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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • You really need to learn about tongue in cheek
    Chimo

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    • I couldn't find the Indian defence thread, so posting it here.

      Boeing tests Super Hornet for Indian Navy

      So many things happening, and so much confusion.
      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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      • This should be a no brainer. Navalized Sukhois. Your logistics are already in place and HIND is already doing the maintenance. But intelligent choices are really too much to ask for from any government.
        Chimo

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        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          This should be a no brainer. Navalized Sukhois. Your logistics are already in place and HIND is already doing the maintenance. But intelligent choices are really too much to ask for from any government.
          Sugar-coating it.

          But intelligent choices are really too much to ask for from the Indian government.
          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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          • Japan is making it clear to China that relations will not become normal unless security concerns are first addressed



            Sounds like the same plan India is following
            Last edited by Double Edge; 30 Dec 20,, 22:30.

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            • Originally posted by Oracle View Post

              Sugar-coating it.

              But intelligent choices are really too much to ask for from the Indian government.
              Hate to break it to you. India ain't unique. Witness the Canadian F18-F35-SUPERBUG-Australian F18 fiasco.
              Chimo

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              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                Hate to break it to you. India ain't unique. Witness the Canadian F18-F35-SUPERBUG-Australian F18 fiasco.
                So, apart from America, all democracies suck when it comes to weapons acquisition, or in other words spending.

                The other thing I had in mind for Navalized Sukhois that you bought up, my guess is India is moving away slowly from a 70% Russian arsenal. Not so fast, since we don't want to piss the Russians off so that they start selling to the Paks and also lose a vote in the UNSC. Have good diplomatic relations with the Russians, but diversify weapons purchases, more from the western market, and Israel. Also, the nightmare of Russian spares and kits would forever bear on the minds of the forces.

                Another thing I wanted to talk about is the mindset. I read somewhere that the Indian military doesn't trust America. Then why are both countries participating in so many combat exercises? Malabar Naval exercises started from 1992, IIRC, before India conducted its 2nd nuke tests. Government directive, which they have to follow? Or just plain goodwill. I think this mindset is from the head of the forces, and will change with the newer generation in the years to come. You have access to men and minds, so I would like try and understand what you have to say about this.
                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  So, apart from America, all democracies suck when it comes to weapons acquisition, or in other words spending.
                  Nope. Every arsenal have their problems. Take for example the 1st Sino-Vietnam War. Chinese logistics was human mules. I mean 1000s of men carrying supplies on their backs, not even the 4 legged kind. 80% of the Russian nuclear arsenal need 3 weeks to be prepped for war. You think India has spare parts problems? The Russians routinely raid their airplane graveyards for spare parts.

                  And there are American fiascos. The much touted Strategic Defence Iniative and the Future Combat Systems wasted $billions with not even a prototype being produced. Then, there is the muich touted 6.8mm replacement round but while the improvements are significant, the cost of switching over from the 5.56mm could not be justified.

                  Lert's not ignore the Russian 5.45 and the Chinese 5.8. While on paper, these rounds are superior to the 5.56 but you're producing these things at a 1000 rounds per $35. Whatever advantage you have disappeared in QA.
                  Chimo

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                  • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    CFBs Valcartier, Petawawa, Gageotwn, and Suffield are not mountainous. They represent the Fulda Gap more than anything else. The only thing I can think off is the Chinese are trying to learn Winter Warfare reccee and masking but again, the Russians are more keen to that than we are.
                    According to Cleo Pasquale PLA is doing much more with the Russians



                    China is a wannabe Arctic power. They want to be in that space and the more they get to train with others the better.

                    Their only route there is through Russia.

                    How this works out i don't know but where there's a will .....



                    On a side note that war of 1812 wasn't really a Canada US war.

                    More like a British empire against the US

                    So who really burnt down the US capitol, eh

                    Wonder what the border conflicts between US & Canada were like then

                    Any time the Brits look weak ie. Napoleonic wars, presents an opportunity for the US to expand manifest destiny and grab territory up north. This sparked 1812. Didn't work out.

                    US buys Alaska from Russia because it would be a good way to surround Canada.

                    Russia does not mind selling because they don't want the Brits off their coast and hope to weaken the Brits.

                    Alaska + west coast = pincer on BC

                    British Columbia will only join Canada if a railroad is built to allow British troops in for defense.

                    Enter Chinese immigrants to build that railway and save Canada ? the start of China Canada relations

                    The purchase was in 1867, couple years after the civil war ended and this is what the Americans were thinking ??

                    Suppose there were some scores to be settled because Confederate money was being channeled through Canadian banks to wage economic warfare on the US with the intent to crash the greenback.


                    Later on there was a war plan put together in 1920 about how Canada would invade the US !!!

                    Defense Scheme #1

                    Because there was still this fear of being gobbled up by the US.

                    Three pronged attack, west coast, mid west, montreal push down, destroy all critical infrastructure.

                    Then retreat and wait for a bail out from the Brits.



                    The Americans not to be taken by surprise had their own invade Canada plan which was a counter to this one.

                    They called it War plan red.
                    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Jan 21,, 01:33.

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                    • Longer version of her talk is here, which gets into Chinese influence in Canada

                      The China Canada link is a pretty long one. Going on over a century and a half.

                      300k Canadians in HK alone.

                      Canada recognises China in 1970. Nixon would only arrive there a year later.

                      Ten years earlier Canadian wheat was being sent to China to take the edge of the GLF.

                      Right through the '62 war and then the Canadian loan of nearly half a billion to China to buy Canadian wheat & barley.

                      Still they arrested Meng Zhou and this is with Justin in office with a minority govt.

                      Going soft on China means Justin tells Trump he can't do that.

                      Didn't happen.

                      How did the lefty partners not stall this.

                      US Canada split would be in China's interest but it isn't so easy to pull off.

                      US remains Canada's first trading partner. China is at number 3.

                      China invites the First Nation leaders to sell them on telecoms. They can get it done cheaper than Canada.

                      Do the same with the eskimos

                      Chinese telecoms in Nunavut, not too far from the NORAD base too.

                      She thinks if Justin can come back with a majority then Huawei is in
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Jan 21,, 01:38.

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                      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        On a side note that war of 1812 wasn't really a Canada US war.

                        More like a British empire against the US
                        On this side of the border, it was viewed as a Canadian War. It was a war in which Canada stated unequivically that we are not Americans. Canada, as a nation, came together with new regiments being raised specifically to fight the Americans. The other people who saw the war as their own and not the British was the Tecumseh Confederacy. The British was just their allies. However, the First Nations lost but Canada was saved ... by the Canadians.

                        As for the First Nations buying Hwawei, yeah, that ain't happenning. They get their monies from Ottawa. Last I checked, COVID shut down their casinos. So, whatever Ottawa says goes, not the other way around. Don't know who she is but an expert in Canadian politics she ain't.
                        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 03 Jan 21,, 06:34.
                        Chimo

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                        • o
                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          On this side of the border, it was viewed as a Canadian War. It was a war in which Canada stated unequivically that we are not Americans. Canada, as a nation, came together with new regiments being raised specifically to fight the Americans. The other people who saw the war as their own and not the British was the Tecumseh Confederacy. The British was just their allies. However, the First Nations lost but Canada was saved ... by the Canadians.
                          How much agency did Canada have back then ? Your provinces only start to form 1870's onwards.

                          Canada as we know it now did not exist back then.

                          She did mention the not Americans bit, but I understood that sentiment developed later.

                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          As for the First Nations buying Hwawei, yeah, that ain't happenning. They get their monies from Ottawa. Last I checked, COVID shut down their casinos. So, whatever Ottawa says goes, not the other way around.
                          This is the part i found surprising, she said Ottawa would let First Nations have the money so long as they could form a majority govt. Sounds like an election ploy.

                          Out there isolated in the wilderness they need the connectivity.

                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          Don't know who she is but an expert in Canadian politics she ain't.
                          Only recently heard her on the Stratnews channel. Very interesting Quebecoise

                          https://www.fdd.org/team/cleo-paskal/

                          https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/user/cleo-paskal

                          She looks sooo French



                          This looks like the compact version of what PLA was doing in Canada.

                          Because so what...

                          Global Affairs Canada (Canada's foreign office) thinks the Military should not have a say here at all, lol, typical :|

                          It does seem like different arms of govt run at counter purposes.

                          Canada and Russia in particular should not be entertaining China in the Arctic.

                          Then again maybe neither see China becoming a threat there. Ever.

                          Unlike Australia China does not need to buy pols in Canada because they have deep ties with the top that go back decades.

                          Still, i'm surprised things took such a turn for the worse. Only because of Meng Zhou. That was a big ask from Canada. You delivered.

                          What was the need to abduct the two Michaels.

                          Throw away decades of good will ? over what...

                          This is the problem, i keep forgetting the concept of friend does not exist with the CCP.

                          Out of the five eyes Canada gets the least flak from the CCP.

                          The CCP sense Canada is moving away from hedging and towards alliance. They lost Canada.

                          The long relations with China makes one think Canada would be ripe for the picking by the CCP.

                          But after listening to her i don't get that impression at all. I don't expect any Kevin Rudd like behaviour from Canada.

                          If Justin can't pull it off no one can. His dad first visited China back in 1949.

                          It feels as though in Ottawa, as in many capitals around the world, the political and business communities are keen to continue business as usual with Beijing, while the defence, security and intelligence sectors are trying to fight for a change of direction. Those voices can use all the outside support they can get given the old, deep and entrenched pro-Beijing elements in Canadian politics.

                          India burned through its China lobby crucible in Galwan and came out the other side a beacon for those desiring comprehensive national defence—blazing the way with app bans, FDI investigations, visa scrutiny, defence partnerships and more. Rather than criticise India’s internal issues, Canada would do well to learn from New Delhi’s external actions. Before too long, Canada will likely need India more than its Ottawa-based civil service can possibly imagine.
                          https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/n...mbedded-canada

                          Article of her talk at China Unscripted
                          Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Jan 21,, 23:10.

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                          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            How much agency did Canada have back then ? Your provinces only start to form 1870's onwards.

                            Canada as we know it now did not exist back then.

                            She did mention the not Americans bit, but I understood that sentiment developed later.
                            Not sure what you're asking. We were loyal British subjects but London was an ocean away. What we had on hand was all we had and we were severely outnumbered and outgunned by the Americans. It would have been impossible to repel the Americans without Upper and Lower Canadians taking up arms. The most famous case is LCol de Salaberry, a French Canadian, who raised, armed, and trained the Canadian Voltigeurs, again French Canadian militia. The Voltigeurs were instrumental under de Salaberry at the Battle of the Chateauguay in saving Montreal against a numerically superior force. de Salaberry was so well respected that British Officers transferred from the regular British Regiments into the Voltigeurs for the rest of their careers.

                            There were a lot of British Officers who fell in love with Canada and made it their homes. General Issac Brock is a Canadian hero even though he was British borned.

                            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            This is the part i found surprising, she said Ottawa would let First Nations have the money so long as they could form a majority govt. Sounds like an election ploy.

                            Out there isolated in the wilderness they need the connectivity.
                            The First Nations need a lot of things. Cell phones ain't on the list. They have been getting by with CB radios and now you want them to pay $80 a month for somthing they've been doing for free? Is anyone going to put up a cell tower for 12 people? Villages of 100 or so already got internet via the military or the RCMP. No one is going to spend $2mil just so 12 people can skpe.

                            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            Only recently heard her on the Stratnews channel. Very interesting Quebecoise
                            Never heard of herand from what you posted, ain't an expert on China nor Canada. It wasn't even Winter Warfare but a Winter Survival training ... which frankly, open a book.

                            DND and Foreign Affairs have been at loggerheads for decades. We have zero respect for each other and quite frankly, we ignored everything Foreign Affairs says. As for China disrupting the US-Canadian Alliance, on what freaking planet? We worried about Trump because he can make our lives miserable. We don't give two fucks what Xi thinks. We bent over backwards for the new NAFTA. China bans our soybeans? Boohoo. We ain't changing squat to please Xi.

                            Chimo

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                            • As a student of American military history I can tell you quite a number of Canadians existed in 1775 when they defeated an American force led by Benedict Arnold and RIchard Montgomery at Quebec....and a whole bunch of times from 1812-1814.

                              Not to mention they kicked ass on some Fenians in 1866.
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

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                              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                This should be a no brainer. Navalized Sukhois. Your logistics are already in place and HIND is already doing the maintenance. But intelligent choices are really too much to ask for from any government.
                                Su-33's were considered and rejected back before the Gorshkov acquisition. They are simply too big for both the Gorshkov (Vikramaditya) and the Vikrant.

                                Even the F-18 and Rafale are unlikely to be acquired because the deck lifts on both carriers are sized exactly to fit the folded wingspan of the Mig-29K and nothing larger. Neither the F-18, nor the Rafale-M can fit as is. While we didn't have any option on the Gorshkov, the deck lift size problem on the Vikrant is an issue created solely by the IN itself. They have no one else to blame.

                                This test by Boeing is just a PoC to show the IN that the aircraft can takeoff from a ski-jump. Nothing much is likely to come out of it even if the IN would like it to thanks to the precarious budgetary situation and the very long list of pending acquisitions for all 3 services.
                                Last edited by Firestorm; 05 Jan 21,, 06:51.

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