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  • Originally posted by 1980s View Post
    \

    Im done with you.
    Glad to hear that, since the majority of this post of yours was some sort of pseudo-psycho treatise about 'how Agnostic Muslim feels'. Do let me know if you actually want to have a debate about Balochistan without tossing slurs, abuse and insults all over the place.
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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    • Originally posted by 1980s View Post
      In anycase, 60-something year old Pakistan which is a purely post-WWII artificial colonial construct of the British with arbitrary British drawn borders and in the words of Sanaullah Baloch an "outdated colonial structure" is hardly sacrosanct or to be taken seriously since practically nobody recognizes its so-called 'territorial integrity'.
      Most Pakistanis would agree with Sanaullah Baloch that the current 'government structure is an outdated colonial one'. However, the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis would also argue that the 'government structure needs to be reformed' within the existing Republic of Pakistan.
      It has border and territorial disputes with India and Afghanistan
      And India has border and territorial disputes with Pakistan, China, Bangladesh ... Iran has territorial disputes with the UAE, Qatar ... so what's your point?
      , a border with Iran that the Iranians have sealed off with concrete walls, barbed wire fences and ditches to keep the Pakistanis out,
      Whatever floats their boat ...

      a border that the Pashtuns on your side dont even recognize and a relationship that is widely rejected among the Baloch.
      If your point about the 'Pakistani Pashtun not recognizing the Afghan-Pakistan border' was correct, it would be more of an issue for Afghanistan, given that the overwhelming majority of the Pakistani Pashtun have no interest in either becoming independent or joining Afghanistan, which leaves only one other option related to 'not recognizing the Afghan-Pakistan border', that they would like to see the Afghan Pashtun regions become a part of Pakistan. And I believe I have already given you polling data that shows an overwhelming majority of the residents of Balochistan rejecting independence, so pardon me for not sharing in your pessimism about Pakistan here.
      - Some constitution worth negotiating within that your ruling cliques dont even respect themselves and cant even enforce anyway!
      Which is part of 'reforming the outdated colonial government structure' - Pakistan just had her first 'fair and transparent' transition from one democratically elected government to another, so I am willing to let the democratic process play out to see what sorts of reforms can be brought about. We have already seen some significant constitutional reforms (during the PPP government) where provincial autonomy was increased significantly as was the share of the provinces (at the expense of the Federal government) in the distribution of financial resources.
      What a joke.. Your borders are fake, not of your own making and are named after British imperialists and you're proud of this?
      Actually most of those borders were negotiated between the British and the leadership of (not yet formed) India and Pakistan. While it is true that Pakistan's borders are not exactly what her founders wanted, they are nonetheless primarily a result of negotiations that were accepted by all parties involved, including the founders of Pakistan.

      and you're a basket case for foreign aid.
      And most Pakistanis want the government to reject foreign aid and reform the 'outdated colonial structure' to generate revenues and improve governance, and we are starting to see steps being taken in that direction.
      Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 04 Oct 13,, 12:50.
      Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
      https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

      Comment


      • AM,

        About how people feel...

        I am sure you have better insight since you are in the area, but do you have data that back that?
        Guts feeling can be wrong.
        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

        Comment


        • This is the original and true map of Real balochistan.
          The Red Marked.



          Attached Files

          Comment


          • a border that the Pashtuns on your side dont even recognize and a relationship that is widely rejected among the Baloch.
            Well it seems like the ground realities are unknown to you

            No Pakistani pashtun want a merger with Afghan pashtuns or Afghanistan(atleast until they have persian culture and most important tajik and uzbek in afghanistan)

            I am not sure whether you know about the Great betrayal or not But we the Pakistani pashtuns were sold off by the afghan pashtuns just to save themselves from the british invasions under durrand line agreement to British india,A country which we had no cultural or anywhere else similarity with.But we manage to live.And exactly after almost a century the same afghan pashtun came to us as refugees in millions and we accepted them as our brothers.
            I am not sure whether you have ever been to Pakistan or not.or to quetta or KPK.The local pashtuns be it any ocassion we help the afghan refugees.

            The durrand line might be recoginized or not.It doesnt matter,Yes within ANP they had thought about claiming the ancient pashtunistan region which include parts of today afghanistan into KPK by either force or anyhow possible since majority of the world pashtuns are in pakistan now.and they have the right to claim there ancient land anytime they want.Google about ancient pashtunistan region

            I hope you no more will live with the media delusion.Since not me but majority of pakistani pashtuns thinks similar as do i think

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
              AM,

              About how people feel...

              I am sure you have better insight since you are in the area, but do you have data that back that?
              Guts feeling can be wrong.
              Sure - I was not basing my comments on 'gut feelings', but on the plethora of surveys (by Pakistani and Western polling organizations) done on Pakistani attitudes towards various issues over the years. For example:

              When asked whether they think of themselves primarily as Pakistani or as a member of their ethnic group, roughly nine-in-ten (89%) say they see themselves first as Pakistani.

              Majorities among all four major ethnic groups analyzed say they think of themselves first as Pakistani. Close to all Punjabis (96%) – the nation’s largest group – say they see themselves first as Pakistanis, as do 92% each of those who identify themselves as Pashtuns or Muhajirs.

              Sindhis are somewhat more likely than other ethnic groups to identify with their ethnicity. Just over half of Sindhi people (55%) say they see themselves as Pakistani first, while close to three-in-ten (28%) say they first identify as Sindhi; another 16% volunteer that they see themselves as both equally.

              In terms of Pakistan’s regions, large majorities in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) (98%) and Punjab (96%) say they see themselves as Pakistanis first, rather than identify themselves first by their ethnic background. Ethnic identification is slightly more common in Baluchistan and Sindh. In Baluchistan, the southwestern territory with rugged terrain and sparse population, 32% say they identify themselves first by their ethnicity and 58% say they identify themselves first as Pakistanis. In Sindh, with its concentration of Sindhi people, 72% say they think of themselves first as Pakistani rather than by their ethnic background; 13% think of themselves first by their ethnic identification; and 10% volunteer that they think of themselves as both equally.
              Chapter 2. Religion, Law, and Society | Pew Global Attitudes Project

              There is a reason why I have so strongly contested the views put forward by 1980's and others.

              A similar survey on national identity done in 2011 provided similar statistics:

              http://www.pewglobal.org/question-se...@36.5-&stdIDs=
              Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 04 Oct 13,, 14:43.
              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

              Comment


              • Originally posted by farhan_9909 View Post
                There are now Strong chances of the formation of Southern Pakhtunkhwa within Balochistan
                I don't think that idea is going to move forward until the situation in Balochistan calms down. While I support the idea of creating more provinces in Pakistan (especially Punjab), the problem with creating more units out of Balochistan (at the present time) is that it will merely fuel the rage and narrative of anti-Pakistan elements in Balochistan.

                In my opinion the best way to move forward on the idea of creating more administrative units is to start off with Punjab. Once that process is completed successfully, public opinion across Pakistan will become a lot more amenable to the same process being repeated in other provinces.
                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                  And India has border and territorial disputes with Pakistan, China, Bangladesh ...
                  There is no longer any territorial dispute with Bangladesh. It was resolved 2 years back.

                  Iran has territorial disputes with the UAE, Qatar ... so what's your point?
                  I think the point is that you have disputes with almost all of your neighbours. Pakistan can hardly lay claim in having any territorial integrity as you cannot even enforce your own borders, resulting in your neighbours having to take drastic measures to keep unwanted elements out. If Pakistan's sovereignty and borders are truly so firm, why can it not enforce it's own borders?
                  Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                  -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                    I don't think that idea is going to move forward until the situation in Balochistan calms down. While I support the idea of creating more provinces in Pakistan (especially Punjab), the problem with creating more units out of Balochistan (at the present time) is that it will merely fuel the rage and narrative of anti-Pakistan elements in Balochistan.

                    In my opinion the best way to move forward on the idea of creating more administrative units is to start off with Punjab. Once that process is completed successfully, public opinion across Pakistan will become a lot more amenable to the same process being repeated in other provinces.
                    even though your right but what i read is that even the baloch nationalist leaders now support a new province to be created for the pashtuns in balochistan where they are in majority.Such as the southern block of Balochistan(Quetta,Zhob etc)

                    Which is like 30-35% of Balochistan by land and almost 50% by population or may be slightly even more

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                      I don't think that idea is going to move forward until the situation in Balochistan calms down. While I support the idea of creating more provinces in Pakistan (especially Punjab), the problem with creating more units out of Balochistan (at the present time) is that it will merely fuel the rage and narrative of anti-Pakistan elements in Balochistan.

                      In my opinion the best way to move forward on the idea of creating more administrative units is to start off with Punjab. Once that process is completed successfully, public opinion across Pakistan will become a lot more amenable to the same process being repeated in other provinces.
                      even though your right but what i read is that even the baloch nationalist leaders now support a new province to be created for the pashtuns in balochistan where they are in majority.Such as the southern block of Balochistan(Quetta,Zhob etc)

                      Which is like 30-35% of Balochistan by land and almost 50% by population or may be slightly even more

                      Comment


                      • If Pakistan's sovereignty and borders are truly so firm, why can it not enforce it's own borders?
                        So US sovereignty is not truly so firm?
                        No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                        To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                          So US sovereignty is not truly so firm?
                          With a 1000km separation barrier, backed with infrared sensors, watchtowers and a co-operative US-Mexican crackdown against drugs and weapons smugglers, what makes you think US border enforcement is as lax as Pakistan's?

                          And mind you, I say "lax", as that is Pakistan's own reasoning. Personally, I'm fully convinced that Pakistan is complicit in the cross-border export of militants.
                          Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                          -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                            I think the point is that you have disputes with almost all of your neighbours.
                            As do many other countries in the region, hence my question as to what the point behind raising that particular argument was.
                            Pakistan can hardly lay claim in having any territorial integrity as you cannot even enforce your own borders, resulting in your neighbours having to take drastic measures to keep unwanted elements out. If Pakistan's sovereignty and borders are truly so firm, why can it not enforce it's own borders?
                            That 'lack of proper enforcement' is part of the problem of 'reforming outdated colonial government structures' - it is a work in progress. As Doktor pointed out, even countries that pour massive investments into border security (like the US) struggle to enforce borders. India herself is an example of that (in terms of the inability to properly enforce her borders with Bangladesh for example).

                            But the overall crux of 1980s argument, that the Baloch and Pakhtun (and perhaps even most Pakistanis) 'lack a Pakistani national identity', was thoroughly debunked by the Pew polls from 2009 and 2011 (posted earlier). I mean really, 98% of the population of NWFP considers themselves 'Pakistani first' - even with a large margin of error in the poll that is a complete refutation of the oft repeated canard of 'Pashtunistan'.
                            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by farhan_9909 View Post
                              This is the original and true map of Real balochistan.
                              The Red Marked.
                              Those are British imposed borders. They reflect British colonial and administrative policy towards 'the natives'. They arent original or 'true' in any other sense.

                              Originally posted by farhan_9909 View Post
                              No Pakistani pashtun want a merger with Afghan pashtuns or Afghanistan(atleast until they have persian culture and most important tajik and uzbek in afghanistan)
                              Did you mean dont have 'Persian culture'? Either way, Pashtuns dont have Persian culture. Iranians and Pashtuns have little to nothing in common socially and culturally. Tajiks in Afghanistan and Pashtuns OTHO would have things in common because they have been living under the same polity now for a couple of centuries.

                              Google about ancient pashtunistan region.
                              There isnt one. Pashtuns have an obscure origin, and are historically a confederation of nomadic to semi-nomadic tribes and clans living independently but largely under the yoke of foreign suzerains, particularly Persian and Turk. They dont all have a common origin, historically did not have a clearly defined homeland and did not have a sense of political unity and a state of their own until the 18th century CE.

                              Anyway, this is wholly irrelvant to the topic.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 1980s View Post
                                Those are British imposed borders. They reflect British colonial and administrative policy towards 'the natives'. They arent original or 'true' in any other sense.
                                British imposed border is the present Border.

                                Ancient Balochistan Map
                                (Note:Balochistan of Pakistan is limited to the southern border of Kalat)
                                *From Mastung Upto zhob never was part of ancient balochistan.
                                *And even the ancient Balochistan was occupied by Bruhie people and Bruhie sources claim that they had a independent state as Barrohistan within the ancient balochistan Map
                                *The southern Balochistan even today is more suitable for living as the rest of Balochistan is almost dry and extremely hot with no infra,While the southern balochistan recieve alot of snow and the weather is average in summer.So for people the southern balochistan soon to be declared Southern pakhtunkhwa is of much more importance than the rest of Balochistan
                                *Than the gwadar again never was part of Balochistan but rather a independent state close to les bela





                                Did you mean dont have 'Persian culture'? Either way, Pashtuns dont have Persian culture. Iranians and Pashtuns have little to nothing in common socially and culturally. Tajiks in Afghanistan and Pashtuns OTHO would have things in common because they have been living under the same polity now for a couple of centuries.



                                There isnt one. Pashtuns have an obscure origin, and are historically a confederation of nomadic to semi-nomadic tribes and clans living independently but largely under the yoke of foreign suzerains, particularly Persian and Turk. They dont all have a common origin, historically did not have a clearly defined homeland and did not have a sense of political unity and a state of their own until the 18th century CE.

                                Anyway, this is wholly irrelvant to the topic.
                                Irrelvant Agreed.Though you should read about the true history of pashtuns.OR atleast onwards Qaid abdur rashid
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by farhan_9909; 07 Oct 13,, 07:29.

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