until Dehli vetoed it. The InA had already determined the LOCs were under stressed. Pakistani veterans of that war stated they were under water shortages, ammo shortages, and food shortages.

        Furthermore, there wasn't multiple depots. There was only one. You don't hit all the passes. You just hit one - the one supplying the outposts.
        Chimo

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        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          Not just me. The good Brigadier Ray has already stated that this was the original battleplan until Dehli vetoed it. The InA had already determined the LOCs were under stressed. Pakistani veterans of that war stated they were under water shortages, ammo shortages, and food shortages.
          Still sending men into a meat grinder. in the end its relative. I can't say whether it would have been easier, the same or harder.

          There's mountains all over. To get that lasso around you have to take passes. Remember, 5 men can hold back a company, to get that company to storm the post requires a battalion in the rear for support.

          Watch the videos the good colonel narrates and you will get an idea.

          Musharaf cannot gamble we won't cross the LoC. He will assume we will do just that and plan for it. And he knows what to do given his Siachen experience.

          Then again maybe he figured fait accompli once it dawned on the Indian side the scale of the job at hand. He would expect we would not try.

          India has to secure those routes. Very difficult job.

          Despite the army's objection, govt got the job done.

          How they gambled Clinton would play ball is a mystery but he did.

          I guess we made it clear to the Americans we would stick at it come whatever.

          Paks holding Kargil means we cannot resupply Leh. In those days there was just the one road from Srinagar.

          Ladakh is isolated and up for grabs.

          We hold Siachen to prevent the Paks & Chinese from linking up and launching a pincer on us.

          To stop a potential 2 front fight at the point it begins is the best reason i can give you for India holding Siachen.

          Actions taken almost forty years ago have certainly paid dividends today and will do so into the future.

          IA knows it can hold the state come what may

          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          Furthermore, there wasn't multiple depots. There was only one. You don't hit all the passes. You just hit one - the one supplying the outposts.
          How can they resupply 160 posts with just one depot ?

          So the plan was to hit that depot and game over ?

          3 months in we managed to clear 40-45 out of 160 Pak held posts at the cost of 500+ men.

          What's to stop them setting up more.

          More depots and more posts ?
          Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Jul 21,, 16:42.

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          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            There's mountains all over. To get that lasso around you have to take passes. Remember, 5 men can hold back a company, to get that company to storm the post requires a battalion in the rear for support.

            Watch the videos the good colonel narrates and you will get an idea.
            The Colonel is being paid to tag you along. Any military man can see through his stance.

            Know how since WWII. What's the best way to take a bridge? Both ends at once. What's the best way to take a mountain pass? Both ends at once. What's the best way to take a fortified position. Attack from front and rear.

            You've got helicopters.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            How can they resupply 160 posts with just one depot ?
            They didn't. They supplied those under pressure and starved the rest.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            So the plan was to hit that depot and game over ?
            The plan was to occupy the supply depot.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            What's to stop them setting up more.

            More depots and more posts ?
            Lack of LOCs. The reason why they had a supply depot is because they had to build up the supplies. The LOC to that depot cannot sustain continued combat operations. They didn't even have a proper reserves. Kargil was a gamble. They had to keep it under Indian radar. Build the LOC needed to supply a division size force (and frankly given what the InA sent to the area, you needed a division size force) and there goes the element of surprise.
            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 12 Jul 21,, 18:30.
            Chimo

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              This will mean

              1) India will strip money from thge InA to the InN. Indian ships will have to build the capability to challenge Chinese home waters.
              2) Become an American commanded task force.
              3) Subservent to American policies.
              #1. India will never be subservient to an American task force. Never happened, will never happen.
              #2. US left Afghanistan in a mess. Post US exit - where is the talk of human rights, democracy, girl education and shit load of other things the west lectures India about?
              #3. Pakistan Army and the ISI fooled you all again, isn't it? What are you gonna tell your grandchildren - there was this PA and ISI, they hooked you up for 50 years and more, America ignored the islamic nukes they're building for strategic depth, Pakistan took 100s' of billions of dollars, never gave you what you've wanted, fucked you with USAMA Bin Laden, and fucked you still.
              Last edited by Oracle; 17 Jul 21,, 17:37.
              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                #1. India will never be subservient to an American task force. Never happened, will never happen.
                You do realize that I'm merely pointing out what is the result if DE wants the USN integration that he imagines to be happening.

                Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                #2. US left Afghanistan in a mess. Post US exit - where is the talk of human rights, democracy, girl education and shit load of other things the west lectures India about?
                Welcome to the Great Game and it's a Big Boys Game. India better start learning how to play it if she wants to be part of the Big Boys Club.

                Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                #3. Pakistan Army and the ISI fooled you all again, isn't it? What are you gonna tell your grandchildren - there was this PA and ISI, they hooked you up for 50 years and more, America ignored the islamic nukes they're building for strategic depth, Pakistan took 100s' of billions of dollars, never gave you what you've wanted, fucked you with USAMA Bin Laden, and fucked you still.
                Pakistan is a bitch but she's our bitch. Great Game again. Pakistan paid more in blood, treasure, and territory than we did for our stint in Afghanistan.
                Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 17 Jul 21,, 18:06.
                Chimo

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  Yada, yada, yada. Every single one of these countries, including India, wants one single thing - to have the USN do the dirty work for them. The fact remains. There is only one alliance that would scare China shitless - Taiwan-South Korea-Japan and that is not going to happen. Anyone else relies on the US. Most prefer, including India, the US to go it alone.
                  True. India didn't even sent boots into Afghanistan. QUAD is, IMO, an useless bogey created to scare the Chinese and the Russians. Most scholars talk about Indian tilt towards the west, and how Russia would respond being militarily kind to Pakistan. No one talks about Russia losing India to the US, and the enormous shit, Russian FP have to deal with then. Putin is shrewd, clever than Xi could ever be. Xi is the one fighting for survival, not Putin.

                  Also, I don't understand how well will the QUAD militarise, with the Indian Navy. If not systems, then it has to be comms.
                  Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    You do realize that I'm merely pointing out what is the result if DE wants the USN integration that he imagines to be happening.
                    Not read WAB in a long time. But can the QUAD work as independent nations under a rotating flag, much like UN peacekeeping? This would please India, and give room to the current political dispensation to breathe.

                    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    Welcome to the Great Game and it's a Big Boys Game. India better start learning how to play it if she wants to be part of the Big Boys Club.
                    India has learnt it, Sir. Indian civilians need to grasp this concept much better now. And, my statement was for the US left. It was not directed at you.

                    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    Pakistan is a bitch but she's our bitch. Great Game again. Pakistan paid more in blood, treasure, and territory than we did for our stint in Afghanistan.
                    This is the type of talk that makes no sense. How is Pakistan US' bitch? She played USSR, then US, playing China for some years now - which will be evident soon. Terrorism is Pakistans national game, and Afghanistan is its playground. No country ever saw fit to snatch that piece of geo-strategic depth (Afghanistan) away from Pakistan. Every drop of blood that Pakistan has shed is expendable, the billions of dollars that Pakistan received rests with the Generals whose favourite retirement conclaves are either the US or UK or Dubai.
                    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                      Also, I don't understand how well will the QUAD militarise, with the Indian Navy.
                      Delhi's call. They're the one insisting on keeping mil out of quad. How long for.

                      In the 70s we worked with the Soviets as we need to work with the US going forward.

                      When it comes to US India relations Delhi is the one slamming the brakes not the Americans.

                      China can safely assume we're in bed with the Americans. They put us there.

                      Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                      If not systems, then it has to be comms.
                      We've been exercising with the Americans since 1992. Almost thirty years now, you mean to tell me these navies still can't work together ?

                      Yeah we can, people are being tight lipped about capabilities and i have to think that is how Delhi wants it.

                      AIM pushes the integration line too much.

                      Comms was fixed with COMCASA.

                      All this integration shit is just twenty years old. How did allies work before that.

                      Pretty well. Got things done.

                      I'm sticking with what i said, either we win together or we lose.

                      Things are falling in place slowly. Theaterisation is a step in the right direction.

                      I've been exploring how "integrated" the US is with its own Asian allies and it ain't no NATO. Far from it.

                      It's still loose. Oh, they will work under the Americans (the bit OOE bangs on about) but what about the part that comes after that.

                      Fighting together. How far from ready ? Posted Col. Newsham's critiques on this here already.

                      THAT is the part that counts and it ain't there. Japan is dragging its feet. Taiwan has its own issues. Koreans only care about the North.

                      INDO-PACOM commanders asking for up to $30bn to shore up regional deterrence. Part of that is for more training because they ain't doing enough.

                      But for reasons unknown to me this line is put out India still can't work with the US.

                      Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jul 21,, 22:53.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                        Terrorism is Pakistans national game, and Afghanistan is its playground. No country ever saw fit to snatch that piece of geo-strategic depth (Afghanistan) away from Pakistan. Every drop of blood that Pakistan has shed is expendable, the billions of dollars that Pakistan received rests with the Generals whose favourite retirement conclaves are either the US or UK or Dubai.
                        If the Taliban can stand up to NATO then they sure as hell can with the ISI & China. Meaning how effectively can the ISI control the Taliban ?

                        For so long i heard Paks & Afghans are brothers, why do the Paks build a fence with the Afghans then.

                        Why do they want a quiet border with us all of a sudden. Do they expect things to hot up on their western one ?

                        People make out as if the Paks are winning but their problems as well a China's are about to begin.

                        The Uighurs will get a boost. That will suck China in. About bloody time China stopped freeloading off NATO to stabilise their back yard.

                        Highly recommend you listen to what Gen Shankar has to say about this. Either that or his blog.

                        Aadi's been ramping up his output of late. All good stuff.
                        Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jul 21,, 22:21.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          The Colonel is being paid to tag you along. Any military man can see through his stance.
                          At the risk of misrepresenting Col. Singh i want you to understand what i've written above are my thoughts extrapolated from his explanations of operations in the 80s INTO the hypothetical of blockade.

                          I should ask him what he makes of this idea of blockade. He seems responsive to comments on his channel.

                          As i can find next to no commentary elsewhere on the hypothetical of blockade except as mentioned on this board.

                          You military guys think alike, like with any other profession. For all i know he might agree with you.

                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          Know how since WWII. What's the best way to take a bridge? Both ends at once. What's the best way to take a mountain pass? Both ends at once. What's the best way to take a fortified position. Attack from front and rear.
                          When you and the late Brig. Ray were discussing blockade over a decade ago nobody on this board had a clue about mountain warfare.

                          Thanks to China's antics over the last year, we've all had a crash course of sorts and understand better earlier operations in the mountains.

                          This gives me some insights to more closely examine this idea of blockade.


                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          You've got helicopters.
                          Stingers. Which were already used to down some of our aircraft.

                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          Lack of LOCs. The reason why they had a supply depot is because they had to build up the supplies. The LOC to that depot cannot sustain continued combat operations. They didn't even have a proper reserves. Kargil was a gamble. They had to keep it under Indian radar. Build the LOC needed to supply a division size force (and frankly given what the InA sent to the area, you needed a division size force) and there goes the element of surprise.
                          I'm still of the view that it would be harder than you make out.

                          Losing the element of surprise is a major reason why i think they'd reinforce whatever routes we'd take to surround them and set up more depots.

                          How do you take a pass ? by neutralising defenders on the heights defending them. Along the crests. That's a long bloody fight.

                          Imagine having to do that from one pass to the next and so on until you surround them....

                          Look, we got them to surrender. To withdraw from 120 posts. This is the main reason i say the govt got it right meaning least cost in terms of lives.

                          Why the Paks surrendered is still a mystery to me. Their bluff got called ?

                          Clinton saying U.S. will be hands off and let the Indians do whatever scared them ? that means they were not a challenge to us back then and sure as heck are not one now.
                          Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Jul 21,, 11:06.

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                          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            Stingers. Which were already used to down some of our aircraft.
                            Restricted to LOS. Why go over when you can go around and what the hell is wrong with night insert?

                            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            I'm still of the view that it would be harder than you make out.
                            It's a hell of a lot easier to collapse 1 LOC than to take 160 strongpoints.

                            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            Look, we got them to surrender. To withdraw from 120 posts.

                            Why they did that is still a mystery to me.

                            Americans saying we will be hands off and let the Indians do whatever scared them ? that means they are not a challenge to us and sure as heck are not one now.
                            You can look up the history but the point remains that the InA first thought envelopment.

                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                              We've been exercising with the Americans since 1992. Almost thirty years now, you mean to tell me these navies still can't work together ?
                              Did the InN ever got their asses handed to them? If not, no, you have NOT been exercising nor training with the Americans. And yes, we chewed American butt as well got our butts chewed. Learn what doesn't work and fix them; not end of exercise flyovers dog and pony shows,
                              Chimo

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                                Not read WAB in a long time. But can the QUAD work as independent nations under a rotating flag, much like UN peacekeeping? This would please India, and give room to the current political dispensation to breathe.
                                Don't know and frankly I see nothing coming out of this. Japan and Australia have no interest in the Indian Ocean and India does not want to leave the Indian Ocean. No one wants to commit to a common defense plan.

                                Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                                India has learnt it, Sir. Indian civilians need to grasp this concept much better now.
                                It's an ever changing game with a hell of with one common theme. Complaining ain't enough. You have to risk assets.much like what the InA is doing now. You have to put them in harm's way, daring the Chinese to act. Can't see that happening with the InN sailing to those Chinese islands anytime soon.

                                Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                                This is the type of talk that makes no sense. How is Pakistan US' bitch? She played USSR, then US, playing China for some years now - which will be evident soon. Terrorism is Pakistans national game, and Afghanistan is its playground. No country ever saw fit to snatch that piece of geo-strategic depth (Afghanistan) away from Pakistan. Every drop of blood that Pakistan has shed is expendable, the billions of dollars that Pakistan received rests with the Generals whose favourite retirement conclaves are either the US or UK or Dubai.
                                Great Powers Game. If India gets too big for our liking, we have Pakistan left to keep her down just like we did with China and bottle her up with Japan.

                                That was why the British went into Afghanistan in the first place back in the late 19thC to early 20thC. To prop the locals up to resist a Russian advance.

                                Chimo

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