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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      Your view at the time was doctines aren't written in stone and need to evolve. Well, that is all well and good but this was going in a direction that increased crisis instability.
      Deterrence requires work. In fact, more work and thinking than warfighting. Warfighting needs one thing above all else - money. If nothing else, you can buy off the enemy (best way to take a castle is a donkey loaded with gold). Deterrence requires you to constantly read the enemy, the ground ... and yourself. Things change. Missile defence rendered the Chinese nuclear arsenal near useless and thus required an expansion to maintain a semblance of deterrence. Just because things work today does not mean things will work tomorrow.

      However, like all things, we're human and we do read things wrong. Chinese man-made islands whose goal was to deter American interference in what they perceived as Chinese waters. The question is can we correct things when we do read things wrong. Chinese islands may not stop Western naval powers but the locals ain't doing FNOPS.
      Chimo

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        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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        • Take a guess who's behind this protest.
          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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          • Post-Doklam, China developing military camps in depth areas along LAC

            This is what real salami slicing of the communists looks like. The good thing that has come out of this crisis is, it has awaken the pathetic bureaucratic dumbness in modernising the military. Not at the pace at which I would have wanted though. At least the thinking, that China can be managed diplomatically without resorting to war, has changed.
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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            • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              Myanmar. This is Myanmar. Pick your butchers and go with it but don't ever try to pretend that your butchers, including the government, are anything but butchers. For India to pretend that they're siding with angels in Myanmar is ... a blatant lie.

              Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              Post-Doklam, China developing military camps in depth areas along LAC

              This is what real salami slicing of the communists looks like. The good thing that has come out of this crisis is, it has awaken the pathetic bureaucratic dumbness in modernising the military. Not at the pace at which I would have wanted though. At least the thinking, that China can be managed diplomatically without resorting to war, has changed.
              Oh for God sakes, this is an extreme poor example of Orwellian doublespeak. Chinese miliary camps in depth areas. Translation:Platoon Houses, Company CP, and Battalion HQ. Where the hell do you expect the men return to after their patrols? Beijing?
              Chimo

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              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                Myanmar. This is Myanmar. Pick your butchers and go with it but don't ever try to pretend that your butchers, including the government, are anything but butchers. For India to pretend that they're siding with angels in Myanmar is ... a blatant lie.
                Do you have any recent, as in a decade, proof, that India assists terrorists based in Burma to stage attacks inside China? Take 2 decades. I can give you sources from the last 7 decades, in which China, leaving terroristan aside for a while here, aided/armed North-East Indian terrorist groups. Paresh Barua is in Yunnan province.

                Oh for God sakes, this is an extreme poor example of Orwellian doublespeak. Chinese miliary camps in depth areas. Translation:Platoon Houses, Company CP, and Battalion HQ. Where the hell do you expect the men return to after their patrols? Beijing?
                You did not get my point. The PLA is here to stay. Not their land, but they have made those camps, and are here to stay (same as those islands in SCS). This is salami slicing. China is what it is today because of your Governments, and some of you. You do not give China the attention that it deserves, you joke away about China's military strength (yeah I joke too, but I share the threats). I understand that China's military strength is nothing infront of your combined firepower, but China is getting powerful everyday, bit by bit. China might not be a threat to your way of life, but it is a threat to us. We share a border, while your country lays isolated in snow and peace. Soviet Russia dismantled, and all slept in peace since then. Still sleeping.

                The day a democratic India falls to the communists will be the day you all will wake up.
                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  Do you have any recent, as in a decade, proof, that India assists terrorists based in Burma to stage attacks inside China? Take 2 decades. I can give you sources from the last 7 decades, in which China, leaving terroristan aside for a while here, aided/armed North-East Indian terrorist groups. Paresh Barua is in Yunnan province.
                  Take a look at that pic of the contraband. That tells you all you need to know. Thery're armed smugglers who ain't above shooting their way into India. To equate that with any political goal is distracting to say the least and 100% completely dishonest. Again, this is Myanmar. If there is one place more fucked up than Pakistan, this is it. It's part of the Golden Triangle and everyone, most especially the government got their bloody hands in that drug trade. There might not have been any attacks but most certainly, Indian aide has been used, most certainly without Dehli's approval to smuggle drugs into China.

                  And from the look of that pic, the smuggling into India ain't stopping anytime soon and more than likely with armed support.

                  Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  You did not get my point. The PLA is here to stay. Not their land, but they have made those camps, and are here to stay (same as those islands in SCS). This is salami slicing. China is what it is today because of your Governments, and some of you. You do not give China the attention that it deserves, you joke away about China's military strength (yeah I joke too, but I share the threats). I understand that China's military strength is nothing infront of your combined firepower, but China is getting powerful everyday, bit by bit. China might not be a threat to your way of life, but it is a threat to us. We share a border, while your country lays isolated in snow and peace. Soviet Russia dismantled, and all slept in peace since then. Still sleeping.

                  The day a democratic India falls to the communists will be the day you all will wake up.
                  I should be scared of an army that at best can only go 100 miles beyond their borders while mine has travelled several 1000s miles to fight wars? That they have 200 nukes against our 4000 and that's not including our reserves? That at best, they are a 1990 army while we're a 2020 army?

                  Let's be clear about something. You're not us. You don't want to be us. You don't want to live under the threat of constant immediate war. That when the US went DEFCON 3, we all followed and thinking this is it. You know what scared us? T-72s, MiG-25s, SS20s while our planes, tanks, and missiles were not upgraded since the 1960s. In 1979, when the Soviets marched across Afghanistan - IN WINTER. CINCEUR was asked, can we hold? The answer was we don't know. We DO NOT get ansy just because a new regiment has moved forward. We got ansy because new more accurate nukes got aimed at us.

                  The Chinese today? They could not even match the Cold War Soviets ... and the fact is they don't want to.

                  India and China are students of Sundarji and Nie. Deterence is NOT warfighting. For that to work, you HAVE TO READ THE ENEMY. It is NOT Si vis pacem, para bellum. And this article and you ARE NOT READING THE ENEMY. You see what they want you to see and NOT what the reality is. The freaking reality is that platoon houses, coy CPs, and BN HQs are normal deployments in an AO and even this article has stated that it is in the depth areas. Translation: supply depots supporting entire battalions.

                  It is the same kind of thing for your battalions and regiments and your side makes no noise about provoking the Chinese.
                  Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 09 Dec 20,, 04:34.
                  Chimo

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                  • Colonel, sorry for the tone of my post, was not trying to offend you in any way. Just a phase, where anxiety takes over after seeing developments on our border.

                    You talk about reading the enemy. China is behind a firewall. Their thinking is behind a firewall. How does one read China then? Who is the general, who is the commander of that brigade, this platoon. This leads nowhere. The decision will come from the top. So how does one read the right Chinese minds?

                    Oh, and btw, PLA is in our land. Now since they have built houses to station their troops, this part of land is also gone. China is stealing land without even firing a single shot.
                    Last edited by Oracle; 09 Dec 20,, 10:07.
                    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                    • China gives 'five differing explanations' for deploying large forces at LAC: Jaishankar

                      But doesn't mention the 5 explanations. DE, you digged up anything?
                      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                      • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                        You talk about reading the enemy. China is behind a firewall. Their thinking is behind a firewall. How does one read China then? Who is the general, who is the commander of that brigade, this platoon. This leads nowhere. The decision will come from the top. So how does one read the right Chinese minds?
                        If you expect the Chinese to tell you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, I've got a rainbow bridge over the Yangtze I can sell you. In the age of the internet, it's not hard to find the bios of various officers but that is not necessary. Read the ground. Read the enemy and that means observe his FOPs, his patrol schedules, his patrolling procedures (Are they staggered? Aggressive? Confrontational or submissive? Both are equally dangerous. Submissive means that he's got a trap waiting for you. There's a lot of things you can learn just by observing ... and react accordingly.

                        Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                        Oh, and btw, PLA is in our land. Now since they have built houses to station their troops, this part of land is also gone. China is stealing land without even firing a single shot.
                        So steal it back or steal theirs. Look India may very well turn communist but it ain't because a Chinese army would be marching down Dehli. It will be by ballot, not bullet.

                        Chimo

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                        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          Deterrence requires work. In fact, more work and thinking than warfighting. Warfighting needs one thing above all else - money. If nothing else, you can buy off the enemy (best way to take a castle is a donkey loaded with gold). Deterrence requires you to constantly read the enemy, the ground ... and yourself. Things change. Missile defence rendered the Chinese nuclear arsenal near useless and thus required an expansion to maintain a semblance of deterrence. Just because things work today does not mean things will work tomorrow.
                          Very good. On the conventional side for sure. But what more is there to do on the nuclear side. China has not changed their doctrine.

                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          However, like all things, we're human and we do read things wrong. Chinese man-made islands whose goal was to deter American interference in what they perceived as Chinese waters. The question is can we correct things when we do read things wrong. Chinese islands may not stop Western naval powers but the locals ain't doing FNOPS.
                          This is the picture in the East China Sea

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                          Replace border with EEZ, overlapping claim lines. Picture looks familiar to the Indian border. Except its at sea.

                          A standoff here requires boats, lots of them.

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                          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            Very good. On the conventional side for sure. But what more is there to do on the nuclear side. China has not changed their doctrine.
                            No but the dterrence became in doubt when missile defence could render China's small arsenal useless. 2Arty, therefore, had to expand the number of nukes and rockets that could at least overwhelm the limited number of American missile intercepters that at least a few could get through to maintain some sort of deterence.
                            Chimo

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                            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              No but the dterrence became in doubt when missile defence could render China's small arsenal useless. 2Arty, therefore, had to expand the number of nukes and rockets that could at least overwhelm the limited number of American missile intercepters that at least a few could get through to maintain some sort of deterence.
                              Expand to how much. You've said they have no more than a few hundred or less than five hundred. They might have fissile material to make more like others but they aren't doing that.

                              Have things changed since ?

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                              • Interesting discussion with Professor Kerry Gershaneck, from National Chengchi University in Taipei.

                                Originally posted by Kerry Gershaneck
                                We're incapable of by virtue of our upbringing and religious values and other things that mould us.
                                We're incapable of comprehending the war china is waging against us and against democracies globally.
                                We're unable to discern the dishonesty
                                We're unable to see through the deception
                                We're unable to fathom the venality of this regime
                                We don't understand the existenstial threat that it poses to us

                                Most people don't realise there's a country as powerful as the PRC that's at war with us and is bent on destroying us, displacing the US and then
                                displacing democracy, human rights, rule of law, magna carta etc.

                                The net result is there will be no more citizens, just subjects
                                What caught my attention was what he said about Thailand. That the CCP has penetrated Thailand to the extent of Australia. Govt & culture. Possibly more.

                                Now the Aussies have fought back, if history is any guide so will the Thais. Thailand was never colonised. They successfully played off the euros against each other.

                                This is what a Thai general had to tell Amitabh when they visited a couple of years back to learn more about the Kra canal. Other two segments from that trip are here and here.

                                in some ways Thailand & Bhutan are comparable. Does not matter which govt comes to office, the final say on anything major always rests with the monarchy.

                                Oracle, you're going to have to change the way you think about cold war warriors. They knew how to conduct political warfare.

                                The present generation of US policy makers, bureaucrats & military does not. They came of age at a time when the US had no adversaries and all they know is Afghanistan and sand traps in the middle east. They know only counter terrorism not conventional warfare.

                                The US information agency was shut down after the cold war as it lost its sense of purpose. But that organ was essential to teaching USG about political warfare. They will have to resurrect an equivalent at some point.

                                US military institutions became pro CCP which was a significant coup for the liasion dept of the PLA. United front win by co-opting US Naval & Army academy into an accomodation-ist view. CCP members got invites to address the cadets.

                                eg. Jack Ma & Kevin Rudd invited to influence senior officers ? ok. Mike Plsbury ? No.

                                No academic interest in it in college because you won't get a visa to visit the PRC so why bother teaching it.

                                Co-opt, Coerce, Bribe, Indoctrinate & Intimidate. Psychologically manipulate leaders & those that assist them in policy making.

                                US has 5 treaty allies in the region. Japan, Australia, Thailand, South Korea & Phillippines.

                                Professor is quite blunt on the state of US alliances here.

                                He says there are only 2.5 left (!)

                                That would be Australia, Japan and whatever is left of Thailand.

                                Who was the pioneer of accomodationist view ? Kissinger.

                                Would have given south block convulsions in the 70s and we're paying the price ever since.
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Dec 20,, 19:13.

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