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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • And here is Yusuf



    He went quiet over here once he got DFI going.

    Was browsing some time ago and saw Tronic mention DFI was not as 'intellectual" as WAB

    Word Tronic wants to use is scholarly.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Oct 20,, 19:27.

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    • China has ramped up military presence across LAC. Ladakh isn’t only target
      Gen Rawat asks tri-services to curb peace-time activities in deference to deployed troops in Ladakh


      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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      • Army retaliates at Pangong TSO near LAC, Chinese PLA suffers heavy casualties

        Misleading, clickbait title. It's due to extreme weather.
        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

        Comment


        • So what do they have


          “We would ordinarily have expected the mobilisation and the focus of the infra upgrade to be limited to the stand-off points, mostly aimed at warding off any armed threat from India to occupied Aksai Chin. But this is not the case,” a top national security planner said. “There has been a clear effort to militarise the autonomous region through infrastructure upgrade”.

          The official cited recent satellite imagery of the Tibet region that shows

          - shelters to house fighter jets in an excavated hill at Gonggar airbase in Lhasa,
          - massive storage facility at Golmud in Qinghai province,
          - a new road between Xinjiang region’s Kanxiwar, used as forward deployment base during 1962 war, to the Hotan airbase and
          - border upgrade at Nyangulu and Nyingchi across Arunachal Pradesh. Nyangulu, 60 kilometres from the Arunachal border, was again used as a forward PLA camp in the 1962 war.
          - the development of Shiquanhe a mere 82 kilometres from the Demchok Line of Actual Control and
          - construction of shelters near Mabdo La camp in occupied Aksai Chin means that while the focus of the global community will be on India-China stand-off, the Chinese communist leadership will continue to put its indelible stamp on Tibet.
          Don't know if this is enough to merit a new video by Shiv.


          The Chinese concern over Tibet has heightened with the US appointing Robert A Destro, Assistant Secretary of State for the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor as the new special coordinator for Tibet issue on October 14 after a hiatus of four years. Tasked with a mandate of promoting dialogue between the People’s Republic of China and the 14th Dalai Lama to protect the unique religious, cultural and linguistic identity of Tibetans, Destro met Lobsang Sangay, head of Tibetan government-in-exile, a day later in Washington. This was the first time that a US State Department official met the leader of the Tibetan government-in-exile in six decades.

          While China has fiercely opposed the appointment of a US coordinator on Tibetan affairs, intelligence reports confirm that for Tibetan Buddhist the 14th Dalai Lama is still considered a living god with his pictures being displayed prominently in houses in the outskirts of Lhasa. Beijing calls the Dalai Lama, who is treated by India as an “honoured guest” and a spiritual leader, a splittist and a terrorist.
          The only first is the meeting with Lobsang Sangay.

          The position of US Tibetan coordinator started in 1997 under Madeline Albright. This point does not get mentioned in the Indian media.

          The position remained unfilled during the Trump administration and only got recently filled. Not surprising as many positions remained unfilled during his first year. This one took much longer than usual though.

          Surprised to learn that pictures of the Dalai lama feature prominently in houses in the outskirts of Lhasa. Thought that was a jail time offense as mentioned by visiting journalists to Lhasa.

          As for Sinicisation and Han domination the demographics of Tibet are still 92% Tibetan and 8% Han. Hans can't breath very well there and its doubtful they can move more in any time soon if this remains the balance since 1950. All top jobs in govt, security remain filled by Han though. Salaries are also higher with ads in some shops in Lhasa openly offering higher salaries for Hans.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 26 Oct 20,, 21:49.

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          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            Surprised to learn that pictures of the Dalai lama feature prominently in houses in the outskirts of Lhasa. Thought that was a jail time offense as mentioned by visiting journalists to Lhasa.
            It is but it's a wink-wink-nudge-nudge kind of thing. The police announces they're going to do a sweep (warning). The DL worshippers turn the pictures around or drape something over it. The police comes in and sees nothing (even though they know its there), claims to see nothing and leave. Like everything else, pick your battles. A pic is not worth the paperwork. You riot, however, and they'll come in, find the pic, and nail additional charges onto you.

            Day in, day out, people are out to make a living and try to avoid trouble.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            As for Sinicisation and Han domination the demographics of Tibet are still 92% Tibetan and 8% Han. Hans can't breath very well there and its doubtful they can move more in any time soon if this remains the balance since 1950. All top jobs in govt, security remain filled by Han though. Salaries are also higher with ads in some shops in Lhasa openly offering higher salaries for Hans.
            Actually the jobs are for those who can speak Mandarin. Reason being is that trade with the rest of China is where you're going to make money, either bringing stuff in or shipping stuff out. You can't make orders or sell to those who can't understand Tibetan.
            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 26 Oct 20,, 21:57.
            Chimo

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            • From a month ago



              Surgical strikes have their uses against terrorist camps in PO J&K. I'm not sure what the objective would be against regular forces.

              yes, we have the ablity to do so for what it's worth

              Already carried out on the heights around Spanguur gap.

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              • Have we managed to resume patrolling in Depsang. Some what it would seem


                While the PLA has deployed a brigade strength of mechanized infantry around Tien-Wien Dien across the Daulet Beg Oldi LAC, the Indian Army troops are patrolling the Depsang bulge area within the patrolling limits despite the Chinese efforts to block them. The PLA air activity in this area is more than in the south of the DBO sector due to the close proximity of the Hotan airbase in Tibet.

                Indian Army ready for winter endurance test at 5,800 metres on Finger 4 of Pangong Tso against PLA | HT | Sept 27 2020

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                • If India doesn't have the fortitude to win an arms race with China (far, far, far cheaper than an actual war), this talk of strikes are nothing more than feel good propganda. It certainly is not scaring the Chinese.
                  Chimo

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                  • Do we have to win it or merely match it ?



                    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Oct 20,, 02:32.

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                    • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                      If India doesn't have the fortitude to win an arms race with China (far, far, far cheaper than an actual war), this talk of strikes are nothing more than feel good propganda. It certainly is not scaring the Chinese.
                      For that, a solid economy is required, not a protectionist/semi-closed one. Positions of financial eminence should be filled with experts of the field, not 10+2 pass illiterate people who win MP (member of Parliament) elections in India. A lot of ground work needs to be done. If the Modi led BJP government is in power till 2035, even then issues will remain. Such is the bureaucratic mess we're in for 70+ years. Police reforms, reforms in judiciary, reservations - well Colonel, the issues are endless.
                      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        Do we have to win it or merely match it ?
                        You don't start a war looking for a tie.

                        Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                        Such is the bureaucratic mess we're in for 70+ years. Police reforms, reforms in judiciary, reservations - well Colonel, the issues are endless.
                        1975 China (Mao died. Gang of 4 overthrowned. The disasters of the GLF and the GPCR) was in a far worst position and really hit rock bottom in 1989 (Tienamen Square Protest). China got her nose bloodied in Vietnam and only won in technicality. The USSR did whatever she wanted on the border. The only bright spot was India and that was because Pakistan was doing their dirty work for them.

                        Lesson in this? Look at the long game and don't do anything stupid ... like starting a war looking for a tie.

                        Chimo

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          You don't start a war looking for a tie.

                          1975 China (Mao died. Gang of 4 overthrowned. The disasters of the GLF and the GPCR) was in a far worst position and really hit rock bottom in 1989 (Tienamen Square Protest). China got her nose bloodied in Vietnam and only won in technicality. The USSR did whatever she wanted on the border. The only bright spot was India and that was because Pakistan was doing their dirty work for them.

                          Lesson in this? Look at the long game and don't do anything stupid ... like starting a war looking for a tie.
                          I wasn't talking about war, I was merely responding to your arms race statement. The thing is, for 500 numbers of 3rd gen fighters of PLAAF, we could do with half the numbers of 4.5 gen, with BVR missiles etc. India doesn't have to match numbers with the Chinese (bad business), just enough technological superiority to deter them from any mischief, and if needed win a short skirmish. And all that can be achieved with western doctrine and arms in our arsenal. And since nobody is giving us anything free, we need to work on the economic front. 1/3rd of the population sleeps hungry, maybe that number has increased now due to Covid. Crooks are sitting in every government establishment. The BJP at the top level is clean, but there is no accountability at the grass-root level. Everybody is corrupt.

                          If I think long term, as you meant, I still am not very confident. Maybe by 2040 we'd see positive aspects of development flowing to every nook and corner of the country. BUT, if the Congress or a Congress led coalition comes to power at the centre in 2024, we'd be screwed till the next century. So, every one needs to try to keep the Congress out of power.
                          Last edited by Oracle; 27 Oct 20,, 05:12.
                          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                          Comment


                          • Look at Deng's China. There is absolutely zero question that she would lose and lose big in a fight against the USSR/Russia. Did she start a fight with Moscow? Did she even attempted to militarily challenge Soviet/Russian border claims? Did she answer with firepower against Soviet border violations?

                            Now, did she bow down to Moscow? Where she can fight (Vietnam), she did fight. Where she can challenge (arms supply to Mujahadeen including man portable SAM and RPG), she did challenge.

                            Did Soviet/Russian armies take Lop Nor? While the Chinese would undoubtly lose the fight and lose big, there was also absolutely no doubt that Deng was going to fight and fight hard. Seeing the trouble they had in Afghanistan against an unorganized resistance, very few in Moscow could have stomache the blood needed to win against Deng.

                            So how long ago was Deng's China? And what is the Sino-Russo border today?
                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                              You don't start a war looking for a tie.
                              I was thinking of deterrence only.

                              You could argue it did not deter them to start this standoff. Rather they have been deterring us with a quarter of the troop numbers because they have roads and can rush people in.

                              To which my reply is what are they waiting for ? they had the element of surprise.

                              What has given them pause. Show up in the numbers they have and just sit there for months on end.

                              Nobody can answer this question which means we're staring at them for another five more months.

                              Well, we are learning whether this strategy of theirs works or not. That is keep the numbers on the border like we do or rush them in later.

                              They can't draw down now or be as a disadvantage so we'll keep them pinned there for the winter.

                              As for weapons we can get whatever we want now. But mountains reduce the tech advantage.

                              We can develop a QME over China that has no access this way.

                              The bigger challenge will be structural. Will require a change in thinking and modernisation to go further.

                              Smaller troop numbers and higher investment in the soldier than present as AIM harps on non stop.

                              People argue the money should be spent on the Navy & air force instead. Seas are more important now.

                              How much will China bitch about the 2+2 meeting ?
                              Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Oct 20,, 14:18.

                              Comment


                              • There is also a timing issue with quad which was pointed out by a Cmdr Abhijit Singh recently.

                                It seems India is linking what happens on the border to the maritime domain. A veiled threat is being sent out that we will dominate the Indian Ocean, will interfere with Chinese shipping, naval operations if push comes to shove on the border.

                                Does not make tactical sense when we're trying to negotiate a truce with them on the border.

                                Otherwise great geopolitically and strategically for relations with quad members.

                                China isn't challenging any quad member in the Indian Ocean. Does not mean it cannot happen but is this China's game plan ?

                                It would seem they have two strategies. Dominate their rim seas so they will be more agrressive in the ECS & SCS.

                                But they cannot do that beyond
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Oct 20,, 09:02.

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