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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    You're joking, right? There has not been one live fire exercise in any QUAD get together. All you've had is a bunch of ships that learned to sail together. Not a single one conducting hostile engagements on, I don't know, how about ASW and interceptions. The last exercise at Malabar consisted of a single US destroyer, not even a task group.

    Now, let's compare that RIMPAC, 32 Naval vessels and seven submarines conducted actual naval warfare exercises including live fire.

    Plug and play? No Indian Admiral is qualified to command a US Naval Task group wheras NATO Naval Officers were assigned as 2ICs for decades. To get such plug and play will require India to do the one thing she's not willing to do - submit to American command, ie give up her indepent policy making.

    Dog and Pony show.
    U.S. Navy Conducts Multinational Gunnery Exercises in Indian Ocean, Philippine Sea | Nov 2020

    What's this ^

    You mean to tell me live fire exercises have never been conducted in the numerous years of exercising with quad members. How long have then been exercising ?

    30 years with the Americans next year, 8 with Japan and 6 with RAN.

    If its a dog and pony show show why keep it up this long ? for what purpose are these navies exercising with each other every year.

    Why were the Aussies so keen to join Malabar ? not like we didn't exercise with them earlier.

    We don't get a lot of details of what goes on at these exercises and so detractors are making up stuff as a result.

    The Indian navy chief said the navies are highly interoperable and they can handle a military contingency. That is big news.

    He said the ultimate goal was inter changeability. That means all this talk about inter-operability has been addressed and is better than what commentators think.

    Inter changeable like say US Marine F35's on a British carrier. A good example.

    Inter changeable will require a tighter chain of command.

    The Indian Navy chief thinks that would be a good idea.

    You see where things are going ? the Indian Navy is ok with the idea.

    This is what i wanted to do here, discuss how that can happen.

    here is another

    Malabar-2020 Wargames Have Shown "Extraordinary Degree Of Interoperability" Among Four Participating Forces: Indian Navy | BW | Nov 21 2020

    Elaborating the unique features of the wargames, Rear Admiral Krishna Swaminathan, Flag Officer Commanding Western Fleet said, "Malabar 2020 was the 24th edition of the Malabar series of the multilateral naval exercises that the Indian Navy participated in."

    He further said, "Although there were many unique aspects of our this particular edition three stood out as being extraordinary.

    First, it was pronounced for the first time that the exercises was conducted in two phases. The first phase in the Bay of Bengal and the second in the Arabian Sea. Thereby, locating the exercise in both seaports in the Indian peninsula for the first time.

    Second, it saw the participation of all four possible member navies -- the US Navy, the Japanese maritime self defence force, the Royal Australian Navy and the Indian Navy. Thereby, making the quorum complete for the first time after a long gap.

    Third, it is on the extraordinary degree of what we call intra-operability among forces of the various nations."
    Calling the Malabar exercise a success, Rear Admiral James A Kirk, Commander CSG-11 (Nimitz group), in his video message said that that the US, India, Japan and Australian naval forces have proved "the ability to operate together across a broad range of missions"
    "Malabar 2020 has been a success. US and Indian naval forces alongside Japanese and Australian partners has proved the ability to operate together across a broad range of missions. Our carriers and their embarked arriearing have executed missions together.

    US and Indian maritime patrol aircraft have integrated with our ships and aircraft effectively demonstrating our ability to hunt submarines and execute live fire.

    During this 24th Malabar exercise our navies have achieved an impressive level of inoperability. As fellow democracies we share values," he said.
    Navy chief is just reiterating what was said last Nov.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 28 Apr 21,, 15:01.

    Comment


    • I'm more disappointed in you than anything else. I woiuld have thought that for this long you would have learned enough to know what is a good group exercise and what is individual training. Tell me, what possible integration could there be for a single destroyer to shoot down a target tug? Use that brain of yours. You've be here long enough to know what is a group exercise and what is not.

      You would have gotten more if InAF planes made simulated attack runs on the American destroyer. At least both sides will get something out of it. The Indians would learn how to or how not to attack an American destroyer and vice versa. You know the diference between RIMPAC and MALABAR? An OPFOR and a SINKEX. At least with a SINKEX, you actually learn what it takes to sink a ship.

      Side note: Those are some brave men dragging that target tug. Damned easy to mistake a radar lock.

      Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      The Indian navy chief said the navies are highly interoperable and they can handle a military contingency. That is big news.

      He said the ultimate goal was inter changeability. That means all this talk about inter-operability has been addressed and is better than what commentators think.
      And me and every other uniformed member knows that is a whole bunch of crap. We don't share accoustic databases. We don't show you ASW patterns. There are things we do not share outside of treaty allies. You know. Things that actually need a co-ordinated group to get things done.

      You remember the Chinese training in Canada beore CDS Vance cancelled it. The Chinese were trained in Winter Surivial (eat a rabbit's brain), not Winter Warfare. Yeah, the press got it wrong but so did I (it didn't feel right) until I dug into it more. Why were the Chinese doing Winter Warfare in Canada when the Russians were better at it and why are we showing how we did Winter Wafare? The answer was we didn't. It was a Dog and Pony show. Yes, we got to taste raw meat. You have to when you need nourishment and can't get a fire going in time. Get worms from raw meat? Swallow some gunpowder. I supposed the Chinese learn that there is a difference reading a book and actually having to do it. Still, a Dog and Pony Show.

      The same thing here. Is QUAD doing any acutall alliance work or is it all for show? How about an actual Officer Exchange with real taskings and not a study course?

      Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      Inter changeable like say US Marine F35's on a British carrier. A good example.
      You do know that RN Captains have commanded American carriers. British, Canadian, and Australian pilots have been American carrier qualified. You do know that non-American NATO Admirals have commanded American Carrier Task Forces.

      You seem to think a USMC squadron is a big deal for the QE II. We call it a Tuesday.

      Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      Inter changeable will require a tighter chain of command.

      The Indian Navy chief thinks that would be a good idea.

      You see where things are going ? the Indian Navy is ok with the idea.

      This is what i wanted to do here, discuss how that can happen.
      You know what that needs BEFORE any of this can happen? SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE! That is a POLITICAL decision, NOT a military one. QUAD is not an Asian NATO.

      And do you want to know how easy it is for the Chinese to collapse this? All they have to do is ... nothing. The only common thread is the Americans. Japan and Australia are converned with the SCS and India with the Indian Ocean. If the Chinese don't push, then there is zero incentive for the Indians to come into SCS or the Australians and the Japanese to come into the Indian Ocean. Here's the thing, the Chinese can't push. They're not big enough nor good enough to challenge real blue water navies. Who in their right mind would give a PLAN task force a chance in hell against the Indian Navy in the Indian Ocean?
      Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 29 Apr 21,, 07:34.
      Chimo

      Comment


      • Finally some news from the border after a long time.

        The present disagreement is about the sequencing of the withdrawal.

        The Chinese want to de-escalate (thin out from the back) before disengagement (pulling back from the front line)

        The Indian side wants disengagement to precede de-escalation because other wise they can come back quickly whenever they want.

        Keep in mind that Sumdurong Chu from '86 took nine years (took until '95) to settle so this current standoff isn't going to see a drawdown for some time to come.

        No estimates of numbers given but my guess is 5 divisions minus those that were deployed at pangong.

        Eastern Ladakh: Chinese Formations Undertaking Rotation | Bharat Shakti | Apr 27 2021

        April 27, 2021; By: Nitin A. Gokhale

        Indian military and intelligence sources have revealed, that the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) has rotated two large field formations it had deployed along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh in 2020-21 by inducting two fresh divisions earlier this month. In 2020, China’s move towards the LAC with India after finishing the annual spring exercise in Aksai Chin was led by the 4th and the 6th Divisions. They have now been replaced by the 8th and the 11th Divisions, the latest assessments show.

        Troops of the 4th and 6th Division, which had spent almost 10 months in the high altitude area and were involved in the tense standoff with Indian soldiers from May 2020 to February 2021 before disengaging in the first phase from the north and south bank of Pangong Tso, were stationed in the Chinese bases, 60-70 km from the LAC until they started going back to their permanent bases in Xinjiang for rest and recuperation over the past three weeks, sources added. This swap keeps intact the number of Chinese troops meant for deployment along the LAC at par with what it has been since last year.

        Both these formations are part of the Xinjiang Military Division and are officially known as Highland Mechanised Infantry Divisions. Their replacements have also come from the same military division and more or less have the same composition of troops and equipment. The 8th and the 11th Motorised Infantry Divisions both reportedly have two motorised infantry regiments, one armoured regiment, one artillery regiment and one anti-aircraft regiment.

        Indian military planners have deduced two main points from this Chinese move: One, the Chinese PLA troops also need—like Indian soldiers–frequent rotation because of the difficulties of prolonged deployment in super high-altitude areas and two, the Chinese have no intention as yet of de-inducting from the Aksai Chin area which means more discussions and negotiations are in store between Corps Commanders in the coming months.

        Two rounds of Corps Commander level talks after the first phase of disengagement in February have already taken place to finalise the resolution of the standoff at Depsang, Gogra and Hot Spring areas. Very little headway has been made in the last two rounds, although both sides have officially maintained that they will remain engaged.

        Indian satellites and intelligence operatives have picked up the movement of other formations from Tibet and Xinjiang to their annual exercise areas north and east of the Tibet Highway (G-219)—much farther from the LAC—in areas such as Xiadulla, Tianshuii Hui, Kanxiwar etc. Those movements are under constant watch and there is no reason to be alarmed at the moment, military decision-makers say. However, given last years’ experience, the guard is up and adequate forces have been kept in-depth on the Indian side. Many of the troops are freshly inducted in the past couple of months and have undergone extensive acclimatisation, sources say.

        Like the Chinese, India has also reorganised and rotated its formations in Ladakh to ensure adequate rest to those who were deployed eyeball to eyeball last year.

        The 39 Division, rushed into Ladakh in May-June 2020, is gradually going back to its peacetime location in Himachal Pradesh and will continue to be the Northern Command reserve. It has been replaced by freshly arrived troops from Jammu and Kashmir.

        India has now inducted a Rashtriya Rifles Force (equivalent to a Division) in Eastern Ladakh. This force will be responsible for securing areas south of the Pangong Tso.

        The 3 Infantry Division, for long the only Division-level force under 14 Corps, has been entrusted with the security of areas north of the Pangong Tso. Additional brigades drawn from other formations are also available to 14 Corps for any contingency in Ladakh.

        Elsewhere too, India is beefing up its resources all along the northern borders as detailed in this piece in January (https://bharatshakti.in/india-to-all...-china-border/)

        The spring-summer months this year is likely to witness further fine-tuning of the plan to rebalance Indian military forces (both the Army and the Air Force) to the northern borders even as the western front against Pakistan remains a perpetual area to be watched. The reorientation of the Indian military in treating the northern front as the primary challenge—which began slowly almost 15 plus years back—has now well and truly gathered speed.

        In the long run, the Chinese would perhaps wonder if they were instrumental in quickening the pace of change in India’s ORBAT (Order of Battle), thanks to their provocations in Doklam and Eastern Ladakh.
        Last edited by Double Edge; 30 Apr 21,, 17:42.

        Comment


        • This is the other development

          China deploys long-range rocket launcher ‘as deterrent to India’ | SCMP | Apr 19 2021

          General Shankar's take



          https://www.facebook.com/IndiaToday/...7756582938143/
          Last edited by Double Edge; 02 May 21,, 16:32.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            Anyone who touts launch-on-warning is no expert.
            The Chinese Colonel was lying. Outright lying. That is the part that took me by surprise.

            Writes 95% true and then slips something in.

            Mike caught it and did the next best thing. Exposed it.

            It means have to be careful about ex-mil commenting in Chinese media. Others will be more subtle.

            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            Douglas MacArthur was a vet. Didn't stop him from making a fool of himself.
            You are most likely referring to this

            Catastrophe on the Yalu: America’s intelligence failure in Korea | Brookings | Sept 13 2017

            Sobering read. Funny how iron brother Stalin does not want to commit troops to help Mao. That's the first crack in their relationship.

            Mao needs to do what he wants and is ready to risk a nuclear war to get it.

            The thing that gets me is if Nehru was so confident about our ambassador in China to warn the Americans about an impending Chinese attack in Korea how did he get it so damn wrong in '62 when it mattered the most

            He surrounded himself with yes men like Mack did and the result was predictable.

            KM Pannikar was quite sharp. He's written about Chinese entering the Indian Ocean back in the 40s as their trade interests would dictate it.

            The lesson from Korea is when the Chinese make a threat take it seriously. And this has a bearing on Taiwan.

            I'm not getting good feedback about funding for this PDI initiative. Still up in the air. Other theatres also need funds

            Listen To America’S Top Commander In The Indo-Pacific And Fund The Pacific Deterrence Initiative | WOTR | Mar 31 2021

            Adm Davidson wants $5 bn a year for five years or $27 bn to fund PDI. To address this eroding deterrence.

            Will he get it ? we will know this month

            One might assume supporting such an urgent request from the American commander closest to the most pressing threat would be a no-brainer. Decision-makers in the Pentagon, admittedly, confront the unenviable task of balancing finite resources with a plethora of expensive requests from all of the geographic combatant commands. Given the severity of the threat from Beijing, however, one might assume urgent and repeated requests coming from the Indo-Pacific would carry more weight in Washington.

            Unfortunately, too often, that would be a poor assumption. Despite a willingness to use the overseas contingency operations account — the main warfighting account with the least restrictions on its use — to fund a similar program in Europe, staff in the Office of the Secretary of Defense and the military services have persistently opposed using the same account to fund the Pacific Deterrence Initiative. That leaves only finite base-budget funding, which funds everything else the Department of Defense does, and the Office of the Secretary of Defense and the services are reluctant to divert that funding away from other programs. Accordingly, Indo-Pacific Command finds key Pacific Deterrence Initiative priorities perennially unfunded as the military balance of power in the Pacific continues to erode.
            It's the Pentagon holding things up !!!
            Last edited by Double Edge; 03 May 21,, 03:41.

            Comment


            • Lessons for the Pacific From The European Deterrence Initiative | Breaking Defense | Aug 28 2020

              Benjamin Franklin famously wrote, “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” While Franklin was certainly not thinking of national security policy, the United States would be wise to apply the principle to deterring aggression from Beijing.

              The Pentagon should consider lessons from a similar effort in Europe, sparked when the U.S. failed to apply Franklin’s principle before Russia’s 2014 invasion of Ukraine and illegal annexation of Crimea. Distracted elsewhere and confused regarding Putin’s intensions, Washington allowed the military deterrence of Moscow in eastern Europe to atrophy. Putin saw his opportunity and sprang into action.

              Following Moscow’s aggression in Crimea and fighting in eastern Urkaine, the United States belatedly created the European Reassurance Initiative, later called the European Deterrence Initiative (EDI). According to testimony in February from Gen. Tod Wolters, the commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Europe, EDI has increased “forward-stationed and rotational forces,” funded exercises and training, built partner capacity, and improved prepositioned stocks and vital military infrastructure.

              EDI, Wolters says, has been “critical to our deterrence and posture successes.”

              That is exactly what the United States must do without delay in the Indo-Pacific.

              Some in the Pentagon are concerned that a PDI might reduce the Department of Defense’s flexibility, but it is past time to substantively align U.S. budgets and programs with rhetoric regarding the importance of the Pacific. As Rep. Mac Thornberry, ranking member of the House Armed Services Committee, has said: “It is time to put our money where our mouth is.”

              To do that effectively in the Pacific, three lessons from Europe are particularly instructive.

              The first is: waste no time in getting started. Before Moscow’s aggression in Ukraine, Washington dithered and ignored warning signs. Russia’s 2008 invasion and occupation of large portions of Georgia, as well as subsequent military reforms, should have set off alarms.

              The United States must not make the same mistake when it comes to the Chinese Communist Party’s activities in the Indo-Pacific.

              The warning signs regarding the CCP are already manifest in Hong Kong, along the border with India, in the South China Sea, and in the seas and skies surrounding Taiwan. The top U.S. military officer in the Indo-Pacific has warned that the U.S. military balance of power with China continues to become “more unfavorable.”

              Washington should not wait for Beijing to invade Taiwan or attack U.S. vessels in the South China Sea to get ready.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                The Chinese Colonel was lying. Outright lying. That is the part that took me by surprise.

                Writes 95% true and then slips something in.

                Mike caught it and did the next best thing. Exposed it.
                You have a habbit of beating a dead horse. We know why launch-on-warning is a bad idea and it has nothing to do with technology. Why do you feel the need to go over this over and over again?

                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                It means have to be careful about ex-mil commenting in Chinese media. Others will be more subtle.
                It's the same thing with other sources of intel. You go over the raw intel and not the conclusions. Even then, those "experts" (which includes me) may come to wrong conclusions from time to time. For example, I no longer rely on Jeffery Lewis nor Hans Christensen on their evals because they came up with conclusions that simple went against the raw intel, ie the Iranian missile strikes against American bases. Lewis called the one strike a demonstration of Iranian accuracy while dismissing the other strike (only hit desert nowhere close to the American base) as an outlier. A combined 70% failure is not an accurate strike and even then, there are questions about did the 30% even reached the right buildings.

                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                More than that. MacArthur's greatest failure in Korea was to not recognize the Chinese LOCs had collapsed. Had he turned around after Kapyong, he would have smashed two Chinese armies and ended the Korean War right there and then.

                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                Sobering read. Funny how iron brother Stalin does not want to commit troops to help Mao. That's the first crack in their relationship.

                Mao needs to do what he wants and is ready to risk a nuclear war to get it.
                Nuke Warfare 101. Mao was more than ready to fight a nuclear war with Soviet nuclear assets.

                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                The thing that gets me is if Nehru was so confident about our ambassador in China to warn the Americans about an impending Chinese attack in Korea how did he get it so damn wrong in '62 when it mattered the most

                He surrounded himself with yes men like Mack did and the result was predictable.

                KM Pannikar was quite sharp. He's written about Chinese entering the Indian Ocean back in the 40s as their trade interests would dictate it.

                The lesson from Korea is when the Chinese make a threat take it seriously. And this has a bearing on Taiwan.

                I'm not getting good feedback about funding for this PDI initiative. Still up in the air. Other theatres also need funds

                Listen To America’S Top Commander In The Indo-Pacific And Fund The Pacific Deterrence Initiative | WOTR | Mar 31 2021

                Adm Davidson wants $5 bn a year for five years or $27 bn to fund PDI. To address this eroding deterrence.

                Will he get it ? we will know this month

                It's the Pentagon holding things up !!!
                It's a budget fight. Who in their right mind would give the PLAN a chance in hell against the USN. American support for Taiwan's defence is political, not military. The USN parking a Carrier Group oin the West side of Taiwan sinks all hope of Chinese ships even getting out of port.

                Chimo

                Comment


                • MacArthur's list of failures is long and undistinguished.
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • I always got the feeling that MacArthur was promoted about 3 steps above his level of incompetence. He shoulda stayed a 1, maybe 2 star.
                    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                    Comment


                    • The USN parking a Carrier Group oin the West side of Taiwan sinks all hope of Chinese ships even getting out of port.
                      these days, this would be a political statement more than a military one, ie the use of a carrier group as a "speed bump" to let the Chinese know that Uncle Sam is going to fight it out.

                      the killing capes would likely come from elsewhere.
                      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                      Comment


                      • Summary of developments from the last few months



                        I still don't get a clear answer as to how many are deployed at the border. So I'll assume we're still pointing at each other with 5 divisions a piece.

                        There is a disengagement at Pangong. But this only means there is a gap between forces. Said forces are still deployed nearby in the same numbers.

                        We are readying two strike corps to handle any contingencies. One for Ladakh and the other for the Eastern sector. Each will have an exclusive AO.

                        We're not going to be able to negotiate otherwise if they make future advances into disputed areas and then just squat there. Taking the Kailash range like we did last Aug end surprised them becaue it threatened their garrison at Moldo and exposed their supply line from Rutog to the area. Instrumental in getting them to disengage from Pangong six months later.

                        The two strike corps will be essential in maintaining a defensive offense posture. We have to be able to take the fight to them when necessary. Defending alone isn't enough any more.

                        Bhutan had a border group meeting at Kumning recently which did not go well. The Chinese were dictating solutions that were inimical to India and the Bhutanese had our back.

                        Question is how long can Bhutan keep this up ? Pressurizing the smallest power in the region to accede. We will need plans to broaden the fight in the future. Defend longer stretches of the Bhutanese border.

                        One of the comments i heard was 2020 was a dry run to probe our defenses and evaluate our response. This year will be quiet due to the CCP's centenary as will the year after for the winter olympics. If there is to be any action it will come mid 2023. They will try again with a better plan.

                        The intent is to humiliate Modi so he loses the 2024 elections and we end up with some weak coalition like in the past. HAH! this sounds like some Indian opposition wishful thinking. They can't beat Modi at the polls so there is always the CCP and failing that Biden. The Indian opposition would prefer that the CCP collude with Biden to liberate India from Modi

                        We will continue our infrastructure buildup regardless of what they think and will be prepared.


                        According to Nitin the message from China is

                        - India is on its own when it comes to defending its land borders and cannot rely on help from others.

                        We realise this already but there is always the chance of the Americans colluding to create diversions in the SCS. So not entirely alone.

                        - If India gets aggressive in the maritime sphere then China can keep India tied down at the border.

                        This is a two way street. We too are doing the same to them as well and can keep them tied down at the border and slow down their rise as a maritime power.

                        - China is the pre-eminent power of the region

                        Every interaction with the PLA has seen the Indian army grow its morale. The commentary is we think the Paks make tougher fighters. The Indian officers i hear are not impressed with the discipline of the PLA and believe we can prevail in the mountains if required. CCP's carefully constructed PR is showing its cracks with each engagement.

                        Shiv already posted the video of their barracks with the oxygen lines. What for ? if you are at that height then you are supposed to acclimate. We won't come and fight PLA in their barracks, PLA will have to fight us out in the open and won't have their oxygen. Not sit in their barracks and push buttons to control drones which we can down or fire off rockets which we can respond with our own.

                        Those pics are just to encourage PLA to serve in the area but it shows a primary weakness already. PLA ain't fit to fight in the mountains to start with.

                        We do not fear this paper dragon of only child soldiers
                        Last edited by Double Edge; 06 May 21,, 18:16.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          Those pics are just to encourage PLA to serve in the area but it shows a primary weakness already. PLA ain't fit to fight in the mountains to start with.

                          We do not fear this paper dragon of only child soldiers
                          Really think you've missed the point. Which is cheaper? Throw men that far up and tell them to suck it up or throw men that far up and supply them with oxygen WHEN NEEDED. It's not like they goto eat and sleep with tubes in their noses. They're acclimated. What your video actually showed that the Chinese have enough money to waste to supply oxygen to their barracks. That also means that they have enough monies to keep their munitions and privisions well stocked.

                          Again, since when is a kung fu fight a measure of modern military prowess? The Chinese is not above throwing men into meatgrinders.
                          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 07 May 21,, 00:53.
                          Chimo

                          Comment


                          • Click image for larger version  Name:	swamy kailash.jpg Views:	0 Size:	63.6 KB ID:	1573443

                            See, you're not informing us. You're just twisting facts about.

                            They are rotating troops there like we have. You cannot expect people to sit there non stop forever. So they are not adding or reinforcing but refreshing.

                            DIFFERENCE !

                            The CCP plan was to move in rapidly, pandemic is on, India caves, fait accompli. PLA SUCCESS !!

                            India didn't cave and those conscripts that expected to get back in September ended up spending all winter in the mountains freezing their butts off.

                            They will be so eager to return for the next adventure with India. Yes ?


                            What bloody attack ? they were deployed non tactically to begin with. Unless things change there will be no attack. Just more squatting.

                            We are watching them so there can be no surprise attack.

                            This giving up Kailash whine can be countered with a simple reduction to absurdity challenge.

                            We can use Kailash as leverage to solve ENTIRE border issue

                            The military decided to do a swap, one that the Chinese would accept and in doing so got them to vacate Pangong and created a buffer zone. They don't patrol to finger 4, we don't patrol to finger 8. The area in between is a no man's land. Already the case in Depsang for a while now.

                            This was an operational decision taken by people with knowledge of the ground. Not imposed by the PMO or MEA.

                            Mixing political rhetoric with defense matters is a recipe for confusion.
                            Last edited by Double Edge; Yesterday, 02:27.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                              I'm talking about just Taiwan & Japan here. Not Korea for the historic reasons you mentioned.

                              I do not see a problem with Taiwan & Japan working together presently. In one of the talks i heard recently a Taiwanese commentator was advocating for joint Taiwan & Japan Maritime patrols as a way to surprise China. As for quad & Taiwan he wanted more intel sharing.
                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              Not going to happen for the very simple reason that PRC-Japan territorial disputes are the same as Taiwan-Japan territorial disputes.
                              Exactly why PLAN sent its ship through the Miyako strait. But there comes a point where working together is better than not.

                              Taiwanese, Japanese warships track Chinese frigate | Taiwan News | May 03 2021

                              Taiwan and Japan Track China Warship Together in Apparent Team-up at Sea | Newsweek | May 04 2021

                              BY JOHN FENG ON 5/4/21 AT 6:38 AM EDT00:22

                              Senior defense officials in Taiwan were coy about the country's military collaboration with Japan when quizzed on Monday about satellite imagery showing an apparent joint surveillance operation of a Chinese warship in the East China Sea.

                              Defense Minister Chiu Kuo-cheng told reporters that Taiwan was cooperating with a number of friendly parties but said he could not disclose information about specific departments.

                              On Saturday, Japan's Defense Ministry said the People's Liberation Army (PLA) frigate Binzhou had passed through the Miyako Strait into the Western Pacific the day before. The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force later deployed an Abukuma-class destroyer escort and two maritime patrol aircraft as the single Chinese warship traveled north via the narrow waters between Taiwan and Yonaguni, Japan's westernmost inhabited island, which lies less than 70 miles from Taiwan's east coast.

                              Satellite images dated May 1, however, revealed an additional detail not present in the announcement by the Japanese Defense Ministry—a Taiwanese warship also appeared to be in the vicinity, seemingly monitoring Binzhou as it returned to the East China Sea.

                              In the same frame, a Taiwanese navy Kee Lung-class destroyer can be seen sailing about 6 miles west of the Chinese and Japanese warships. Taipei's Apple Daily described it as the first joint surveillance operation between Taiwan and Japan.

                              Taiwan's defense officials, however, did not corroborate the newspaper's view that Taipei and Tokyo had collaborated over the weekend.

                              Defense Minister Chiu said Taiwan dispatches ships and aircraft to monitor any People's Liberation Army assets operating within designated areas.

                              "It's not about specific cooperation with any country. That's inappropriate [to disclose]," Chiu told reporters. "With regard to national defense, we will monitor whenever required."

                              In a recent report sent to Taiwan's lawmakers, the Defense Ministry said it was sharing intelligence with the American Institute in Taiwan (AIT)—the de facto U.S. embassy in Taipei—regarding Chinese navy movements in the Western Pacific and in the South China Sea.

                              Asked whether the ministry had shared Saturday's operations report with the AIT, Chiu said he was "not at liberty" to name specific departments.

                              His deputy, Chang Che-ping, offered a similar response when quizzed by lawmakers at a defense committee hearing, also on Monday. He offered no comment on reports supposing cooperation between Taiwanese and Japanese forces.

                              Chang confirmed that Taiwan had tasked a Kee Lung-class destroyer to shadow Binzhou, whose crew was likely on a training and intelligence-gathering mission. Chang said the vessel "did not pose a serious threat" to Taiwan's security.

                              The PLA warship's appearance in the Western Pacific on Friday coincided with the Chinese military flying five planes into Taiwan's air defense identification zone (ADIZ). According to Taipei's Defense Ministry, a Chinese Y-8 anti-submarine warfare aircraft crossed the Bashi Channel, south of the island, before turning back.

                              Lu Li-shih, an instructor with Taiwan's naval academy in the southern port city of Kaohsiung, said the warplane likely linked up with Binzhou for anti-submarine exercises.

                              Like the Miyako Strait, the Bashi Channel serves as one of the few international waterways the Chinese navy can use to exit the first island chain. Its additional strategic significance at the mouth of the South China Sea is often cited as the reason behind the PLA's increased warplane activity in the southwest corner of Taiwan's air defense zone.
                              There isn't any official confirmation here but that is by design. They play it down so China cannot make an issue of it but the message has been sent.

                              Keep at it and add more partners like PH, Vietnam and even Korea in time.

                              Make Taiwan the hub and have others collaborate with her

                              Excellent development
                              Last edited by Double Edge; Yesterday, 20:52.

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                              • That's garbage reporting. The Taiwanese were watching both the PLAN and the JSDMF. If this was collaborated affair, the Japanese would have handed off the surveillance to the Taiwanese and gone home. You don't need two warships to watch a single PLAN firgate. I'd be very careful with APPLE DAILY. They have a reputation of publishing fake news. Again, look for the raw intel - that a Taiwanese destroyer was trailing Japanese and ML Chinese warships. There's zero evidence of colloboration between Taiwan and Japan and their behaviour definetely do not reflect co-operation.
                                Chimo

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