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Pakistan preparing new offensive in North Waziristan.

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  • S2
    replied
    A.M.'s reading of P.A. policy since Kayani's ascension to COAS is accurate. The P.A. has made itself abundantly clear that it will reflect the political determination of the civilian authorities.

    They have no such determination. Thus, neither the military. This is acceptable from their POV insofar as the TTP's high tide was reached in the spring of 2009 and has since receded back into the tribal territories along the afghan border. As there's no immediate existential threat to the survival of the nation, there's no corresponding will/determination to act.

    Remember the levels of complaint needed by the west to provoke the Pakistani government into actively defending SWAT/Buner. Not much has changed since. As has been proven elsewhere these days, Pakistan also suffers from a lack of civilian statesmanship able to mobilize public opinion to a general consensus.

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  • Deltacamelately
    replied
    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    The government IS stopping the military from going beyond the isolated retaliatory attacks - the Army's position on this was made clear from the time Kayani became COAS in 2008, that the Civilian government had to buy off on, and own, any large scale military operation. That stance, whether one agrees with it or not, is necessary given the polarization within Pakistan over the Taliban and how to best handle them, and the fact that the TTP propaganda machine has chosen to also latch onto the narrative of the Army 'calling the shots as a Western Slave and undermining Pakistan's Islamic credentials and government'.
    When in the history of Pakistan, the PA got stopped by any civilian government, trying to do what the PA thought was in the best interest of that country? Sad, but these are all hollow excuses.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    As I stated Captain, the Taliban is willing to win this war. They may not be fully able but they willing. Pakistan is able but not willing. That says a hell of a lot.

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  • lemontree
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Oh for Pete's akes. The Taliban is throwing everything they've got at you and they're holding you at bay. The Pakistani State is more than capable of out-manning, out-gunning, out-manuevering, out-spend the TTP. The very fact you're throwing out these friggin empty excuses states just how committed you are to this fight.
    Sir, Please dont forget what we learn't about these cleric led insurgencies in the Haqqani thread.
    It worked wonders in the anti-Soviet war, and then in the creation of the Taliban and rule over Afghanistan.

    Pakistan cannot win this war, till it repeals the zakat ordinance, and destroys every Haqqaniya madarsa in the regions east of the Durand line.
    But will they destory the strategic proxies that have served them well against the NATO in Afghanistan and IA in Kashmir? They need them more, now with the NATO withdrawal from Afghanistan.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    You won't find me supporting the current government's 'dilly-dallying' over 'negotiations with the TTP'. But, that said, throwing out wild suggestions like 'impose martial law' and/or 'activate the reserves' (without taking into account the sustainability/feasibility of those options) is not something I can support either.
    Oh for Pete's akes. The Taliban is throwing everything they've got at you and they're holding you at bay. The Pakistani State is more than capable of out-manning, out-gunning, out-manuevering, out-spend the TTP. The very fact you're throwing out these friggin empty excuses states just how committed you are to this fight.

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  • Agnostic Muslim
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Declare Martial Law then. Mushurraf did it and your country is still standing.
    Even though I supported many of Musharraf's initiatives, it was an event that, overall, had a significant negative impact on Pakistan's evolution as a nation and would have an more negative impact on Pakistan's evolution if it occurred now. The ten years of Musharraf's rule were essentially a waste of time when analyzed from the perspective of developing a sustainable political and public response to the Taliban threat. Imposing martial law would destroy whatever little progress has been made on that front since 2008.
    Excuses. Excuses.
    The lack of resources and socio-political polarization over how to deal with the Taliban are facts - that you have been reduced to advocating for the 'imposition of martial law' as a solution shows how difficult these issues are to address.
    This is your own friggin country.
    Which does not change the fact that money does not grow on trees and that the civilian government is best option to develop a long term response to the Taliban.
    If you're not willing to fight for it no matter the cost, then someone else will. Someone else already is fighting for their own version of Pakistan no matter what their own cost.
    Imposing martial law is not the way to do it.
    Your enemies got the guts to give everything they've got.
    You don't.
    You won't find me supporting the current government's 'dilly-dallying' over 'negotiations with the TTP'. But, that said, throwing out wild suggestions like 'impose martial law' and/or 'activate the reserves' (without taking into account the sustainability/feasibility of those options) is not something I can support either.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Declare Martial Law then. Mushurraf did it and your country is still standing. Excuses. Excuses. This is your own friggin country. If you're not willing to fight for it no matter the cost, then someone else will. Someone else already is fighting for their own version of Pakistan no matter what their own cost.

    Your enemies got the guts to give everything they've got.

    You don't.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 02 Mar 14,, 01:13.

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  • Agnostic Muslim
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    From your own bloody coffers ...
    Which are pretty empty - the point being that its easy to just bandy about suggestions of 'activate the reserves', but much harder to actually implement when you get into the nitty gritty of actually paying for all that extra manpower and their deployment in the field.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    From your own bloody coffers. If you're not willing to win the war for yourself, I guarrantee you that you will not be the one winning the war.

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  • Agnostic Muslim
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    They don't have to reduce nothing. Just call out the bloody reserves.
    And where exactly is the money to train (COIN/FIBUA etc), equip and deploy those reserves going to come from?

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  • Agnostic Muslim
    replied
    Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    The million dollar question thus remains - When you are angry and nobody is stopping you from avenging yourself - Then why not kill the enemy for once and all?
    The government IS stopping the military from going beyond the isolated retaliatory attacks - the Army's position on this was made clear from the time Kayani became COAS in 2008, that the Civilian government had to buy off on, and own, any large scale military operation. That stance, whether one agrees with it or not, is necessary given the polarization within Pakistan over the Taliban and how to best handle them, and the fact that the TTP propaganda machine has chosen to also latch onto the narrative of the Army 'calling the shots as a Western Slave and undermining Pakistan's Islamic credentials and government'.
    Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 01 Mar 14,, 21:17.

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  • notorious_eagle
    replied
    Originally posted by Asim Aquil View Post
    Its still the military calling the shots on the war and the government is happy to let it be about them.

    There's just too much dishonesty in everything that Pakistani leaders engage in wrt to the war - granted its pretty much like everyone's leaders engaged in this war.

    This offensive is just going to be short lived. Its a means to rub their (generic Taliban/extremist) faces in the dirt after the 23 FC were killed. There was a sense of upper hand to the Taliban that was felt as the Taliban came to the table. There is no vision in mind with this operation, its just revenge killing and the government will let it happen since they are already annoying the military with the Musharraf trial.

    Revenge killing is useless. The right way would have been to go in and wipe them out - or even go in and hug it out. Take a decision. Decide who you are and who you want to co-exist with.

    But these guys are just liars. PML-N, military and even the media reporting on the whole matter.
    Asim

    That is not correct. The military has largely left matters to the Civilian Government. The military has realized that gone are the days when they could single handedly call the shots. In this case, its the PML-N Government that is calling the shots against the TTP. PA has been itching for the past 2 years to initiate an operation in NW but the Civilian Government of both PPP and PML-N have over ruled this.

    It is only because of the pressure from the politicians that PA has not been able to go to NW and wipe out these TTP Pigs. Right now, it appears that PML-N Government has decided against the military option and will proceed with dialogue which IMO is a very foolish decision.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    They don't have to reduce nothing. Just call out the bloody reserves.

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  • sated buddha
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    That is if the Pakistani Army retreats. They have more than enough numbers to not need to do so.
    So let me get this Colonel sir, as a non military man, because I am not. They have more than enough numbers to man both borders (ours and the Afghan-Iran one), and yet most of their forces are still eyeball to eyeball with ours. They would of course claim that such was not the case and cite their contribution in terms of fighting forces for the WOT. But I think no one really buys that (in terms of any permanent, large scale deployment). So you are essentially saying that they could manage us with much fewer men? If so, and they actually do permanently re-deploy to their west as you are suggesting they should, then conversely can we then leverage the same advantage in terms of change of status quo and redeploy now redundant forces elsewhere as well?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    That is if the Pakistani Army retreats. They have more than enough numbers to not need to do so.

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