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Border face-off: China and India each deploy 3,000 troops

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  • She's Chinese on the ISPR payroll most likely.

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    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      She's Chinese on the ISPR payroll most likely.
      Chinese have the money, why would they be on Beggaristan's payroll. It's a fake account from ISPR. Or most probably outsourced to ISPR by MSS.

      From your twitter link, see below.

      Click image for larger version  Name:	Screenshot 2020-09-13 at 6.33.09 AM.png Views:	0 Size:	234.2 KB ID:	1565798

      PLA captured Chushul airstrip?

      OMG, these Pakistanis are so....LMAO!!!

      Do you know, there was an Indian defence forums run by Paks (still run I guess)? Longggg back, when challenged, the Pakistani Admin posted his scanned Indian passport copy as proof. This issue went right upto BR forum. I unmasked that Pakistani troll. These Pak trolls can't even make a fake passport. Worthless country with some worthless people. Faking is an art. If one uses it for hate, propaganda and to spout lies, it unmasks itself. I can not only smell, I can also sense a fake account when I see one. And Paks, well, I can smell them from 100 miles.
      Last edited by Oracle; 13 Sep 20,, 05:13.
      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Oracle View Post

        Chinese have the money, why would they be on Beggaristan's payroll. It's a fake account from ISPR. Or most probably outsourced to ISPR by MSS.
        Because she tweets in Englsh and is technically breaking the law by using a VPN to do so.

        I looked her up to find Shiv's reply to one of her tweet which i posted above.
        Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Sep 20,, 15:33.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
          Because she tweets in Englsh and is technically breaking the law by using a VPN to do so.

          I looked her to find Shiv's reply to one of her tweet which i posted above.
          She is not breaking any law by using a VPN if instructed by the MSS.

          Look, ordinary Chinese are not trolls like ordinary Paks. Nor are common Chinese, jihadis, like Pak Abduls. I find it hard to believe that She, if Chinese, would do it for money. MSS and ISI collaboration could be, or just a 50 center. But I still will stick to ISPR troll masquerading as a Chinese woman. These losers (ISPR) have done it many times before. Do you remember the Arab princess saga some months back? ROFL!!!
          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

          Comment


          • Let's look at this joint statement again.

            There is no mention of LAC instead the term 'border areas' is used.

            There is no mention of status quo ante either.

            Do we want status quo ante after taking the heights in Pangong Tzo ? i don't think so.

            They moved up to finger 4 in early May. We tried asking nicely for four months and then moved up the heights.

            So status quo ante means we have to come down and they have to move back to finger 8. Not happening which is probably why we took to the heights.

            I'm not sure whether LAC not being mentioned here is significant or not.

            One thing is clear though and that is is the situation has become more complicated and harder to resolve.

            Their actions on Jun 15 at Galwan and ours Aug end.

            What does the Indian side want ?

            Foreign minister said disengagement. Meaning a reduction of troops on both sides.
            Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Sep 20,, 16:19.

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            • Originally posted by Oracle View Post

              She is not breaking any law by using a VPN if instructed by the MSS.

              Look, ordinary Chinese are not trolls like ordinary Paks. Nor are common Chinese, jihadis, like Pak Abduls. I find it hard to believe that She, if Chinese, would do it for money. MSS and ISI collaboration could be, or just a 50 center. But I still will stick to ISPR troll masquerading as a Chinese woman. These losers (ISPR) have done it many times before. Do you remember the Arab princess saga some months back? ROFL!!!
              So you're saying its an abdul masquerading as some Chinese woman ?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                In the midst of the GPCR, the Vietnam War, and the Sino-Soviet split. Too many enemies inside and outside of China for Mao to even consider another foreign adventure.
                This does beg the question why India didn't push further given there was no reaction. If China was under such pressure we could have tried for more.

                But, what would be the objective. Ladakh was occupied. Get back Aksai Chin ? not much roads built there five years later so it would be difficult.

                The biggest reason i think lay in how the clash came about.

                The orders from Delhi where to withdraw if Chinese opened fire at Nathu La or Jelep La.

                General commanding Jelep La pulled back. The one at Nathu La stood his ground.

                He had to decide between getting permission from the army chief in Delhi or to use artillery and save his men.

                He decided to go with the latter and take responsiblity.

                So Nathu La came about because the general in charge disobeyed orders.

                Delhi had no intention of taking on the Chinese after 1962

                One recalcitrant general showed the way and it was his good fortune that China didn't start another war over it.

                Comment




                • Tibetan leader Dolma Gyari comes across as a person who doesn’t mince her words. So she says she wants India to shed its cautious approach on Tibet and recognise it as a territory that’s under the illegal occupation of China.

                  In this interview with StratNews Global Deputy Editor Parul Chandra, Gyari also wants New Delhi to use the ‘Tibet card’ to greater effect with the Chinese.

                  Gyari’s words have great import as she’s a possible Sikyong (Prime Minister) of the Tibetan-Government-In-Exile, formally known as the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA). Gyari, while all praise for India in standing up to Chinese attempts at expansionism in eastern Ladakh and also says that Beijing cannot be trusted.

                  A former home minister in the CTA, Gyari is all set to contest the elections for the Sikyong to be held early next year. She’s a strong contender for the post, having previously been the home minister and a four time member of Parliament of the CTA. If Gyari wins, she’ll become the first woman to occupy the post. While Gyari says she believes in the Middle Way approach on Tibet–autonomy within the Chinese framework–she doesn’t want the approach to be a passive one, warning that China can be “mischievous” otherwise.
                  She isn't asking for independence but autonomy since the earlier talks in 2001 to 2007 fizzled out. They fizzled out because while the talks were on China enacted a living buddhas law which upset them. After that we got the self immolating monks.

                  She wants Tibet to be a party to the boundary talks. She wants a Tibet where its people can live in dignity and the 100k or so refugees in India can return to their homeland.

                  She think India has a once in fifty year chance to resolve this problem and it is only India that can do it.

                  The only question is how we go about it and what the costs involved will be. These crucial bits are left unanswered.

                  Suffice to say everybody in the comments agreed with her. Great.

                  Slogans are easy, making them work is something else.
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Sep 20,, 12:06.

                  Comment


                  • Let's see where this path takes us.


                    To derecognise Tibet as part of China | CLAWS | Nov 19 2011

                    Almost ten years later from the same author

                    What will happen if India recognizes Tibet? | IDR | Jul 17 2020


                    There is nothing to be scared of. For instance, China is unlikely to launch a war against India for these steps, though it will definitely threaten India. However, the dog that barks the most often feels weak. China may use all rhetoric and innuendo to frighten India, but India needn’t budge. After a bit, China will get used to the new reality, especially when other countries follow in India’s footsteps.

                    However, if China does start a war, India can hold its own. This is not to mention that major countries will come to back India in material, military, and economic ways. China will never launch a nuclear war against India because it goes against their rational nuclear policy.
                    It would seem the resistance to the idea is purely psychological.

                    The Dalai Lama thinks it would make life harder for his people in Tibet

                    Indian politicans are afraid of the consequences as are 'some' Indian generals


                    The Tibetan Blunder: The West has finally realized its folly and is busy correcting a 70-year-old mistake |TFI Post | May 28 2020


                    US Representative Scott Perry has tabled a bill in the US Congress which seeks to “authorise the President to recognise Tibet the Autonomous Region of the Republic of China as a separate, independent country”.
                    Essentially the same thing but for the US. Will have to see how this bill survives in Congress and whether it gets made into law.

                    H.R. 6948

                    Been referred to the house committee on foreign relations.
                    Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Sep 20,, 11:23.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post

                      So you're saying its an abdul masquerading as some Chinese woman ?
                      Yes, but I could be wrong, mainly because I have not tracked her opinions and digital footprints. I get to know her from you.
                      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                      Comment


                      • China watching: President, PM, key Opposition leaders, Cabinet, CMs, Chief Justice of India…the list goes on

                        Calling itself a pioneer in using big data for “hybrid warfare” and the “great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation,” a Shenzen-based technology company with links to the Chinese government, and the Chinese Communist Party, is monitoring over 10,000 Indian individuals and organisations in its global database of “foreign targets,” an investigation by The Indian Express has revealed.

                        The range of targets in India identified and monitored in real time by Zhenhua Data Information Technology Co. Limited is sweeping — in both breadth and depth.

                        From President Ram Nath Kovind and Prime Minister Narendra Modi to Congress interim President Sonia Gandhi and their families; Chief Ministers Mamata Banerjee, Ashok Gehlot and Amarinder Singh to Uddhav Thackeray, Naveen Patnaikand Shivraj Singh Chouhan; Cabinet Ministers Rajnath Singh and Ravi Shankar Prasad to Nirmala Sitharaman, Smriti Irani, and Piyush Goyal; Chief of Defence Staff Bipin Singh Rawat to at least 15 former Chiefs of the Army, Navy and Air Force; Chief Justice of India Sharad Bobde and brother judge AM Khanwilkar to Lokpal Justice P C Ghose and Comptroller and Auditor General G C Murmu; start-up tech entrepreneurs like Nipun Mehra, founder of Bharat Pe (an Indian payment app), and Ajay Trehan of AuthBridge, an authentication technology firm, to top industrialists Ratan Tata and Gautam Adani.

                        Not just influential individuals in the political and official establishment, Indians being monitored cut across disciplines. They include bureaucrats in key positions; judges; scientists and academicians; journalists; actors and sportspersons; religious figures and activists. And even hundreds accused of financial crime, corruption, terrorism, and smuggling of narcotics, gold, arms or wildlife.

                        This assumes significance when an increasingly assertive China is locked in a simmering standoff with India along the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh and is pushing against many of its neighbours in the region and beyond. Indeed, Zhenhua claims it works with Chinese intelligence, military and security agencies.

                        Over two months, The Indian Express, using big-data tools, investigated the meta data from Zhenhua’s operations to extract Indian entities from the massive dump of log files that constituted what the company called Overseas Key Information Database (OKIDB). This database, using advanced language, targeting and classification tools. included hundreds of entries without any explicit markers.



                        It has entries from United States, United Kingdom, Japan, Australia, Canada, Germany and the United Arab Emirates, was obtained through a network of researchers from a source connected to the company based in Shenzhen City in Guangdong province, south-east China.

                        Citing “risk and safety,” the source did not wish to be named.

                        Working through a professor in Vietnam, Christopher Balding, who has taught in Shenzhen, the source shared data with news organisations that include The Indian Express, The Australian Financial Review, Italy’s Il Foglioand The Daily Telegraph, London.

                        Key to the monitoring process is Zhenhua Data’s avowed goal of mining data to push what it calls “hybrid warfare” — using non-military tools to achieve dominance or damage, subvert or influence. These tools include, in its own words, “information pollution, perception management and propaganda.”

                        Records show that Zhenhua was registered as a company in April 2018 and set up 20 processing centres across countries and regions. It counts the Chinese government and military among its clients.

                        A detailed questionnaire sent to the email ids mentioned in the company’s website http://www.china-revival.com on September 1 has not elicited any response. In fact, the company took down its website on September 9, and it is no longer accessible.

                        When a correspondent visited the Shenzhen headquarters of Zhenhua Data and presented a list of questions which included those from The Indian Express, a company staffer, who declined to offer her name, said: “Sorry, these questions touch upon our trade secrets. It’s not convenient to disclose.”

                        But responding to questions from The Indian Express, a Chinese Embassy source in Delhi said, “China has not asked and will not ask companies or individuals to collect or provide data, information and intelligence stored within other countries’ territories for the Chinese government by installing “backdoors” or by violating local laws.”

                        The source, however, did not answer specific queries if the Chinese government and the military were clients of Zhenhua Data as claimed by the company, or to what purpose the Chinese government used the OKIDB data, if it did.

                        “What I would like to point out is that the Chinese government has been asking Chinese companies to strictly abide by local laws and regulations when doing business overseas; this position will not change,” the Embassy source said.

                        Scraping information from the web and social media platforms, tracking research papers, articles, patents, recruitment positions, Zhenhua’s monitoring services map what it calls person information and relationship mining – networks among individuals, institutions and organisations, and changes in their leadership positions based on information from multiple sources.

                        No wonder then that OKIDB also builds family trees.

                        The Indian Express investigation has shown that OKIDB tracks the relatives of, among others, Prime Minister Modi (wife Jashodaben); President Kovind (wife Savita Kovind); former PM Manmohan Singh (wife Gursharan Kaur and their daughters Upinder, Daman, Amrit); Sonia Gandhi (husband, the late Rajiv, son Rahul Gandhi, daughter Priyanka Gandhi Vadra); Smriti Irani (husband Zubin Irani); Harsimrat Kaur (husband Sukhbir Singh Badal, brother Bikram Singh Majithia and father Satyajit Singh Majithia); Akhilesh Yadav (father Mulayam, wife Dimple, father-in-law R C Rawat, uncles Shivpal Singh and Ram Gopal).

                        On Zhenhua’s list of those being monitored are former chief ministers Raman Singh, Ashok Chavan and Siddaramaiah; leaders of political parties, the late M Karunanidhi of DMK, the late Kanshi Ram of Bahujan Samaj Party and RJD’s Lalu Prasad Yadav. The database has a strategic collection of over 250 Indian bureaucrats and diplomats, including Foreign Secretary Harsh Vardhan Shringla; Niti Aayog CEO Amitabh Kant; as many as 23 former and current Chief Secretaries and over a dozen former and current police chiefs of states.

                        Those from the news media named in the list include: N Ravi, who was last week named The Hindu Group chairman; Zee News Editor-in-Chief Sudhir Chaudhary; India Today Group Consulting Editor Rajdeep Sardesai; former media advisor in the Prime Minister’s Office Sanjaya Baru; and The Indian Express Chief Editor Raj Kamal Jha.

                        Key names in sports, culture and religion also figure in the list. Former cricketer Sachin Tendulkar, film director Shyam Benegal, classical dancer Sonal Mansingh, former Akal Takht Jathedar Gurbachan Singh, several bishops and Archbishops of churches, self-styled god-woman Radhe Maa (Sukhwinder Kaur); Bibi Jagir Kaur, the first woman to be elected Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee for the second time, and Hardev Singh of the Nirankari Mission, are being monitored.

                        “Every country does this in one way or the other, that’s the job of foreign intelligence. But using big data science and technology, Beijing has, clearly, taken it to the next level,” said Robert Potter, a Canberra-based cyber security, tech and data expert, who worked with the source to verify the electronic antecedents of the Zhenhua data set.

                        “Just looking at the range of people they are getting information on shows that they are very serious about the strategic value of hybrid warfare. These are their information assets and tracking them on a continuous basis, their work, their families, their movements, their leadership roles, their organisations is invaluable data that can be leveraged in countless ways,” Potter said.
                        We should have been the one doing that 2 decades earlier. Democracies are run by fools.

                        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                        Comment


                        • China is watching — Political Establishment: 5 PMs, two dozen CMs, 350 MPs across all parties dominate key influencers tracked

                          Chinese firm that tracks influential Indians also harvested data of over 35,000 Australians

                          China is watching — Hybrid warfare: What data they collect, why cause for concern

                          China bugged our embassies twice, yet we didn't learn anything from it. The lord helps, those who help themselves. Incorrigible. UPSC exams for bureaucrats needs to be abolished.




                          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                          Comment


                          • The Chinese Army Flops in India. What Will Xi Do Next? | Opinion

                            In China, "another brutal purge" is coming.

                            Ruler Xi Jinping, already roiling the Communist Party with a "rectification" campaign and mass persecution of foes, has risked his future with recent high-profile incursions into Indian-controlled territory.

                            Unfortunately for Xi, he is the "architect" of these aggressive moves into India and his People's Liberation Army (PLA) has unexpectedly flopped.

                            The Chinese army's failures on the Indian border will have consequences. As an initial matter, they give Xi an excuse to pick up the pace of replacing adversaries in the armed forces with loyal elements. Heads, therefore, will roll.

                            More important, the failures motivate China's aggressive ruler—who as chairman of the Party's Central Military Commission, is the leader of the PLA—to launch another offensive against Indian positions.

                            Beginning in early May, Chinese forces advanced south of the Line of Actual Control, the temporary border between the two giants, principally in three separate areas in Ladakh, high in the Himalayas. The boundary is not well-defined, and for years Chinese troops trespassed into Indian-controlled territory, especially after Xi became Party general secretary in November 2012.

                            The May incursions took New Delhi by surprise. As Cleo Paskal of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies tells Newsweek, Moscow in April had assured India that large-scale Chinese maneuvers in its Tibet Autonomous Region were not preparations for a move below the Line.

                            China also took India by surprise on June 15 in the Galwan Valley, the northernmost of the three areas of incursion. In a premediated move, Chinese troops killed 20 Indian soldiers. It was the first deadly confrontation between the two giants in 45 years.

                            Beijing is accustomed to getting its way in disputed territory, especially because Indian leaders and soldiers, "psychologically paralyzed" by their loss in the 1962 border war with China, played only defense.

                            Paralyzed no more. China is thought to have suffered at least 43 deaths in the Galwan clash. Paskal says the number of Chinese killed could exceed 60. Indian troops fought back ferociously. Beijing won't admit the extent of the debacle.

                            Then, beginning late last month, for the first time in a half-century, India carried out an offensive against China, taking back high ground the Chinese recently grabbed. China's forces were surprised when Indian troops mounted their attempt to retake strategic high points. Stunned Chinese soldiers retreated.

                            China's subsequent efforts to counter the Indian moves proved ineffective. At least for the moment, India's troops, in the southernmost of the three areas of conflict, are in control of territory once in Chinese hands.

                            Can the Dragon fight? The Ground Force of the People's Liberation Army can move against undefended targets, as a series of incursions south of the Line of Actual Control demonstrate, but it is not clear how effective it is in battle.

                            The Ground Force does not have a track record of success in contested situations. Its last major engagement was in 1979 when, in the effort to "teach Vietnam a lesson," the Chinese launched what they called a "defensive counterattack" into Vietnamese territory and, in the process, were repelled and humiliated by their much smaller neighbor.

                            Now, after decades of an unprecedented modernization effort, the Ground Force is far better equipped and trained, but it is apparently not much more effective on the battlefield.

                            India is not giving the invaders the opportunity to improve. Both sides have just accused the other of violating decades-old rules of engagement by firing warning shots. It appears, however, the Chinese are the ones closer to the truth: India's troops are displaying newfound boldness.

                            India has effectively ditched these rules intended to limit casualties. "The game has changed," Paskal told me. "You can say the Indians are more aggressive or more aggressively defensive, but they are in fact bolder and better."

                            We are going to learn more about Chinese capabilities soon. The setback in the Himalayas poses problems for Xi, which means it poses a problem for everyone else. Jayadeva Ranade, a former senior Indian intelligence official and now head of the New Delhi-based Centre for China Analysis and Strategy, said Xi needs "a victory" and could force further conflict in Ladakh.

                            In that conflict, the Chinese, Richard Fisher of the Virginia-based International Assessment and Strategy Center tells Newsweek, could roll out "joint mechanized warfare for which they have been preparing for 30 years."

                            Given the rapid buildup of Indian forces and their high state of readiness, Xi is not assured of the success that Ranade believes he craves and needs—especially because India's army has brought mechanized vehicles of its own to Ladakh.

                            In China's highly politicized system, the setbacks in Ladakh cannot be perceived as Xi's fault, so he will almost surely purge elements of the military. "PLA leaders begin to see little choice but to undertake offensive military actions to avoid becoming a victim of Xi's internal terror," Fisher says.

                            "What we are learning in 2020," Fisher notes, "is that Xi wants victories, and as the PLA is judged to have reached requisite levels of strength by rearming and reorganization, Xi is increasingly willing to use the military."

                            China's leader has shown he is good at political mobilization of the army and that he can spend large sums on military equipment. He has also perfected the art of intimidating other countries.

                            Xi Jinping, however, has yet to show his military, in a fight, is worth a damn.

                            Other nations will take notice that China's military is deficient. Why is the PLA less than the sum of its parts? It can be excessive political control of army operations—a problem in all communist militaries—or something else. Yet the failure to push around the Indian military means Xi's ability to intimidate anyone is much reduced.

                            Unfortunately, it looks like China's leader, who had looked invincible, now has something to prove. As a result, he appears absolutely determined to make his point by launching another attempt to break India apart.

                            Gordon G. Chang is the author of The Coming Collapse of China. Follow him on Twitter: @GordonGChang.
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                            • Good God, everybody thinks that these chest puffing exercises are actual battles.
                              Chimo

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                              • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                                Good God, everybody thinks that these chest puffing exercises are actual battles.
                                If you want to see actual battle, then put up your collection of Scotch as winners' prize.
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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