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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • Why on earth would we go into Tibet, seems like a hell of a place to fight a war.
    let them come into Laddakh, Uttarakhand and Arunachal and fight us where we know the terrain and are prepared.
    As long as India is prepared for a defensive war, there seems to be no point for PRC to carry out an offensive war.
    These are tough terrains across the mountains and not easy to attack.
    Unless we do something stupid like early this year or 62and leave to the safety of the border to good intentions and mountain gods, even then it's not feasible for them to occupy lands beyond a certain time.

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    • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
      ^ Logistics again. Hmmmm!

      China is a resourceful country. Even if the IAF destroys (hypothetically) Chinese CP/HQ, they would be up in no time. On top of that air-defence. Unless we have men on the ground that can stop the PLA in resuming their supply chains, this won't achieve any objective.
      I'm army. Air support is that - support. No airplane has ever took or held ground. But you're ignoring the point. Destroyiung the CP/HQ ain't the objective (though it helps immeasurably), killing the reserves is the objective.

      The terrain only allows coy and bn level fights. You put one more coy into this kind of fight and it's overcrowding to the point of a turkey shoot..

      Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      What the Colonel says works only if we develop an offensive mindset.
      ...
      Time to move to Offensive Defense from Defensive Offense
      Did I ever say that? Were the Chinese ready to march to Moscow? What I am saying is don't fight and die for the rocks. Prepare to use the rocks to kill them.

      Since Firestorm brought up Kargil, I am certain of one thing. None of what I wrote is unthought of. I'm damned sure the Indian Army has no intention to die for these rocks. They are fully prepared to use these rocks. However, using the Kargil example again, Dehli may have other ideas and overrule sound military thinking.
      Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 03 Nov 20,, 20:04.
      Chimo

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      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
        And 100 miles of Chinese border territory vis-a-vi the Sino-Soviet/Russian border are absolutely inconsequential. Again, no one is talking appeasement nor allowing the Chinese to do as they please but to pick your battles. As of right now, India is reacting to Chinese moves rather than initiating action.

        Again, using the Sino-Soviet border example, the Chinese did not give Moscow 100 miles of territory. That 100 miles was vital to hopefully stretch the Soviet Army LOCs to the breaking point.
        Sir, I don't think we can make the comparison to the Chinese example without looking carefully at the geography of the region. The Chinese gave up 100 miles of uninhabited land which none of their citizens would even know (at the time) that it was given up. Giving up that land also did not cut off any of their other deployed troops. The IA does not have that luxury in Ladakh. Like I pointed out above, giving up land in one area threatens troops deployed in other areas. So you have to first withdraw them. That has a cascading effect in other places including populated regions. Pretty soon you would have to abandon the whole of eastern Ladakh to the Chinese. There are people living there whom we have a duty to protect. The Chinese did not have this problem in the areas they gave up. Having said that there are some areas which we already have given up to an extent, like the fingers 4-8 area north of Pangong Tso. The Chinese presence there has been built up over years and gives them no real access route to sensitive areas. So as you can see we aren't fighting them for it beyond occupying the heights around their positions in some cases. But that is not an option in most of the other locations where the two sides are now in an eyeball to eyeball confrontation. The IA could not afford to let them take the Galwan river bend where the June skirmish happened for instance. That would have been a tactically unsound move.


        I remind you that was precisely what the Indian Army wanted done. Cross into Pakistani territory, cut their LOCs and starve them out or more presiley, dehydrate them out.

        The primary axiom of maneuver warfare is force on weak, not force on strong. The PRIMARY aim of Deep Battle is to destroy the reserves, NOT the main force. By that regard, I could not be bothered about what front line Chinese troops are doing. I'd be thinking where is their CP/HQ (and hence where their reserves are) and how do I get to it.

        Pick your battles. A brawl ain't it.
        Crossing into pakistani territory to cut LOC's is not doing nothing. And does not compare to the Chinese giving up 100 miles of land either. And the IA remembers very well that the government did not allow them to do that anyway even against Pakistan. The chances of the government letting them do it against China are slim, unless the Chinese start shooting first. Besides, the PLA is a much stronger foe than the PA and such a tactic may or may not produce results and might result in more casualties than you would have fighting over the rocks as you say. What the IA is trying to do is not get into a Kargil like situation in the first place. If they had any inkling of what Pak was planning prior to Kargil, they would have taken the same approach back then too. An eminently reasonable course of action IMO.

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        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
          Did I ever say that? Were the Chinese ready to march to Moscow? What I am saying is don't fight and die for the rocks. Prepare to use the rocks to kill them.
          You didn't but i'm thinking of ways to deter a repeat of their behaviour.

          I don't know how the present standoff concludes. But assuming it draws down without event like previous ones.

          Then having an offensive force means they think twice before massing again ?

          Nobody fights and dies for rocks this way. They remain deterred.

          We do not deter them from starting these faceoffs in our present configuration.

          But they deterred us with a quarter of the personnel we used. I'm not sure whether that formula works any more.

          So they've likely lost their power to deter us as well. Our infrastructure buildup continues and is no longer a bargaining chip.

          Hard to say where this all goes. Looks like extended deployment at the border.

          Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
          Since Firestorm brought up Kargil, I am certain of one thing. None of what I wrote is unthought of. I'm damned sure the Indian Army has no intention to die for these rocks. They are fully prepared to use these rocks. However, using the Kargil example again, Dehli may have other ideas and overrule sound military thinking.
          These political considerations over rule everything and queer the pitch.

          Often wonder whether the military is just a bunch of props in a political struggle.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 04 Nov 20,, 12:01.

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          • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
            ^ Many in Labour Party are China stooges.
            Here's one, former ambassador to China, Geoff Raby

            Australia will never be able to diversify away from China so better make good.

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            • Finally Nitin's videos came out





              Only military in the world to to use Il-76 & C17's

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              • Very nice videos.
                People often do not realise the huge cost of war.
                The endless lines of trucks and planes is what it takes to supply the Indian military in Ladakh sector.

                It does raise the question that how on Earth did we miss PLAs build-up though, it couldn't have been overnight, they also need all of this to function.
                i mean it's almost impossible to miss out on Indian military build-up all across the India Tibet border.....
                Seems like we are in dire need of USA providing us with intelligence.
                and also of increasing our space intelligence.

                ​​
                Last edited by kuku; 06 Nov 20,, 07:10.

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                • The chief of defence staff seems to be quite grim about the situation.
                  Doesn't seem to reflect the opinion that the winter will cool both sides down.
                  Attached Files

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                  • Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by kuku View Post
                      It does raise the question that how on Earth did we miss PLAs build-up though, it couldn't have been overnight, they also need all of this to function.
                      i mean it's almost impossible to miss out on Indian military build-up all across the India Tibet border.....
                      I do not think it was "missed" in the same manner as we missed the PA build up prior to Kargil. If that had happened we would not have been able to match their buildup man for man so quickly considering that the terrain and roads are both better on their side.

                      The huge amount of supplies you now see being driven or flown in are to stock up for the winter when the supply routes might get blocked by snow. The preparations seem to be adequate from what we can see.

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                      • Originally posted by kuku View Post
                        It does raise the question that how on Earth did we miss PLAs build-up though, it couldn't have been overnight, they also need all of this to function.
                        i mean it's almost impossible to miss out on Indian military build-up all across the India Tibet border.....
                        Posted about this already. Russians told us it was a routine exercise and then we found out it was anything but. So they've got egg on their face after this episode.

                        There are agreements in place with China where they inform us of exercises and are not supposed to come closer than 200 km to the border. They broke this agreement.

                        So this is not a slip up on our part but a clear breach of trust on theirs. We'll make them pay for it.

                        Originally posted by kuku View Post
                        Seems like we are in dire need of USA providing us with intelligence.
                        and also of increasing our space intelligence.
                        Would not surprise if the Americans also said otherwise at the time. This episode would have made clear the need for additional sources and provided the incentive to get BECA done.

                        The pandemic meant we did not have people at the forward posts and this was the opening they used. The message they want to send us they could move this many in without us knowing. Well, that was a one time point long expired. Pathetic. Nobody is going to be impressed with such a stunt.

                        It's quite clear CCP are not interested in a stable & prosperous relationship with us but prefer an unbalanced and deteriorating one.

                        We will give them just that
                        Last edited by Double Edge; 07 Nov 20,, 09:06.

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                        • Seems like we are trying are doing something about it.

                          We really need to track all opposing forces elements deployed against us. This is basic investment we need to put in.

                          we need to do a lot considering Russia even with so many space assets employes phone and cyber tracking to keep a lookout on enemy force deployments and concentrations.

                          If we depended on Russia to tell us what the Chinese were upto and we're stupid enough to believe them, that presents a sad state of affairs indeed.

                          ​​​​​​We could at very least employ Tibetan nomads and villagers. The last I knew anything about, IB used to interact with nomads, and people who travel to and fro between India - Nepal - Tibet area

                          I mean 30,000 regular military personnel with mechanised armour artillery helicopters yada yada getting deployed to 15-18 thousand feet in really remote area, we must have been completely blind to have missed it.

                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by kuku; 07 Nov 20,, 15:08.

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                          • Since, so much is being said about Indian intelligence, my 2 cents.

                            Indian intelligence knew about PLA troops movement during Feb-Mar. India knew about it as it possesses high quality imagery & signals intelligence capability, and the Chinese did not even attempt to conceal their movements. Problem, has always been weakness in interpretation and analysis of available intelligence, and inability to provide accurate assessment of China's intentions. So India tried to reason Chinese military movements & intentions with Russia, which stated that the PLA was in the midst of a routine military exercise and that there was nothing much to read from it. India started moving troops and weapons, only when the USA started giving us highly classified satellite images, and which is why we signed BECA thereafter.

                            Some questions: (The Colonel is right that India doesn't possess the required minds who can assess Chinese intentions)

                            Q1. Who let the capability of Indian intelligence and analysis deteriorate to such an extent, that we have to depend on Russia to understand China's intentions or to US for pin-pointing exact locations of the adversary?
                            A1. 70 years of Congress rule, also known as Scamgress.

                            Q2. What is India doing to fill critical gaps in human resources available for interpretation and analysis, and the newest technological capabilities related to it?
                            A2. This the BJP should answer. They've been in power for 6 years. No reason for excuses in matters of Nat'Sov.
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                            Comment


                            • PA deployment in Kargil was in another age, and a very well coordinated action, typical of PA excellence in such operations.

                              This in todays day and age with the capabilities available seems like a massive failure from our end.

                              The chain of news reporting suggests we responded once PLA had the advantage, which we then managed to counter in an excellent time.

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                              • Originally posted by kuku View Post
                                we need to do a lot considering Russia even with so many space assets employes phone and cyber tracking to keep a lookout on enemy force deployments and concentrations.

                                If we depended on Russia to tell us what the Chinese were upto and we're stupid enough to believe them, that presents a sad state of affairs indeed.

                                We could at very least employ Tibetan nomads and villagers. The last I knew anything about, IB used to interact with nomads, and people who travel to and fro between India - Nepal - Tibet area

                                I mean 30,000 regular military personnel with mechanised armour artillery helicopters yada yada getting deployed to 15-18 thousand feet in really remote area, we must have been completely blind to have missed it.
                                Let me put it another way.

                                How long would it take a division to drive 200 km south when they have roads reaching up to the border when they preplanned it ? few days.

                                You can have all the satellites and nomads you want.

                                That is your lead time to scramble troops to the border. To do that in the middle of a lockdown on a top priority basis.

                                They can keep adding as they please.

                                From what i can tell it took us the whole of May to get up and going and by June we matched them.

                                So what do we do every time they have an exercise in Tibet ?

                                We need to keep troops there as we don't trust them any longer.

                                Or we can improve infrastructure so it takes as long as it does them to mass numbers there. This we are doing.
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 07 Nov 20,, 17:01.

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