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  • #31
    Originally posted by Red Seven View Post
    I don't see how someone with that severe an affliction could've lived a life of dodging JDAMs and terminal guidance operations in Tora Bora and survived 9 years as the most wanted fugitive on the planet. I think his disease is greatly exaggerated; either that or he's had access to some pretty advanced medical treatment...not outside the realm of possibilities given all his years in the region. He's had plenty of time, allies and resources at his disposal, including, for a while, a powerful faction within the ISI. Who knows what can be accomplished inside a cave--assuming he's living in one. Still, I'd give more credence to the former supposition rather than the latter.
    Well, I don't see how he could manage it either. Assuming he's really an ESRD patient, I guarandamntee you that he needs special supplies, the most important of which is electricity. Does he have an extension cord leading to his putative cave?

    Prof

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    • #32
      Originally posted by S-2 View Post
      "This guy wasn't some marginal figure, unfortunately too many people seem not to know he ever existed."

      Seems you've defined marginal. There's no question, I suppose, of his good work. Influential though? 40 million gives you a constituency in Indonesia. Not insignificant but not globally-mobilizing either.
      30-40 million is bigger than most countries, and that is people who took the effort to actually join his organization. Respect for his views was even more widespread - the foundation I have linked to below has the support of another Indonesian organization that is almost as large as NU. He also managed to become President of a nation of 205 million people, about 180 million of whom were muslim. the largest Muslim nation in the world. .

      My point was that this wasn't some western-born cleric with a handful of followers who no one but westerners is listening to or a liberal sheik in some tiny emirate, this was a guy with a huge personal following waho was also in charge of the largest Muslim nation in the world. It is a reminder to be wary of generalizations.

      Unfortunately drama gets more attention than reason & anger makes better image & copy than restraint. The work that Wahid & his allies are doing is the sort of slow & unsexy stuff that Islamists have been doing for years - working in schools, producing & disseminating religious opinions, broadcasting these ideas to other muslims etc. His foundation works all over the world at both governmental & grassroots levels

      The program below directly addresses a point made in the orignal post:

      In 2007, LibForAll laid the foundations for a 5-year project to produce a comprehensive commentary on the Qur’an using modern methodologies of scholarship, which will construct a case for the rejection of Qur’anic literalism and the definitive discarding of extremist teachings. Led by some of the world’s top Qur’anic scholars, this project will establish schools of modern Qur’anic interpretation in the South East Asian, South Asian and Arab regions – helping Muslims to build a bridge between their own traditions and the modern world of freedom, equality, human rights, democracy and globalization. The project is headed by renowned Egyptian reformer Dr. Nasr Hamid Abu-Zayd.
      http://www.libforall.org/media/newsl...anuary2008.pdf

      This stuff may not get the headlines, but it is happening & it does have support.

      1980s has answered the rest better than I could.
      sigpic

      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
        Why praise the post in the first place? That praise didn't seem to contain much by way of qualification, even from those who apparently knew it to be factually incorrect.
        I thought it was a good post and still do because it speaks to a basic truth, that OBL and others like him, whether Islamic, Christian or otherwise, could not easily exploit religion to pursue their political goals unless ambiguities existed within the teachings of those religions.

        How long has it been since 9/11? Nearly a decade. And yet no consensus has developed among Muslim clerics, thinkers and so forth, condemning such attacks and the scores of suicide bombing since. Prominent clerics and thinkers are divided. How can that be? How can men whose whole life has been devoted to study of the Koran be so far apart on the question of whether Jihad refers to an inner or an outer struggle? Until that happens political movements will be able to exploit these differences. That is what the post was about. That's a good topic.


        And my point was that the fact that the poster made a pretty absolute statement about the muslim world an was met with agreement suggests that we may not know enough about enough muslim communities to make such sweeping statements.
        I agree that the poster was inaccurate in claiming nothing was being done within Islam to deal with its ambiguities. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that nothing has been resolved to the present time. You are right that we need to know more about so-called Muslim communities to see what is being done. However, the proof of the result thus far is in the pudding; young, sincere Muslims continue to blow themselves and other Muslims up in the name of Islam.
        To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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        • #34
          Glad to have played the devils advocate. Some really insightful things have been said here.

          However, I have not yet found what I had hoped would come out of it.

          THINGS ARE have been discussed

          ...I guess we all agree that generalization or not, matters within the Ummah (oops here I go again) are a cause for massive concern, globalization of everything, AF-Pak and all... There is clearly a gap between the desired state and the current one, even if the "gap" (euphemism ) exists just among the fringe (but affects us all, even if just psychologically).

          But what about HOW IT OUGHT TO BE and HOW TO GET THERE? Or do we just wait for "it" (vague reference with the intention of avoiding potential minefields) to dissipate, life Red-7 says it will?
          Last edited by HillTribe; 03 Jan 10,, 20:07.
          Totalitarianism-Feudalism in new garbs

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          • #35
            HillWarrior Reply

            How to get there?

            I know where you're wishing to go and there's two ways. Slow, purposeful change fueled by massive resources in education, health, and opportunity while accepting the friction of life. Two steps forward, one back.

            The other?

            War that provokes a search within the defeated to ascribe the errors of their ways such to bring them to the state of despair in which they find themselves.

            Faster and more resolute. See Germany and Japan.

            Sanctuary in Pakistan is an act of war and needs to be treated openly by all affected as such. We need as nations to quit coddling bad behavior and call a spade a spade when it's seen.

            That is the first step. In so doing, we force Pakistanis to truly call to conscience the facts as they are to others.

            Just a thought...
            "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
            "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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