End of the Imaginary Durand Line

[gilgamesh]

Facts are Facts they are not based on what ever you want to believe. No need to get jealous

Pakistanis are distinct from Indians thats the point. Differences in Genetic Markers or Haplogroups mean that you are different biologcally and has no bearing on colour you might be all black or all white still diffenrt get it

Nobody has any desire to be other than what they are , following are migratory routes of the M9 marker the M201 and M69 and those present in India


See for yourself the migratory routes taken by carries of the genetic markers M9 mentiond , you dont believe it you dont have to

Indeed, Indians dropped straight from heaven into Harappa.
And did not move from Africa via Arabia like Paks.

[Ray]

The only thing that is connected to Arabs which is good is the Arabian horse.

The offsprings are good so long as the strain is pure.

It is not so normally when not in its parental climes!

[Ray]

Greenman,

I take it that the Mohajirs are Arabs as are the others in Pakistan.

Funny that one does not know what happened to the poor souls converted by the sword of Islam when the Moslem hordes invaded India. Or were all the Moslems found in India thereafter and even now, the elements of the Moslem hordes, pure, pristine and unwashed!

It is all greengas with a touch of gobargas and gobar!

[Ray]

Indeed, Indians dropped straight from heaven into Harappa.

No, the Moslems are.

They are associated with lunar icons.

Hillal and stuff like that.

The Moon has many connotation to the psychology of man!

[Green_Man]

Greenman,

I take it that the Mohajirs are Arabs as are the others in Pakistan.

Funny that one does not know what happened to the poor souls converted by the sword of Islam when the Moslem hordes invaded India. Or were all the Moslems found in India thereafter and even now, the elements of the Moslem hordes, pure, pristine and unwashed!

It is all greengas with a touch of gobargas and gobar!

These routes represent human migration till 10,000 BC , more than likely in 10,000 BC there wasnt even a place called Arabia!

All Im saying is that Pakistanis and Indians are NOT the same! Thats a fact not from now but you can say from alomst the begining of time and not much has changed. There were no series of great migrations from east to west ( none that can be traced by DNA ) in the subcontinent ( From India to Pakistan side ) that saw a mass change in the make up of the populations in current day Pakistan.

The series of conquests that came afterwards , way after 10,000 BC all came from west to east in the sub-continent. So they too could not have changed the demography of current day Pakistan to resemble that of India since they
all came from the other side.

Coming back to my point that the two people have always been different , why is that so hard to accept ?

Dititicnition is on the bais of what you carry on the Y-chromosomes ( your paternal lineage ) or based on mito-chondrial dna ( your materlanl lineage ). Either way the two populations are not the same

Makes us different thats the point , no more of 'we are all indians'

The Muslim conquests came around 900+ AD , might have had some change in the demography but nothing comapred to the 1000s upon 1000s of years of human settlements and movements that come into current day Pakistan.

It is based on these that there is tracable disticintion between the two populations , no amout of discredeting by Indians will change that.

I fail to understans why you'll promote , 'we are all inidan' ( which we arnt ofcourse ) and yet spit venom against Pakistan so vhemently.

Also I fail to understand why the constant rant of ' Pakistanis are same as Indians' by others ( like this stupid Iranian ) , where as we are not.

Id like to know why , what drives people to lump us with Bhinida

[Alamgir]

Also I fail to understand why the constant rant of ' Pakistanis are same as Indians' by others ( like this stupid Iranian ) , where as we are not.

Id like to know why , what drives people to lump us with Bhinida

Because you are the same as Indians.

What you pretend not to realize is that your languages, cultures, food, customs and everything else between Pakistanis and Indians is the same and that you were Indians up until your country was separated into a new state for Indian Muslims. And thats just the point. The only thing that separates Pakistan and India is religion, that was the only basis for your country. Any book, article or write-up i've read on the subcontinent makes no mention of any separate nation or race called Pakistanis. I had a keen interest in Moghal history at one point and it is clear to me (as it was to them) that the people of the subcontinent (thats west of the Indus) are a single entity. Im not denying that there must exist some diversity in your part of the World, but essentially, you're all the same and belong to the same common stock and civilization.

Id agree that Baloch and Pashtun areas of Pakistan are different from India, but the rest of Pakistan is basically India, just Islamic. I find it laughable but sad at the same time that Indians and Pakistanis deny this these days. But thats your choice. Just dont expect others to overlook your common history because your two countries are worst enemies.

BTW, you must have some kind of selective reading and vision disorder because those links you posted about the genetic stuff proves that Pakistanis are Indians, genetically. Maybe you should go for that test and find out how Indian you really are, lolz,,

Ps, Cant seem to escape Indian vs Pakistani topics on the net anymore. Same stuff was even being discussed on Iranian forums by subcontinent people.

[Tronic]

all of these land in India... even M9 lands right beside India, and since Pakistan is not ethnic based, it doesn't mean that thats where M9 stops... and this doesn't mean that one is of Arab decendency, going by this link, the Arabs are the decendents of the Africans and the Europeans are also the decendants of Arabs!!!

[Green_Man]

Because you are the same as Indians.

What you pretend not to realize is that your languages, cultures, food, customs and everything else between Pakistanis and Indians is the same and that you were Indians up until your country was separated into a new state for Indian Muslims. And thats just the point. The only thing that separates Pakistan and India is religion, that was the only basis for your country. Any book, article or write-up i've read on the subcontinent makes no mention of any separate nation or race called Pakistanis. I had a keen interest in Moghal history at one point and it is clear to me (as it was to them) that the people of the subcontinent (thats west of the Indus) are a single entity. Im not denying that there must exist some diversity in your part of the World, but essentially, you're all the same and belong to the same common stock and civilization.

Id agree that Baloch and Pashtun areas of Pakistan are different from India, but the rest of Pakistan is basically India, just Islamic. I find it laughable but sad at the same time that Indians and Pakistanis deny this these days. But thats your choice. Just dont expect others to overlook your common history because your two countries are worst enemies.

BTW, you must have some kind of selective reading and vision disorder because those links you posted about the genetic stuff proves that Pakistanis are Indians, genetically. Maybe you should go for that test and find out how Indian you really are, lolz,,

Ps, Cant seem to escape Indian vs Pakistani topics on the net anymore. Same stuff was even being discussed on Iranian forums by subcontinent people.

Are you blind , cant you see the routes yourself! There is only a very tiny over lap in the Haplogroups and thats just about it. There is no better proof than DNA itself I cant explain it any more than what I have already done

As for the participation in the genogrphic project I have already done that, will post it here when I get the results and lay your claims to rest once and for all

and afterwards dont come up wiht the nonsense , ' ok so some diversity is there' that is NOT the case. I am from the heart of Pakistan , from Lahore , my family has been there for more then 3 genrations , what ever my lineage will be of those in the area that area.

I'll encourage all Pakistanis to participate in the Genographic project , it does not make you a racist but it only tell the truth with no political motives.

Dont fall for this crap that lumps you with India , its wrong , yes we are Muslims before anything else but this nonsense that 'Indians and Pakistanis are the same' is simply not true.

[Tronic]

wow... click on the M9 line, it gives you a description, and green you idiot, the M9 is from an Iranian man, not Arab... Well, anyways, click the line and read the description....

[Tronic]

Are you blind , cant you see the routes yourself! There is only a very tiny over lap in the Haplogroups and thats just about it. There is no better proof than DNA itself I cant explain it any more than what I have already done

you, dumbfk, you're only looking at the lines, click on them and read the description, it does not mean you're a fking arab decendent, heck, Chinese people migrated from Africa, through coastal Arabia, through India, through SE Asia and then to Japan, Korea, China; does that make them African, Arab, and Indian decendats???

do some reading on your own links...

[Archer]

Are you blind , cant you see the routes yourself! There is only a very tiny over lap in the Haplogroups and thats just about it. There is no better proof than DNA itself I cant explain it any more than what I have already done

As for the participation in the genogrphic project I have already done that, will post it here when I get the results and lay your claims to rest once and for all

and afterwards dont come up wiht the nonsense , ' ok so some diversity is there' that is NOT the case. I am from the heart of Pakistan , from Lahore , my family has been there for more then 3 genrations , what ever my lineage will be of those in the area that area.

I'll encourage all Pakistanis to participate in the Genographic project , it does not make you a racist but it only tell the truth with no political motives.

Dont fall for this crap that lumps you with India , its wrong , yes we are Muslims before anything else but this nonsense that 'Indians and Pakistanis are the same' is simply not true.

LOL LOL LOL

Look at the Arab wannabe squirm!

I am not an Indian, I never was, I couldnt be! I am a Central Asian, I am an Arab, I am a Turk, I am a Persian, but I couldnt possibly be genetically South Asian.

[Archer]

Greenman,

I take it that the Mohajirs are Arabs as are the others in Pakistan.

Funny that one does not know what happened to the poor souls converted by the sword of Islam when the Moslem hordes invaded India. Or were all the Moslems found in India thereafter and even now, the elements of the Moslem hordes, pure, pristine and unwashed!

It is all greengas with a touch of gobargas and gobar!

Oh sir, all those converts automatically became like the Arabs who errmm..purified them, and automatically became hung like horses and pure Arabs, overnight.

In fact, everyone in Pakistan is a direct descendant of the Prophet.

[Archer]

Those genetic markers prove that you are Indians, and dont come from the Middle East. Lolz, WTF? Pakistanis are Arab? LOLOL... None of the Pakistanis i know or have ever met even remotely resemble Arabs or anyone else from the Middle East. I agree with Azmal you people suffer from a deep-rooted inferiority complex. I even remember this one **** guy who tried to tell me that Pakistanis have Greek in them, LOL

Damn, i knew that Indians-Pakistanis are obsessed with being a few shades lighter than what they naturally are but making up lies about your ancestors being from Arabia or Greece or wherever is going too far.... hahahah... Must suck being Pakistani i guess..

Please dont club Indians into the insanity Pakistan is.

I couldnt give a rats aS$ about color or genetics- as far as I care, I am Indian. I have a civilizational heritage that stretches back thousands of years, and I am aware of it, and nor am I in denial about belonging to that culture and way of life to seek recourse in being a Viking or Arab or Chinese or whatever. I daresay, thats pretty much the attitude most Indians have.

As far as Pakistan goes..

..ermm Arab wannabes.

They have created a state on the express virtue of being "not Indian", read "not Hindu", as as far as Pakistan is concerned, India= Hindustan.

Hence, they will seek recourse in an alternative history.

Ergo, the confusion.

[Guest]

These routes represent human migration till 10,000 BC , more than likely in 10,000 BC there wasnt even a place called Arabia!

All Im saying is that Pakistanis and Indians are NOT the same! Thats a fact not from now but you can say from alomst the begining of time and not much has changed. There were no series of great migrations from east to west ( none that can be traced by DNA ) in the subcontinent ( From India to Pakistan side ) that saw a mass change in the make up of the populations in current day Pakistan.

The series of conquests that came afterwards , way after 10,000 BC all came from west to east in the sub-continent. So they too could not have changed the demography of current day Pakistan to resemble that of India since they
all came from the other side.

Coming back to my point that the two people have always been different , why is that so hard to accept ?

Dititicnition is on the bais of what you carry on the Y-chromosomes ( your paternal lineage ) or based on mito-chondrial dna ( your materlanl lineage ). Either way the two populations are not the same

Makes us different thats the point , no more of 'we are all indians'

The Muslim conquests came around 900+ AD , might have had some change in the demography but nothing comapred to the 1000s upon 1000s of years of human settlements and movements that come into current day Pakistan.

It is based on these that there is tracable disticintion between the two populations , no amout of discredeting by Indians will change that.

I fail to understans why you'll promote , 'we are all inidan' ( which we arnt ofcourse ) and yet spit venom against Pakistan so vhemently.

Also I fail to understand why the constant rant of ' Pakistanis are same as Indians' by others ( like this stupid Iranian ) , where as we are not.

Id like to know why , what drives people to lump us with Bhinida

Generally speaking….there is no difference in race, culture, language and history between India and Pakistan. Land west of Indus is called Bahrat by her inhabitant, Hindustan by Afghans and Persians, Hind by Arabs and India by British.
Indeed…there is nothing exclusive to the "territory" called Pakistan or populace called Pakistani that can form the basis of a distinct Pakistani identity. Islam is not specific to "Pakistanis" as Judiasm is specific to Jews (an unbreakable relationship between a race and a religion retained over millinia and live in the memories of successive generations---so the historical continuity). And although, you ***** have imported Urdu-Hindi and after "Islamizing" it, have defined it as a further element of Pakistani Identity, still every body knows that Urdu-Hindi has more to do with India than Pakistan. Equally interesting is the desperation of secular "Pakistani" ideologues/intellectuals to engineer/ construct (or should I say "fabricate") a distinct identity for Pakistan. For example, Itezaz Ahsan, in part, basis his distinct Pak-identity argument on Indus Valley Civilization, which he claims to be confined to Pakistan only. Either he doesn't know or is ignoring the fact that this civilization flourished over a vast area extending over parts of north-west India and Pakistan. Three of the major six centers of Harrapn Culture are in India. He also forgets that Indus Valley Civilization is a dead civilization, isolated in time, and probably space also, that couldn't pass, in any substantial way, its influences to any ethnicity inhabiting Pakistan now. He also doesn't take into account the fact that Pashtuns, Baluchis, Sindhis, and even Punjabis don't have any remotest sense of affiliation with Harrapan Civilization.
I think Pakistan is not a geopolitical, cultural, or ethnic continuity---the commonalities between various ethnicities in Pakistan are very few and contradictions too huge and too many.
Even more stupid is when using quasi-religious arguments in favor of Pakistan---- a secular nation created by the hands of the British, you cant just pick and choose
parts of Islam to justify its society and then ignore the rest. That is a travesty to Islam. Indeed, Muslims being one conglomerate nation never existed even during the times of the Khalifa rashideen. In fact its this view is exploiting the beautiful name of religion in justification of Angreez interest. How could we forget that Muslims are One Ummah , but Many nations?
Worst off Pakistan violate the sanctity of Islam by using Islam when it is convenient. Islam teaches us to be ruled by ourselves and not by others, and being apart of Pakistan a country which is not formed by our OWN authority is a violation of both ethics.

[Guest]

Pakistan is nothing. They have no history, no honour, nothing. They are the dogs of the British just like Israel. Both Pakistan and Israel were recognized as states in the same time period and both were the creations of the British. If you look into these two illegal states both have been equiped with nuclear power and both are on occupied lands. These two nations are the two sub largest terrorist supporting nations on this planet taking their orders by their western masters. Both these two so called "nations" have or trying to erect walls on the durrand in Afghanistan and Palestine, they both use their secret services supported by M16 and CIA to silence their/surrounding populations with terror tactics in Palestine, India and Afghanistan. If the Afghan people were united Pakistan would be a mere memory for they would turn Islamabad into a great bonfire. YOu can never compare Pakistanis to the noble Afghan people who have resisted foriegn rule for hundreds of years. One day Pashtuns will rise and take back their land, for the NWFP has now been called AFGHANIA the name of the empire of the first Afghan King. Pakistan has for too long terrorized the Afghan nation and meddled in their affairs, what goes around comes around.