China - 21 dead in terrorist attack

[lemontree]

Captain,

Any particular reason for you to say this?

They were viewing jihad videos and were in possession of illegal bladed weopons when the first 3 community workers visited their house.

- No educated Chinese netizen will make such comments, this is standard fare for their cyber brigade.
- You will also notice that they only surface when adverse comments are being made against the official Chinese media version, then they dive back into the depths they came from.
- You dont see them around commenting on very happening events that are being discussed on WAB.

I may be wrong, but that is what comes across from some posters.

[Doktor]

- No educated Chinese netizen will make such comments, this is standard fare for their cyber brigade.
- You will also notice that they only surface when adverse comments are being made against the official Chinese media version, then they dive back into the depths they came from.
- You dont see them around commenting on very happening events that are being discussed on WAB.

I may be wrong, but that is what comes across from some posters.

From the other posts of the particular poster I didn't got that impression.

However, going trough your list I have a "suspect" of my own ;)

[cdude]

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News report with lots of details on how it went down. Google translate is your friend.

[hanswu25]

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News report with lots of details on how it went down. Google translate is your friend.

Same crap from other government media. If they were aware of an terrorist plot. Why not issue a search warrant and conduct proper arrest? Why sent three community workers there to do what? To convince them to give up their explosive and remote detonator? And all of that happens only ten meters away from a government building and police station. Yeah ask me to believe it.

[Doktor]

Thanks for the quick translation.

[cdude]

List of killed cops/community workers

10 Uighurs / 3 Hans and 2 Mongols

[cdude]

[ATTACH]32851[/ATTACH]

List of killed cops/community workers

10 Uighurs / 3 Hans and 2 Mongols

The pictures are photoshopped and the identities are all made up by the government. You commie bastard better improve your PS skillz. Uighurs wearing ties? You want me to believe that?


-- Internet tough dude

[Officer of Engineers]

I still can't get it through my head. Knives in a gun fight.

[USSWisconsin]

The pictures are photoshopped and the identities are all made up by the government. You commie bastard better improve your PS skillz. Uighurs wearing ties? You want me to believe that?


-- Internet tough dude

Did you just post this and then come back debunking your own post? What are you doing?

[cdude]

Did you just post this and then come back debunking your own post? What are you doing?

Yeah. The Internet Tough Dude inside me took over and did some crazy shit.

[kyli]

If people don't believe Chinese sources it is because they have a track record of being organs for government propaganda. Further, because of the control the Chinese government continues to exercise over media & free speech it isn't possible to be sure that falsehoods & innacuracies will be exposed. Are you familiar with the story of the boy who cried wolf? Applies here. They may well be reporting events with complete accuracy, but they have not earned the right to expect the outside world to accept what they say at face value.

Like every other news organization the BBC is imperfect, but its reputation is considerably better than anything China-based & with good reason (this isn't an invitation for a list of Chinese grievances against western media - assume that I've seen it all before & we can both move on).

I would concede that the western media have done a better job in reporting their domestic issues. However, this is not true for international events or anything involved with their ideology. The thing is I held the western media in a higher standard than the state media controlled by the Chinese government, but too often I caught them lying. Telling a fewer lies than the Chinese media doesn't make them more credible. Sometimes it made them more danger because people would blatantly accept their lies. Unlike the Chinese media, people are willing to question them because people don't fully trust them.

More importantly, it is not just the media but the one who does the reporting that we should consider. What is this person's view and his or her previous reporting on similar issues? After reading a handful of articles from this particular journalist, let say I don't trust him.

As for the events in question, we simply don't know enough about what has happened to make confident judgements. If all these guys had was knives & axes then the 'terrorist acts' they were planning were pretty pathetic. Perhaps that is what they were planning. We don't know. Perhaps they were a group of fundamentalists in a dispute with local authorities that took a violent turn. That the violence was most probably unjustified doesn't necessarily make them 'terrorists'.

As for your 'what if', I'll give you one. Lets imagine there is an incident in the US involving an armed fundamentalist Christian group. Lets say government officials enter the house with the intent to enforce laws on dress code or religious custom - elements of the religion that have no impact on others (like facial hair or dress, for instance). Lets further imagine that this degenerates into violence & a bunch of government officials die. Would it be reported as terrorism? By some outlets. No doubt the government and law enforcement would present that narrative. Plenty of others (including past & present members of this forum) would most likely disagree in the strongest possible terms.

If you want some examples you already have Waco. I would also point to the bombing of a house occupied by MOVE activists in Philadelphia or Ruby Ridge. In all cases there is a substantial body of opinon - some of it official in nature - highly critical of the action of law enforcement. Each of the groups there met the definition of 'terrorist' at least as well as what we know so far about the group in China.

Even if I accepted the BBC's reporting, the reporting implied a situation which things turned bad in a mere dispute but not an attempt from the law enforcement to attack the compound. You can't simply believe three community workers without gun or knives pose a threat to these people enough that they have to kill them in order to protect themselves. In addition, French which enacted a law that is similar like the Chinese, no veil in the public place. If somebody used this as the excuse to kill a dozen of people, is this a terror act or not. I don't know. Maybe it is just that I have lost faith in Media and people. I can still remember the full power of propaganda prior to the invasion of Iraq. The ability to silence people without pulling a trigger is a propaganda of art.

[cdude]

I would concede that the western media have done a better job in reporting their domestic issues. However, this is not true for international events or anything involved with their ideology. The thing is I held the western media in a higher standard than the state media controlled by the Chinese government, but too often I caught them lying. Telling a fewer lies than the Chinese media doesn't make them more credible. Sometimes it made them more danger because people would blatantly accept their lies. Unlike the Chinese media, people are willing to question them because people don't fully trust them.

More importantly, it is not just the media but the one who does the reporting that we should consider. What is this person's view and his or her previous reporting on similar issues? After reading a handful of articles from this particular journalist, let say I don't trust him.






Even if I accepted the BBC's reporting, the reporting implied a situation which things turned bad in a mere dispute but not an attempt from the law enforcement to attack the compound. You can't simply believe three community workers without gun or knives pose a threat to these people enough that they have to kill them in order to protect themselves. In addition, French which enacted a law that is similar like the Chinese, no veil in the public place. If somebody used this as the excuse to kill a dozen of people, is this a terror act or not. I don't know. Maybe it is just that I have lost faith in Media and people. I can still remember the full power of propaganda prior to the invasion of Iraq. The ability to silence people without pulling a trigger is a propaganda of art.

You are asking people to pull their heads out of their asses. How much does the CCP pay you?

[USSWisconsin]

I don't believe anyone here is claiming this isn't a criminal act, it appears to be a serious crime - involving multiple "cop killings" which started when the authorities attempted to arrest the criminals. The question that is being posed is "is this terrorism?", not "is this just ordinary citizens rightfully defending their homes?".

Using the term terrorism to describe other types of crimes dilutes the meaning of terrorism, which is political and involves the attempts to kill people for no reason; criminal or justifiable, beyond the frightening and scaring of the citizens of a country. These victims here appear to be law enforcement officers involved in making an arrest (based on the news media information that the discussion participants have seen here). Criminals sometimes murder law enforcement people to avoid arrest and escape, without being terrorists. They are still dangerous criminals and what they are doing is very wrong - but terrorism may not be their intent or motive.

[Blademaster]

Yeah. The Internet Tough Dude inside me took over and did some crazy shit.

I rest my case.

[Officer of Engineers]

This sounds like more of a walking clusterfuck by both sides. If these were indeed terrorists, they sure are bunch of stupid ones. They were discovered and instead of running away, they chose to fight with inferior weapons and an inferior position (they were surrounded).

The cops with guns against knives and suffered greater casualties.

I certainly taking either side at their word about this incident.