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  • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    ASSEMBLY AREA— The area where a command assembles preparatory to making a move

    Question ? there's reports that have a big buildup at certain areas.

    Why is this not an assembly area for you ? or how long does it take for one to develop from that build up.
    At least a 4 to 1 manpower OR firepower advantage.

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    There is a simpler reason of course and that is for domestic consumption.

    Military & govt are doing a bang up job despite the odds.
    As someone with no dog in this fight, I cannot understand the hoopla about reaching this summit or that summit or how a brawl is a great victory. Just because you dominate the heights does not mean others will not try to take. The Kargil War should have demonstrated that.

    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    Sounds a lot like us back in 1962 where the order was not to give them an inch. Meaning you held the damn post regardless.

    Instead of withdrawing and advancing where necessary.

    The funny thing is we're hearing this term 'not an inch' from the Chinese these days.
    Not necessary "not one inch" but rather an insight to Chinese military thinking. The Chinese cannot change their operational execution on the fly. If it's not built into the operational contingencies, then any wrench thrown into their operational plan will continue their march into operational disaster and there's no way for them to stop it.

    But by the same token, if their operational plan is sound, you can't stop them just because you killed a lot of them.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post

      ok, so how does he think we should respond in the current situation ?
      He has not spoken yet. One thing I noticed of the Colonel is that he thinks if missiles are not flying, everything is s joke. He has served in NATO, seen wars, and a professional of the Cold War era, so his battle-thinking is deeply cold war'ish. He thinks nukes are a deterrent, well, the days of long stretched wars and using nukes are gone. So is dog-fighting with jets. I don't know much, but the Colonel doesn't help either with his statements, which is to say if one starts prodding him again and again, reply may come a year later or never. His mental exercises sometime tire me out. I agree in geo-politics it's always give and take, and successive GoI have not been maintaining adequate firepower for the forces or even manpower per se (our fault), heck not even a less shameful % of the GDP for the forces for defence modernisation, but it can't be business as usual as was during the Cold War. The way I see it, and I've not seen much is a coming together of countries with some shared values and principals, areas where we compete with each other, areas where we co-operate.

      P.S.: Since we control the heights, we should put up an AD screen (to save artillery positions from air-raid/missile strikes), and artillery at depth areas to stop PLA's march if it comes to that, as also man those heights with machine-guns and anti-tank missiles (which we're doing). The idea is to first stop the march of the PLA, then think of destroying their logistics bases, supply lines, air-strips, communication centres and all. Infantry holds the ground, so we should first stop the PLA infantry's march.
      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
        At least a 4 to 1 manpower OR firepower advantage.
        This would be true at the beginning of May where they had the element of surprise. Since then we've been told we match them on both those parameters. Logistic support is decent as well. On one of the channels yesterday i was told they have enough to last a year up there.

        Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
        As someone with no dog in this fight, I cannot understand the hoopla about reaching this summit or that summit or how a brawl is a great victory. Just because you dominate the heights does not mean others will not try to take. The Kargil War should have demonstrated that.
        It's like a game of American football. Win 10 yards and the home crowd erupts like a goal was scored

        HUH!!

        I find many Indian officers saying they are difficult to take. Better to leave as is and move on. And the army only got a quarter of the posts after severe losses.

        So you will say blockade. How many men for the job. They are at lower heights and can be taken out.

        PGM's is another i heard. Expensive ?

        The numbers to take i understood to be 7:1 but of late i hear people saying 10:1

        To take out 1,000 men on the heights requires 10,000 with 15-20% attrition or lose twice as many. This is where 'Iron discipline' comes in.

        There will be many heights to take. The Paks occupied over 160 posts. We managed to dislodge 45 posts at the cost of 500 men.

        How many casualties are worth it ? Take the battle of Rezang La. How many Rezang La's can they withstand.

        If there is no war. Then it means the area they grabbed earlier is within our line of fire now. We've outmanuvered them in this particular area.

        They refused to pull back so we're sticking to the heights. If their MOD spokesman is anything to go with then they are not happy with this development.

        They tried to challenge a couple of posts we held a week ago, they fired some shots, we fired some in air and then they went back.

        If they push it we fire for effect.

        Anything can happen when you have two pissed off groups in close proximity.


        Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
        Not necessary "not one inch" but rather an insight to Chinese military thinking. The Chinese cannot change their operational execution on the fly. If it's not built into the operational contingencies, then any wrench thrown into their operational plan will continue their march into operational disaster and there's no way for them to stop it.

        But by the same token, if their operational plan is sound, you can't stop them just because you killed a lot of them.
        If they want to throw 10 to 1 at us then godspeed.

        I think its fair to say we'd push all the way to the IB and defend from there

        Status quo 1947

        Forget 1962, forget 1985. We've fought insurgents in that area going on thirty years now. We've manned those heights for just as long.

        We know all to well how hard it is to move there. How many men you risk to take one out. I posted some stats in the other thread. Way higher than infantry odds.

        My guys patrol on foot. The PLA patrols in jeeps. How safe will they be on the roads against guys on foot.

        To top this they have piped oxygen in their quarters. How do they acclimate in that case.

        I don't care what whizbang philosophy they have, initial impressions aren't very good.

        The Paks were harder than these guys.
        Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Sep 20,, 02:45.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Oracle View Post

          He has not spoken yet. One thing I noticed of the Colonel is that he thinks if missiles are not flying, everything is s joke. He has served in NATO, seen wars, and a professional of the Cold War era, so his battle-thinking is deeply cold war'ish. He thinks nukes are a deterrent, well, the days of long stretched wars and using nukes are gone. So is dog-fighting with jets. I don't know much, but the Colonel doesn't help either with his statements, which is to say if one starts prodding him again and again, reply may come a year later or never. His mental exercises sometime tire me out. I agree in geo-politics it's always give and take, and successive GoI have not been maintaining adequate firepower for the forces or even manpower per se (our fault), heck not even a less shameful % of the GDP for the forces for defence modernisation, but it can't be business as usual as was during the Cold War. The way I see it, and I've not seen much is a coming together of countries with some shared values and principals, areas where we compete with each other, areas where we co-operate.
          I think we need to stop inviting Generals to these news shows and start inviting Brigadiers, Colonels & Majors.

          Because those guys know operations like the back of their hand. You learn far more with these guys as to the business at hand.

          The general is fine for the big picture overview then let the guys who get their hands dirty take it away.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Sep 20,, 02:08.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
            If you keep trying to fight the last war, you will lose and lose big. The Indian side is so ignorant of Chinese military adventures that it it's not funny. They keep saying that China didn't fight a war since 1979. Wrong. Their last war was in 1985. If you want to measure Chinese military experience, everyone in Dehli should stop with 1962 and at least use 1985 and I would not even look at that but towards the recent Russo-Sino military exercises. The Russians coined the phrase "Iron Discipline" meaning the Chinese will not be disswayed from their OPOBJs just because of their casualties.

            In short, the Chinese have became WWII Soviet Red Army ... and all that it means including C4ISR.
            The PLA officers think India is a push over and in border meets they keep reminding us of 1962 and that this time it will be even worse. That is the script they've been given.

            They're the ones who think its 1962 ?

            I think they've learned a thing or two over the past few weeks.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
              If you want to see military adventures, look to your other border. This one is nothing more than chest puffing, not even chest thumping.
              It's possible the Paks would be called in to cause a diversion at the right time. We're watching that border as well.

              The only question to ask is what's in it for them

              They're broke and will be spent in ten days.

              The plan was sugar daddy would look after J&K for them.

              Diplomatically that went no where. So they tried with their PLA

              Now the PLA is in a fix and have to innovate their way out of it..

              The ball is in their court.
              Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Sep 20,, 03:01.

              Comment


              • ^ If Paks try to do anything, LoC will change again for the 1001th time. And, I'm sure there are plans to take over Pak posts, and move the LoC outwards, to stop infiltration of Pakistani jihadis.
                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                Comment


                • As expected

                  Chinese army build up seen opposite Arunachal border, Indian troops on high alert | IT | Sept 15 2020


                  Troops build-up has been noticed in the Chinese territory opposite Arunachal Pradesh's Asaphila, Tuting axis, Chang Tze and Fishtail-2 sectors, nearly 20 km from the Indian territory, top government sources told India Today TV.

                  Comment


                  • Border Roads Organisation constructs strategic bridge in Arunachal Pradesh | ET | Apr 20 2020

                    The Border Roads Organisation (BRO) constructed a 430 feet long bailey bridge at Daporijo over the Subansiri river in Arunachal Pradesh’s Upper Subansiri district. The BRO has upgraded the bridge, whose construction began last month, to class 40 tons, which means that it can bear the weight of heaviest loads such as artillery guns that can then be taken to forward areas along the LAC. The upgrade will also cater for the future infrastructure development of Upper Subansiri.

                    “The new bridge will provide adequate movement of supplies for 451 villages and approximately 3,000 security force personnel deployed along the India-China border,” a senior official said on the condition of anonymity.

                    The bridge is crucial due to Daporijo being the disputed areas of Asaphila and Maza along the LAC.

                    “It has also been successfully upgraded from class 24 tons to class 40 tons thereby allowing the movement of heavier vehicles. This caters to not only the army’s requirements, but the future infrastructure development needs of the Upper Subansiri district as well,” the BRO said.

                    The bridge replaced an older bridge in Daporijo, which was constructed in 1992 and had severely deteriorated.

                    Daporijo is connected to the rest of Arunachal Pradesh through two main roads- Likabali-Basar-Bame-Daporijo axis and the Itanagar-Ziro-Raga-Daporijo axis.

                    There were two important bridges-- one at Tamin (400 feet bailey suspension bridge) and at Daporijo (430 feet multi span bailey bridge)-- over the Subansiri in these two lines of communication. The bridges facilitated the supply of food and ammunition to 3,000 soldiers deployed along the LAC and more than 600 villages.
                    We're prepared in Asaphila

                    What about the Fishtail sectors ?

                    Click image for larger version  Name:	fishtails arunachal.jpg Views:	0 Size:	22.2 KB ID:	1565921
                    Prime Minister Manmohan Singh rejected an August 2013 request by senior officials in his government to correct a serious error, dating back over 50 years, in India's official maps. In effect, this oversight in official maps mistakenly gave China control of two Arunachal Pradesh "fishtails" (see map), a territory as large as Sikkim or Goa, and continuously inhabited by Indian citizens. Key officials advising Manmohan Singh confirmed the incident.

                    Although this assertion could not be independently verified, a former official claimed that "the problem with Manmohan Singh was his inability to say no to 10 Janpath". According to him, "Sonia Gandhi took the line that in the interests of good relations with China and Pakistan, we should keep turning the other cheek", and that in the matter of the Arunachal Pradesh map, rectification of Nehru-era maps, which incorrectly omitted both Fishtail 1 and Fishtail 2 from Indian territory, would draw attention to an error committed during the period in office of Jawaharlal Nehru.

                    Another article from the Telegrap shows the fishtail a bit lower at the Trijunction of indo china Burma border. I think Nalapat's version is correct.


                    Click image for larger version  Name:	fishtail arunachal.jpg Views:	0 Size:	23.3 KB ID:	1565919

                    Near Walong is where they made their break through in 1962. Sure they will be reminding us about that as well...

                    Delhi plays down China incursion | Daily Telegraph | Aug 22 2013

                    The site is referred to in the military as the “Fishtail” area, which has a history of transgressions by border patrols, one as recently as February this year, because the boundary is not defined. Both armies patrol up to their “lines of perception” but the overlap could be as wide as 20km.

                    The sources said soldiers on long-range patrols might carry tents and equipment to shelter themselves from the weather in the heights. In the Fishtail area, at heights above 11,000ft, the patrols can last up to 12 days.
                    We agreed to coordinated patrolling a year ago in the fishtail sector. That seems to have broken down now.


                    India, China coordinate patrolling of disputed area | HT | Oct 26 2019

                    India and China are for the first time patrolling Fish-Tail II, one of the 13 disputed areas along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in south-east Arunachal Pradesh, in coordination with each other in an attempt to build mutual confidence and maintain peace along the border, a senior official in the security establishment said on condition of anonymity.

                    Fish Tail-I and II are in the easternmost corner of Arunachal Pradesh. Fish Tail -I is largely glaciated terrain, and patrols from either side are few and far between.

                    China agreed to the Indian proposal, leading to structured “coordinated patrolling” along Fish-Tail II, the first time that such an exercise has been undertaken by the two countries, the official said.

                    “One of the key takeaways of the 2018 Wuhan summit, which followed the 73-day-long standoff between the Chinese People’s Army and the Indian army at Doklam, was to give strategic guidance to both armies to reduce border tensions. The coordinated patrolling is a step in that direction,” a senior ministry of defence official said.

                    “Coordinated patrolling would mean both sides would inform the other about their outgoing foot patrols, and the areas that the patrol is likely to go and the duration of the patrol,”

                    Patrols from either side go up the designated “claim-line” and mark their presence before returning. “When patrols come face to face, each have to challenge the other,” the third official said.

                    Fish-Tail -I &II are among the most remote areas along the LAC and India’s road infrastructure is extremely poor in this area. India, however, regularly sends patrols, some of which take up to a month to reach their destination. The PLA undertakes sporadic patrols in the region.

                    Finally, Chang Tze. There is no Chang Tze.

                    It's Yangtze in the Mago sector of East Tawang. They've intruded in that area in 2016

                    Situated at a height of 14,000 feet, Yangtze ranges are dominated by the Indian soldiers deployed there.

                    When the Chinese soldiers start their four-hour long climb up the mountains, the Indian Army soldiers can observe them immediately.

                    The standard drill is for two companies of Indian soldiers to move forward and deploy themselves, in what becomes an eyeball-to-eyeball situation.

                    The Chinese stay there for a few hours, and then go back as they have to trek down the mountains before sunset. Things go back to status quo.

                    As per defence sources, this usually happens twice a year.

                    We started building roads here back in 2014


                    Despite Chinese concern, India to go ahead with its plan of construction of frontier highway in Arunachal Pradesh | ET | Oct 18 2014

                    India plans to construct roads linking Mago-Thingbu in Tawang to Vijaynagar in Changlang district of Arunachal Pradesh. The 2,000-km long road is expected t cost Rs 40,000 crore. India plans frontier highway in its border. Northeast India shares border with China, Bangladesh, Bhutan and Myanmar.

                    The minister said, “We are not venturing into others territory. Its is our domain. Other countries should not have any objection when we are not doing anything harmful to them," Rijiju said.

                    He continued, "We are not doing anything which is adverse to the interest of our neighbours. Whatever is being done, it is for our own people and for the connectivity of our own people living in border areas."

                    China sharply reacted to India's plans to construct a road network along the McMohan line inArunachal Pradesh and expressed hope that India will not take any action which may complicate the situation before a final settlement is reached to end the boundary dispute.
                    When the hell are we going to stop calling it McMohan and start calling it McMAHON !!


                    Click image for larger version  Name:	tawang vijaynagar road.jpg Views:	0 Size:	37.5 KB ID:	1565918


                    Arunachal Frontier Highway

                    What is the status of this 2,000 km highway


                    Survey for 2000-km long frontier highway complete | Arunachal Times | Jan 05 2020

                    Survey over at the beginning of the year, its going to be built soon. No mention of expected completion date.
                    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Sep 20,, 14:54.

                    Comment


                    • So Tawang all the way to fishtail

                      Comment


                      • So many incidents of treason of the Gandhi dynasty and its bootlickers is coming to knowledge now. And Prince Gandhi has the audacity to troll the government of the day stating that the PM has sold India to China. What an incompetent assclown Rahul Gandhi is, by-product of ***** waste of the Colonialists. Gandhis, and in short Gandhi bootlickers deserve no respect. Their entire clan should be thrown in jail or shot, whichever can be done earlier.
                        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          So Tawang all the way to fishtail
                          No need to be so happily surprised.

                          Modi tried to romance Nawaz and got screwed. Modi was romancing Xi for 6 years, what happened? He bent over, and got screwed. These people have no vision. Cannot grasp intentions, nor do they have the foresight to see military capabilities of the enemy. An enemy is an enemy, you prepare for war in peacetime. These fcuks just need votes, so they just talk, talk and talk more. What happened to 'Make in India'? Atmanirbhar Bharat, stupid slogans of the Modi government is not moving any supply chains to India. Because of Covid-19, and diversification of international supply chains, some will come to India, but what is the Modi government's role in this? Nothing, a big 0.

                          Every year this time, late monsoon destroys tomato and onions crops in India. Result, prices skyrocket. Every damn year. How many years does it take to build cold storages in every state, every district? How about electricity, 24 hours, all through the year. Am I asking too much? If BJP cannot run the F country, they should quit. We are made to look like a nation of lambs doing meeehhh meeeehhhh by these blood sucking parasitic politicians. We don't need democracy, it's cancer for 3rd world countries such as ours. We need Army rule for a period of 20 years. Purge should start right from the top, and flow to the bottom. Cleanse the system wholly with acid.
                          Last edited by Oracle; 16 Sep 20,, 15:52.
                          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Oracle View Post

                            No need to be so happily surprised.
                            Not surprised, they had no moves left in Ladakh so expecting they had to try make openings elsewhere.

                            I think we can handle them in Yangtze & Asaphila - Tooting axis

                            It's the fishtails where we can be pressed. They're quite remote.

                            Western theatre command is based in Chengdu so its closer for them to mass around Arunachal than make the 2,500 km trip to Ladakh.

                            Time for the Indian army to be all it can be.

                            Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                            Modi tried to romance Nawaz and got screwed. Modi was romancing Xi for 6 years, what happened? He bent over, and got screwed. These people have no vision. Cannot grasp intentions, nor do they have the foresight to see military capabilities of the enemy. An enemy is an enemy, you prepare for war in peacetime.
                            Without any opposition he can now show his other side

                            Talks and terror don't go together

                            Neither does business and death.

                            Free hand to the forces.
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Sep 20,, 15:43.

                            Comment


                            • ^ We command vantage points in Arunachal, and by now, whatever we didn't command, has been taken over. This I can say with 100% certainty, without any official press release, else we deserve losing Arunachal. We need to set LAC aggressively outwards from now on. The land PLA is in, is ours. We need to appraise UN members of China's illegal occupation of Aksai China & Skaksgam Valley, call out China openly. I hope Modi, Rajnath, Jaishankar and Doval can grow a pair of balls now.

                              Right Wing !== Modi/BJP, I hope Bhakts understand this difference. Not taking a shot at you DE, it's for banned lurkers.
                              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                                Here's one from stratnews

                                Your post is Jul 25 this one came out a few days ago
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Sep 20,, 16:08.

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