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Documentary = Afghanistan: The Price of Revenge

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  • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Justice can exist outside of a community/nation provided the governments involved act to make such a thing possible - the US never even tried, choosing instead to engage in a decade long war of little consequence (with respect to destroying Al Qaeda/associated extremism).
    Is your point really about justice or about the loss Afghanistan & Pakistan incurred as a result of OBL's actions.

    That is to say a war that need not have been fought.

    Shortly after 9/11, the first question on everyone's minds is how do we get those who are responsible and prevent a recurrence. We've seen the answer, whether that was the right answer remains to be determined but in the last ten years are anything to go by, there have not been any notable attacks in the US since.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jun 13,, 15:45.

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    • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
      What was wrong with US attacking Taliban?
      The Taliban was officered and lead by Pakistani Army personel....they were getting clobbered - that is why "it was wrong" ;)

      Cheers!...on the rocks!!

      Comment


      • Originally Posted by TopHatter
        The regime publicly offered diddly-shit except stalling and obfuscating. They weren't going to give up OBL until hell froze over.
        He was, at the very least, an incredibly useful bargaining chip for extracting massive concessions (money, aid) from the United States.
        Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
        Perhaps, but the fact that the US refused to even try that route as an alternative to war was a 'criminal act'. What was the goal of the war?
        The US was bleed of large amounts of money by Musharraf and Pakistan, while they slyly hid OBL in Abbotabad.
        Nothing can explain this sort of national decadence. I marvel at your attempts to prove the US invasion in Afghanistan wrong, but I'm yet to see you debate on the terror wrecked buy OBL/ Taliban and their Pak Army leaders. You should be debating the terror/jihadi policies that have turned Pakistan into the cesspool that it has become.

        You guys can't even play decent cricket anymore, because no nation wants to come and play in your country. But that would be expecting too much, you too dont live in Pakistan!
        Last edited by lemontree; 18 Jun 13,, 11:25.

        Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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        • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
          Without a proper understanding of the consequences of war, the objectives, and exhausting non-military options to achieve said objectives it is those who 'demand war' that are living in la-la land and such a declaration of war is nothing but an irrational response.
          With that line of argument, you are actually convincing the bulk of us here that you understand squat about war and its declaration and the amount of brainstorming that goes behind it, calling it rather, Irrational Act. Are you arguing that the Battle Commanders lack a proper understanding of the consequences of war and their objectives? Whether non-military options are to be utilized or not, are decided based upon things like threat perception, nature of attack, casualty ratio, the magnitude of attack etc etc. And by any equation, attacks like 9/11 don't warrant negotiations with the perpetrators or their compatriots. They warrant outright declaration of war, sometimes preceded by calculated punitive demands. Now go back and re-read what Parihaka and OoE have been constantly trying to drill into your Talibanized grey matter.
          Last edited by Deltacamelately; 18 Jun 13,, 13:50.
          sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

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          • Originally posted by lemontree View Post
            ... by Musharraf and Pakistan, while they slyly hid OBL in Abbotabad.
            Paranoid conspiracy theory and unsubstantiated speculation - if you have any actual evidence that Musharraf and the Pakistani State were aware of OBL's location, feel free to present it.

            Nothing can explain this sort of national decadence. I marvel at your attempts to prove the US invasion in Afghanistan wrong, but I'm yet to see you debate on the terror wrecked buy OBL/ Taliban and their Pak Army leaders. You should be debating the terror/jihadi policies that have turned Pakistan into the cesspool that it has become.
            Perhaps you should read my posts elsewhere on the 'terror wreaked by the Taliban/AQ' - your ignorance of the discussions I partake in elsewhere does not mean I have not (or don't) engage in those discussions.
            You guys can't even play decent cricket anymore, because no nation wants to come and play in your country. But that would be expecting too much, you too dont live in Pakistan!
            And of course the typical descent into an irrelevant and irrational rant against Pakistan by a particular breed of Pakistan hating Indian (the Bharat-Rakshak crowd) ....
            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
              With that line of argument, you are actually convincing the bulk of us here that you understand squat about war and its declaration and the amount of brainstorming that goes behind it, calling it rather, Irrational Act. Are you arguing that the Battle Commanders lack a proper understanding of the consequences of war and their objectives?
              Your inability to grasp the nuances of the written English language and subsequent distortion/misinterpretation of my comments is your problem - I did not generalize and state that "Battle Commanders lack a proper understanding of the consequences of war and their objectives' - I stated that a 'waging war without a proper understanding of the consequences of war and the objectives of war is an irrational act'. Do you understand the difference now?

              And yes, I am arguing that the US 'lacked a proper understanding of the consequences of the Afghanistan war and the objectives of that war', and in choosing to ignore the offer of dialog/negotiations by the Taliban before deciding on war, the US acted irrationally.
              Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 18 Jun 13,, 14:24.
              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                Your inability to grasp the nuances of the written English language and subsequent distortion/misinterpretation of my comments is your problem - I did not generalize and state that "Battle Commanders lack a proper understanding of the consequences of war and their objectives' - I stated that a 'waging war without a proper understanding of the consequences of war and the objectives of war is an irrational act'. Do you understand the difference now?
                Bull Crap! Don't try to lampoon me with your ringa-ringa-roses type of sh!t of an argument.
                You explicitly quoted this -
                Originally Posted by Agnostic Muslim
                Without a proper understanding of the consequences of war, the objectives, and exhausting non-military options to achieve said objectives it is those who 'demand war' that are living in la-la land and such a declaration of war is nothing but an irrational response.
                Who the fcuk do you think are instrumental behind a war declaration? Bugger off.
                And yes, I am arguing that the US 'lacked a proper understanding of the consequences of the Afghanistan war and the objectives of that war', and in choosing to ignore the offer of dialog/negotiations by the Taliban before deciding on war, the US acted irrationally.
                The US said a BIG Fcuk you. Get this straight.

                Don't trust me? Try persuading one of your PA Generals to gulp a couple and then talk.
                sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                  You explicitly quoted this -
                  I initially stated this:

                  "Without a proper understanding of the consequences of war, the objectives, and exhausting non-military options to achieve said objectives it is those who 'demand war' that are living in la-la land and such a declaration of war is nothing but an irrational response."


                  And I stated this in post# 126 in response to your distortion ( or inability to comprehend simple English) of my comments:

                  "Waging war without a proper understanding of the consequences of war and the objectives of war is an irrational act'.

                  Where is the disconnect between my two statements?
                  The US said a BIG Fcuk you. Get this straight.

                  Don't trust me? Try persuading one of your PA Generals to gulp a couple and then talk.
                  Ranting and raving does not change the fact that you are yet to respond to my point (without completely butchering my comments out of an inability to understand simple English).
                  Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                  https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                  Comment


                  • You know AM, you remind me of the average conspiracy theorist: An utter inability to recognize certain immutable truths in this world.

                    And when you're confronted with said truths, you simply ignore it (probably with a blank look on your face) and then re-state your position ad infinitum.

                    Just out of curiosity...Who perpetuated 9/11? Was it OBL and his group or the US government?

                    Speaking of OBL, was he really killed in Abbottabad raid?
                    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                      You know AM, you remind me of the average conspiracy theorist: An utter inability to recognize certain immutable truths in this world.

                      And when you're confronted with said truths, you simply ignore it (probably with a blank look on your face) and then re-state your position ad infinitum.

                      Just out of curiosity...Who perpetuated 9/11? Was it OBL and his group or the US government?

                      Speaking of OBL, was he really killed in Abbottabad raid?
                      I have absolutely no clue how your post here has any relevance to the arguments being made, and all I see is you attributing a slew of outlandish claims to me that I have not even come close to making, and to illustrate this, try answering the following questions concerning the claims you have made about my posts:

                      1. What conspiracy theory have I promoted in this thread?

                      2. Why should your opinion on a particular issue under discussion be unconditionally accepted as 'the immutable truth'? What is the point of a discussion board if your definition of discussion is 'my opinion is the immutable truth'?

                      3. Where did I question the official US narrative about 9/11?
                      Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                      https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                        I have absolutely no clue how your post here has any relevance to the arguments being made, and all I see is you attributing a slew of outlandish claims to me that I have not even come close to making, and to illustrate this, try answering the following questions concerning the claims you have made about my posts:

                        1. What conspiracy theory have I promoted in this thread?

                        2. Why should your opinion on a particular issue under discussion be unconditionally accepted as 'the immutable truth'? What is the point of a discussion board if your definition of discussion is 'my opinion is the immutable truth'?

                        3. Where did I question the official US narrative about 9/11?
                        1. You remind me of the average conspiracy theorist. Or can't you

                        2. The Taliban. Cooperating with the West to destroy AQ. Would care to rate the possibility of that happening immediately after 9/11? You seem to think it's a possibility. The rest of us on Planet Earth know that's a joke you tell while high on shit tons of pot.

                        3. Who cares? Your assertion that the Taliban might even remotely consider cooperating with the West to destroy AQ puts you solidly in the same group of idiots.
                        “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                          1. You remind me of the average conspiracy theorist. Or can't you

                          2. The Taliban. Cooperating with the West to destroy AQ. Would care to rate the possibility of that happening immediately after 9/11? You seem to think it's a possibility. The rest of us on Planet Earth know that's a joke you tell while high on shit tons of pot.

                          3. Who cares? Your assertion that the Taliban might even remotely consider cooperating with the West to destroy AQ puts you solidly in the same group of idiots.
                          The US is to open direct peace talks with the Taliban, senior White House officials have announced.

                          The first meeting is due to take place in the coming days in Doha, Qatar, where the Taliban have just opened their first official overseas office.
                          BBC News - US and Taliban to open direct peace talks in Qatar

                          Again, this could have been done in 2001 and potentially avoided massive human and economic casualties. If you want to argue that I am 'high on pot' then so is the US Government and many of her military officials given the positions being advocated.
                          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                            BBC News - US and Taliban to open direct peace talks in Qatar

                            Again, this could have been done in 2001 and potentially avoided massive human and economic casualties. If you want to argue that I am 'high on pot' then so is the US Government and many of her military officials given the positions being advocated.
                            WOW...you're comparing 2001 with 2013? Let's see...what's changed. Oh yeah, the Taliban have been thrown out of power and have been getting the snot kicked out of them for the last 12 years, and oh yeah, OBL, the prime (albeit not only) reason the U.S. invaded in the first place, is deader than pig shit.

                            Yes! You are definitely high on pot. Or something else.

                            I have decided that you are an incredible source of good humor and laughs. So, please keep it up, every board needs a pathetic joke to laugh at. :pop:
                            “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                              WOW...you're comparing 2001 with 2013? Let's see...what's changed. Oh yeah, the Taliban have been thrown out of power and have been getting the snot kicked out of them for the last 12 years, and oh yeah, OBL, the prime (albeit not only) reason the U.S. invaded in the first place, is deader than pig shit.

                              Yes! You are definitely high on pot. Or something else.

                              I have decided that you are an incredible source of good humor and laughs. So, please keep it up, every board needs a pathetic joke to laugh at. :pop:
                              Yes, lets compare the situation in 2001 and 2013 shall we:

                              2001:

                              The Taliban were not carrying out suicide bombings and insurgent attacks against US/NATO forces
                              The Taliban condemned the 9/11 attacks and offered to negotiate an extradition of AQ/OBL to a neutral country
                              The US refuses to negotiate with the Taliban and decides to declare war and occupy the country

                              2013:

                              The Taliban have been carrying out suicide/insurgent attacks against US/NATO forces for over a decade
                              The Taliban have direct/indirect links with AQ and other similar organizations by virtue of all these organizations fighting the US in Afghanistan
                              Tens of thousands have died and hundreds of billions spent in waging war in Afghanistan
                              The US decides to welcome negotiations and has been actively working to get the Taliban to the negotiating table without preconditions such as the complete withdrawal of US forces from Afghanistan

                              Given the above, my argument that the US should have negotiated in 2001 seems far more reasonable than the decision to negotiate in 2013 ...
                              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                              Comment


                              • AM,

                                From the BBC link you posted:
                                However, the talks are on condition that the Taliban renounce violence, break ties with al-Qaeda and respect the Afghan constitution - including the rights of women and minorities.
                                Since OBL is not around anymore (or is he? ) what has changed in US demands?
                                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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