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  • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
    AG:

    Simply dismissing an argument because the author appears to support a 'terrorist" is
    ad hominem reasoning. That may fly in the sidewalk cafes, but here we should aim for a higher standard and concern ourselves with the arguments the writer makes, not his associations.
    And I assume the same applies in the case of an author's views being dismissed because he is vying for political office?
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 1980s View Post
      I consider Mullah Omar to be a Pakistani asset, and i consider Pakistan to be a reckless 3rd world sponsor of terrorism, if thats what you're asking me.
      No, that is not what I am asking you - I am asking you if you assign credibility to the arguments of those who support and praise terrorist leaders like OBL or Zawahiri?
      Now, here's the contacts for the Daily Times, Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan - let us know their reply to your queries regarding Talpur's credibility or lack thereof.
      Again, I have no interest in emailing a self-declared terrorist supporter, regardless of which media platform he gets published in.
      Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
      https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
        No, that is not what I am asking you - I am asking you if you assign credibility to the arguments of those who support and praise terrorist leaders like OBL or Zawahiri?
        I cant dignify your idiocy with a response so i appeal to the intelligence of anyone else reading this discussion to give their opinion on whether there is any comparison between that piece written by Mohammad Ali Talpur for the Daily Times and stuff that gets written about praising Al-Qaeda (i personally know of no established newspapers that do so).

        Comment


        • Since JAD_333 wanted me to address the arguments of the author, beyond the author's support for terrorism and terrorists, here it goes:

          Originally posted by 1980s View Post
          COMMENT : Awaran — Mir Mohammad Ali Talpur

          The government and its ministers along with the army are quick to blame the Baloch for putting up hurdles in relief work and the social media and the mainstream media join the chorus

          Awaran, a place that already was suffering from shocks of long-drawn army and Frontier Corps operations in their effort to contain the brave and unflinching resistance that Dr Allah Nazar and the people there are putting up against their attempts to make people meekly submit to exploitation, was hit by a 7.8 magnitude earthquake on September 24.
          OK, so that is just the despicable part of the article where the author unabashedly voices his support for a terrorist leader and terrorism.

          The UN humanitarian envoy, Dr Abdullah Al-Matouq, said the UN was ready to help with relief work in Balochistan’s earthquake-affected areas but the Pakistani authorities have refused.
          Correct - the Pakistani military has controlled access to parts of the region controlled by terrorists in much the same way it has controlled access to parts of FATA where the threat of terrorist attacks is high.

          This isn’t the first time that the disaster-stricken Baloch have been left at the mercy of the vagaries of nature and elements on a flimsy security concerns excuse for which the establishment itself is to blame. When Balochistan was battered by Cyclone Yemyin in June 2007 causing flooding affecting 1.5 million people, the international relief organisations were suddenly stopped on the security concerns excuse. Even the relief operations of the Baloch Students Organisation (BSO) and other nationalist organisations were stopped and camps disbanded. The same is true today; early Thursday morning some Baloch students of Dera Ghazi Khan (DGK) put up a camp at the Traffic Chowk near the DGK Press Club to collect supplies for the Awaran quake victims but were soon rudely stopped by intelligence agencies personnel. Independent news reports confirm that the relief supplies being sent by individuals and NGOs are stopped by the FC, which says only it will distribute them. The National Disaster Management Agency (NDMA) and Provincial Disaster Management Agency handouts claiming relief are bogus as reports prove no supplies had reached either Gajjar or Malaar till Friday.
          This is where the author digresses from expressing facts to expressing opinion. Whether the GoP's analysis of 'security concerns in Balochistan' is 'flimsy' or not is a matter of opinion.

          Relief work is the responsibility of the civilian authorities, the Red Crescent, the UN and other humanitarian organisations but Interior Minister Chaudhry Nisar says 1,000 troops of the Pakistan army were on the ground and other units were being dispatched, apart from the thousands of FC men already there. Sanaullah Baloch tweeted that NDMA officials say they cannot give information without clearance from the ISPR.
          In Pakistan relief work in major disasters has always been led by the Pakistani military, because the organization can mobilize aircraft, choppers and personnel in a much shorter amount of time than the relatively inefficient and corrupt civilian bureaucracy. To argue that the role of the Pakistani Military in relief operations in Balochistan constitutes some sort of 'conspiracy' is ludicrous given precedent.
          Prior to this quake, the people of Awaran have been subjected to punitive operations by the army and FC because the intrepid Dr Allah Nazar has struggled ceaselessly and effectively, after his release in June 2006 in a near-death condition after brutal torture following his arrest in March 2005. He was arrested in 2002 as well after he formed the Baloch Students Organisation (Azad) but released after students’ hunger strikes. He today is the singularly most effective and legendary resistance leader on the ground, leading his Baloch Liberation Front (BLF) and well complemented by the indomitable Balochistan Liberation Army (BLA) and Baloch Republican Army (BRA). The people in Awaran view the army and FC as the enemy.
          This is just more support for terrorists and terrorism. How would people on this forum react to an author referring to 'Dr. Zawahiri has struggled ceaselessly and effectively, after being hounded by the US, in leading Al Qaeda resistance to American anti-Islam imperialism'?

          Lt-General (retd) Abdul Qadir Baloch said Jam Kamal Khan, NDMA Chairman Major General Muhammad Saeed Aleem and their helicopters flying over Mashkay area were fired at by the Sarmachars (insurgents) on Thursday. Later talking to reporters he said, “The bullets passed very close to the helicopters. However, we escaped the attempt on our lives.” He said the militant leader Allah Nazar should realise that the army and Frontier Corps troops had gone to the area to help those devastated by the earthquake. “I would like to ask militant leader Allah Nazar and his men to join the rescue and relief operation in order to ease the pain of people whose loved ones have died or been injured.” The fact is that the establishment wants to punish the people using instances of justified response by the Sarmachars against aggression by denying them aid from international organisations. Dr Allah Nazar assuring full safety for civil organisations and personnel involved in aid activities and added helicopters were engaged because of their hostile activities and it was a legitimate response. A military official in Awaran also confirmed that the rebels are only attacking security forces and not civilians.
          The author is twisting himself in knots here - on one hand he is justifying the attacks on relief activities that are preventing aid from reaching those affected, and on the other lamenting the refusal of the GoP to allow private aid organizations to operate in the region. The allegation that the relief helicopters were engaged in 'hostile activities' has no substantiation and requires the author to provide credible evidence establishing his claim.

          The government and its ministers along with the army are quick to blame the Baloch for putting up hurdles in relief work and the social media and the mainstream media join the chorus accusing the Baloch Sarmachars of being inconsiderate and callous by obstructing help.
          If the author wants to argue that the government, military, social media and mainstream media are all wrong, then he needs to provide more evidence supporting his allegations.

          Sadly even the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) sometimes issues statements that seem to be ISPR handouts. Their patriotism blinds them to the plight of the Baloch and the resentment evoked by the unbridled brutality that they suffer at the hands of the security forces. They have no idea what image the army and the FC has there for the people who have been terrorised and traumatised by the operations conducted there to ensure that the BLF fish (guerrillas) are deprived of the sea (the people) that they have swum in since 2006. The people there and the army are two warring parties; there are six-decade plus irresolvable animosities and antagonisms nurtured by brutalities and broken promises combined with devastating economic exploitation. Pray, tell me, how would the residents of Stalingrad have reacted had the 6th Army and the 4th Panzer Army of the Wehrmacht come bearing relief supplies to ease the besieged people’s troubles? Many affected people are refusing to take army relief supplies because their near and dear ones have either gone missing or been killed.
          Again, nothing more than just opinion and allegations that 'everyone is out to get them', them being the terrorists.

          My respected friend Shaheed Sheymureed Baloch (Raza Jahangir), Secretary General Baloch Students Organisation (BSO) Azad, killed by the FC on August 14, was from Awaran.
          If this 'friend' was as 'respected' as the terrorist leader Allah Nazar, then he deserved to be killed.

          If the readers think I am exaggerating, this news report may help disabuse them of the illusion that the army can do no wrong. Recently, the Islamabad police booked 30 security personnel of the Strategic Planning Division (SPD), including an army officer, on charges of murder, attempted murder and terrorism. The villagers of Nilor, protesting the beating up of a villager, were fired upon, resulting in the death of one and injury to 10 villagers. In July the Army netball players had beaten up the Balochistan team after losing the game.
          Credible references to these events? I am not sure whether the author is serious when he raises an incident around a fight over a sporting event.

          This earthquake and the emerging situation have forced the establishment to reluctantly admit to the scale and intensity of the resistance that they are facing. The army is trying to gain a foothold in the area in the guise of relief work and is punishing the people there for their unstinted support for the Sarmachars by disallowing international aid. This, however, will only strengthen their resolve. The help by other Baloch and NGOs will filter through and the people in the quake-affected area will survive, but the already incurable wounds and scars will deepen and they will never forgive the establishment for the miseries they are going through.
          Opinion, opinion and more opinion - the author provides no credible sources to substantiate his arguments, but he does make his lack of objectivity and bias clear through his support for a terrorist leader and terrorism.

          So 1980's, what 'facts' did the author provide that so enamored you to this man who is an outright supporter of a terrorist leader?
          The writer has an association with the Baloch rights movement going back to the early 1970s. He tweets at mmatalpur and can be contacted at mmatalpur@gmail.com
          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 1980s View Post
            I cant dignify your idiocy with a response so i appeal to the intelligence of anyone else reading this discussion to give their opinion on whether there is any comparison between that piece written by Mohammad Ali Talpur for the Daily Times and stuff that gets written about praising Al-Qaeda (i personally know of no established newspapers that do so).
            You are being selective in perusing Pakistani papers then - did you miss the repulsive pieces written by Imran Khan and Maulana Fazlul Rehman in support of negotiations with the TTP despite the wave of massacres they have carried out since the APC announced a desire to negotiate with them?

            Check out the vernacular press in Pakistan and you will find even more pieces talking about our 'estranged Taliban brothers who have taken up arms only because of the Army deployment at the behest of the US'.

            BTW, the Daily Times has always been a 'extreme left wing' paper. As is the case with the author of the article you are quoting, some of the past editors of the paper (like Najam Sethi) were also members of the 'Baloch resistance movement' in the seventies.
            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
              AG:

              Simply dismissing an argument because the author appears to support a 'terrorist" is
              ad hominem reasoning. That may fly in the sidewalk cafes, but here we should aim for a higher standard and concern ourselves with the arguments the writer makes, not his associations.
              Evidently this person has zero interest in debate, and zero debating ability. He's here for spin, to paint a faux picture of Pakistan as a harmonious and progressive country that is a victim of international conspiracies. Laughable. According to him, there is no Baloch rebellion against Pakistan, despite much evidence to the contrary.

              Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim
              BTW, the Daily Times has always been a 'extreme left wing' paper. As is the case with the author of the article you are quoting, some of the past editors of the paper (like Najam Sethi) were also members of the 'Baloch resistance movement' in the seventies.
              Ok, well here's what 'the Nation' says in an editorial today:

              Baloch resistance to military aid
              October 03, 2013


              A historical rift resurfaces from the rubble in Balochistan where an earthquake killed 400 people and affected at least 300,000 last Tuesday. As soon as the Pakistani government and armed forces reached the jolted area, they were met with resistance and even hostility from local liberation groups and ordinary village dwellers. In several cases, helicopters carrying relief equipment for earthquake victims were shot at by what the army describes “anti-state” militants. Unarmed rural civilians of Teertaj themselves told reporters on the ground that they want nothing from the army even if it includes aid for the wounded and displaced. This is only a brief glimpse into Balochistan’s resentment against the state for years of neglect.

              Baloch representatives have stated reasonable and understandable demands before the government of Pakistan on many occasions, but their exigencies remain unnoticed. Operations by paramilitary troops, namely the Frontier Corps, continue within Balochistan. Further disintegrating the already volatile relationship between the average citizen and the state is the neglected case of missing people in Pakistan. A considerable number of people displaced by force hail from the turbulent province of Baluchistan. Despite suffering human loss and displacement – of both natural and political kinds – the Baloch resistance to life-saving military aid in the face of a deadly earthquake only demonstrates the chasm inflicted by a festering conflict. Assurances, suo moto notices, political slogans, all have come to naught and the average Baloch is no better off than before. The new arrangement under the NFC award has also failed to be of benefit to the average Baloch, with corrupt politicians pocketing much of the cash meant for public uplift. The fact that even at a time of such tragedy and trial, help meant for young and old is being turned away is a sad reminder of the hurt and desolation the Baloch are feeling. The democratic government at the center, and at the provincial level must make their presence felt. If the civilian government fails to address the complaints of the Baloch, there is no else in Pakistan who can. The rejection of aid after the earthquake must be heeded as a dire warning.
              And a piece carried in 'the News International':

              The Balochistan blackout
              Sanaullah Baloch
              Wednesday, October 02, 2013


              Usually, in the wake of natural disasters, people-friendly governments tend to exaggerate, even manipulate, facts to grab attention and generate public and donor interest and outside help for relief and long-term recovery efforts. But for Balochistan, Islamabad has a shutdown policy – no information, no access, no outside help and no foreign aid workers.

              Despite the Islamabad-backed provincial government’s repeated appeal for international help, and despite help offers by UN agencies, international donors and other countries, the National Disaster Management Authority’s head, a powerful major general – before visiting the area – said no, repeatedly emphasising “our own available resources” for rescue and relief.

              In a nutshell, security forces control relief work without a long-term rehabilitation framework.

              An official of the provincial disaster management authority said, on condition of anonymity: “After the Kashmir earthquake Pakistan mobilised all diplomatic instruments including paying major media outlets to highlight facts to get the international community to generate funds. But in Balochistan’s case we are not allowed to release any information without prior approval of the ‘superior authorities’”.

              This attitude continues to affect all aspects of Balochistan’s affairs, including disaster management.

              There is a persistent policy to portray Balochistan as a handicapped province full of illiterate, corrupt, lazy and incompetent tribal chiefs. This narrative helps Islamabad reinforce its colonial rule by neatly managing all aspects of governance, security, natural resources, and disaster management.

              Assessing the flood damage and response mechanism in 2010, the UN agency for human settlements, UN Habitat, had clearly warned that Balochistan had fewer resources than the other provinces and its capacity to cope with calamity was very limited and that a major humanitarian response would be required to assist the people. Despite these grave realities and generous offer for humanitarian assistance, the NDMA prohibited international agencies, aid organisations and INGOs from directly assisting the flood-affected people of the province.

              Balochistan’s miseries multiplied when the ministries of foreign affairs and interior imposed the ‘project no-objection certificate' condition for humanitarian organisations. Since Punjab and other provinces were declared open-access areas, all aid agencies redirected their efforts towards Punjab. The effects of those policies can still be felt in Balochistan, with half a million affectees living in makeshift tents in appalling conditions.

              The NDMA’s biased decision vis-a-vis Balochistan led to distressing developments. In 2010, the director-general of the provincial disaster management authority informed the media and the provincial cabinet that the ‘project no-objection certificate’ condition had slowed down the pace of relief operations, resulting in countless deaths related to water-borne diseases. In addition, the 2010-flood defacement of eastern Balochistan remains unrepaired.

              Previously, in July 2007, the then prime minister Shaukat Aziz used the same blackout policy and announced that “Pakistan will not take foreign aid from any country to overcome the losses and devastation caused by Cyclone Yemyin”. The 2007 floods severely affected the Makran region and resulted in massive loss of lives and property.

              Balochistan has been in crisis since 1999, facing the wrath of both nature and the state. Between 1999-2003 a drought hit the province – economic resources vanished and disease killed thousands of people.

              In 2005, Musharraf’s ruthless military operation resulted in 200,000 displaced people, hundreds were killed and disappeared, and political assassinations of senior Baloch leaders were committed. It not only destroyed the social fabric but put an irreparable dent on the fragile economic situation.

              The current earthquake too will have a devastating impact on the socio-economic conditions and aggravate the inequality that persists among the provinces as result of Islamabad’s discriminatory policies.

              Disallowing or discouraging international aid organisations and persistently imposing an information and humanitarian blackout will further harm Islamabad’s already tarnished and anti-Baloch image.

              The policy of humanitarian blackout or shutdown is contradictory to the principles of human rights and humanitarianism. Countries with clear-headed leaders and credible institutions use such crises as opportunities to reach out to people and as a means of reconciliation. The Pakistani state, however, uses all such means to inflict more pain and misery and exploits a crisis as a tool to strengthen its grip on all affairs including the ‘humanitarian’ aspect.

              The situation in the affected areas is unspeakably bad, with hundreds of thousands living under the open skies in scorching heat. Only experienced humanitarian organisations, not military or security forces, understand the basic principles of emergency response.

              Disallowing international aid agencies, declining assistance from friendly countries and shutting down an entire province in its hour of need is not humanitarian service – it is a crime.

              The writer is a former senator from Balochistan. Email: balochbnp@gmail.com
              Both pretty much confirm Talpur, Jillani and others.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 1980s View Post
                He's here for spin, to paint a faux picture of Pakistan as a harmonious and progressive country that is a victim of international conspiracies. Laughable. According to him, there is no Baloch rebellion against Pakistan, despite much evidence to the contrary.
                That is complete and utter nonsense - a deliberate distortion of my comments here any elsewhere. I never argued that there was 'no Baloch rebellion against Pakistan' - the multiple terrorist attacks carried out by groups such as those led by Allah Nazar quite clearly establish that there is a rebellion. What I have argued against is the claim that there is 'wide spread hostility towards Pakistan', if by 'widespread' you are referring to a 'majority of ethnic Baloch'.
                Ok, well here's what 'the Nation' says in an editorial today:
                And where does the Nation corroborate the allegations of Talpur that the military is actually carrying out a military operation against terrorists instead of providing relief to earthquake victims?

                And a piece carried in 'the News International':
                And here too, where is the corroboration of Talpur's allegation of 'a military operation against terrorists being carried out under the guise of earthquake relief'?

                Both pretty much confirm Talpur, Jillani and others.
                No, the latter two pieces you posted talk about real issues, discuss real problems in governance, of local corruption and the lack of development in Balochistan that has created an environment where terrorist groups can operate with local support. Neither the Nation editorial nor Baloch's opinion piece support or justify terrorist leaders and terrorism, or try to make ludicrous claims about 'military operations being carried out under the guise of earthquake relief'.
                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                  That is complete and utter nonsense - a deliberate distortion of my comments here any elsewhere. I never argued that there was 'no Baloch rebellion against Pakistan' - the multiple terrorist attacks carried out by groups such as those led by Allah Nazar quite clearly establish that there is a rebellion. What I have argued against is the claim that there is 'wide spread hostility towards Pakistan', if by 'widespread' you are referring to a 'majority of ethnic Baloch'.
                  I wouldnt know whether its a majority or not, all i accept is that the hostility is widespread because that is what has been reported for years and the geographical spread of the rebellion is very large, covering practically the whole Balochistan territory minus serveral districts in the north where Pashtuns are in majority. It is you that has your head buried in the dirt and refuses to accept this, instead, you think you know better. Funny.

                  And where does the Nation corroborate the allegations of Talpur that the military is actually carrying out a military operation against terrorists instead of providing relief to earthquake victims?
                  It confirms Jillani, you keep harping on about Talpur yet your initial rejection was of Jillani's report.

                  No, the latter two pieces you posted talk about real issues, discuss real problems in governance, of local corruption and the lack of development in Balochistan that has created an environment where terrorist groups can operate with local support. Neither the Nation editorial nor Baloch's opinion piece support or justify terrorist leaders and terrorism, or try to make ludicrous claims about 'military operations being carried out under the guise of earthquake relief'.
                  The Nation confirms that there is deep hostility in Balochistan towards Pakistan, if you cant gage that from the editorial then you're as incompetent as those Pakistani officials who've got their heads buried in the dirt too. OTHO, Sanaullah Baloch goes further and confirms Talpur's assertion that the Pakistani military has blocked off Balochistan to the outside World and has instructed its army to carry out operations there. For the Baloch, these arent aid operations, they're military ones. All foreign and civilian aid has been denied to them according to both Talpur and Baloch.

                  I again appeal to the intelligence of other members and the admins here to warn you about your spin doctoring.

                  Comment


                  • There are now Strong chances of the formation of Southern Pakhtunkhwa within Balochistan

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 1980s View Post
                      I wouldnt know whether its a majority or not, all i accept is that the hostility is widespread because that is what has been reported for years and the geographical spread of the rebellion is very large, covering practically the whole Balochistan territory minus serveral districts in the north where Pashtuns are in majority.
                      Yet the limited polling data indicates that, geographically widespread or not, only a small minority in Balochistan is in support of independence.
                      It confirms Jillani, you keep harping on about Talpur yet your initial rejection was of Jillani's report.
                      It confirms the presence of resentment with corruption and a lack of proper governance and development - even a majority of people in the Punjab province would voice those resentments. However what you have done is to argue that discontent over poor governance somehow translates to 'widespread hostility towards Pakistan'.

                      The Nation confirms that there is deep hostility in Balochistan towards Pakistan, if you cant gage that from the editorial then you're as incompetent as those Pakistani officials who've got their heads buried in the dirt too. OTHO, Sanaullah Baloch goes further and confirms Talpur's assertion that the Pakistani military has blocked off Balochistan to the outside World and has instructed its army to carry out operations there. For the Baloch, these arent aid operations, they're military ones. All foreign and civilian aid has been denied to them according to both Talpur and Baloch.
                      The editorial in the Nation confirms discontent over poor governance, which exists in almost every part of Pakistan. It does not support your argument of 'widespread hostility towards Pakistan'. Baloch only confirms the obvious facts, facts that no one is questioning, facts that the Pakistani government and military itself have stated outright, that private aid organizations will not be allowed to operate in the region due to security concerns. No one is questioning that part - that part that I am questioning and that no one except you and terrorist supporters like Talpur and Fatah appear to support is the ludicrous allegation that the Pakistani military is carrying out military operations under the guise of relief work.
                      I again appeal to the intelligence of other members and the admins here to warn you about your spin doctoring.
                      My spin doctoring? You posted an article by an author openly praising terrorists and terrorism. You continue to defend that authors ludicrous and unsubstantiated allegations of 'a Pakistani military operation under the guise of earthquake relief'. Perhaps you should take a step back and try and analyze the situation without your anti-Pakistan prejudice.
                      Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 03 Oct 13,, 18:55.
                      Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                      https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                        Baloch only confirms the obvious facts, facts that no one is questioning, facts that the Pakistani government and military itself have stated outright, that private aid organizations will not be allowed to operate in the region due to security concerns. No one is questioning that part
                        Um, you havent read Baloch's piece, have you? Or you're really just that thick.

                        So now, ive had enough of your spin and lack of integrity. Ive submitted a report for some admins to review your input over the past several posts to determine your agenda, as i am no longer convinced that i am discussing with a real person. You're too thick for me to take seriously anymore, and i suspect that you're trolling.

                        I am only interested in discussing things with real, serious people. Spin, circles and frivilous chatter i have zero interest in.

                        Lets see what others here determine about this.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 1980s View Post
                          Um, you havent read Baloch's piece, have you? Or you're really just that thick.
                          Since I am so 'thick', perhaps you can show me where exactly Baloch corroborates Talpur's ludicrous allegations about 'the Pakistani military conducting a military operation under the guise of earthquake relief'.

                          What else exactly do you wish for me to 'take away' from Baloch's opinion piece? Why don't YOU actually elaborate on what it is that YOU take away from that piece.
                          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 1980s View Post

                            I am only interested in discussing things with real, serious people. Spin, circles and frivilous chatter i have zero interest in.
                            Any 'real, serious debate' can only occur once the use of terrorism/violence by secessionist/terrorist groups has been condemned. Any 'dialog' with the 'separatist/terrorist groups' can only occur when they lay down their weapons and accept the constitution of Pakistan and commit to using the established constitutional processes to negotiate increased political and/or economic autonomy within the Pakistani Federation.

                            Any debate that utilizes commentary where terrorist leaders and terrorists are lionized (such as Talpur's love letter to Allah Nazar) is doomed to failure. Any debate that involves calls for the dismemberment of Pakistan and support for terrorist groups fighting the Pakistani government and massacring innocent ethnic Baloch and non-baloch civilians is going to go down the same road as this particular one. If you want to debate the 'injustices done to Balochistan' within the constitution of Pakistan, while condemning the violent terrorist groups operating in Balochistan, you'll find that a lot of Pakistanis will agree with many of the positions articulated by commentators like Baloch.
                            Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 03 Oct 13,, 20:45.
                            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                            Comment


                            • Back to the topic

                              Back on topic, another from Sanaullah Baloch. It sheds a little more light on the Pakistani attitude towards the competing scenarios in Balochistan with regards to Talibanization and the depth of the nationalist rebellion. Unsurprisingly, Talibanization in Balochistan and FATA is considered useful for Islamabad, which is pretty much a reiteration of the Baloch-Pashtun unity conference that was held in Afghanistan last month.

                              Simplistic solutions to Balochistan won’t work
                              By Sanaullah Baloch
                              Published: October 3, 2013

                              The much-talked about All Parties Conference (APC) concluded without a clear framework to end Pakistan’s two major conflicts — the Taliban crisis and the politico-nationalist conflict in Balochistan. Talks with the Taliban received overwhelming attention in sharp contrast to the multifaceted conflict in Balochistan.

                              This disregard shown towards Balochistan is understandable. The deep state considers politically mature, moderate and rights-seeking Baloch nationalists as strategic threats to their decades-old, colonial-style rule; however, the same establishment seemingly considers the Taliban a long-term strategic partner in the regional geopolitical context despite these militants being utterly lethal. By deleting Balochistan from the APC deliberations, Islamabad has attempted to downgrade the importance of the subject and rebrand it as a mere local, provincial matter rather than a national crisis.

                              Nevertheless, Balochistan’s burning scenario preoccupies Pakistan’s policymakers in all international forums. Nawaz Sharif’s recent mention of Balochistan when meeting with Manmohan Singh is a clear indication that the scale and impact of the Balochistan crisis cannot be ignored.

                              The APC’s tactic to give ‘permission’ to the Balochistan chief minister, concerning talks with Baloch nationalists, further signifies Islamabad’s unwillingness to understand and resolve this crisis. The conflict in Balochistan has nothing to do with the provincial government. The Baloch nationalists’ demands and struggle are directed towards the central government and the non-Baloch security apparatus. It’s a conflict between two ideas — one that believes in over-centralisation, Talibanisation and the depoliticisation of Balochistan and the other that believes in political freedom, fair development, modernisation, equity and equality. The crisis in the province is neither Baloch versus Baloch nor Baloch versus Pashtun; it’s a conflict between the Baloch and the centre. Human rights issues, i.e., disappearances, torture, political assassinations and economic exploitation — are all related to Islamabad and not linked with the provincial administration. Demands surrounding the political revolt — ranging from self-determination to greater autonomy and restructuring of the security structure, are all directed towards the centre. Downgrading the intensity of the crisis may suit some elements within the security and political establishment but it’s a bitter reality that this is a conflict of great magnitude. Its genesis dates back to 1948 — caused by a flawed political structure and the centre’s policies — and it has subsequently resulted in repeated political revolts from the Baloch parties.

                              A proper understanding of the root causes of the conflict is critical. Islamabad’s simplistic approach, of branding the Balochistan crisis as being foreign-sponsored or as a societal crisis of tribalism and local competition, has done a lot of damage. Pakistan is a multi-ethnic society with an outdated colonial structure. Ethnic emotions, rooted in historical memories of grievances, together with unabated rights violations, discrimination, underdevelopment, insecurity are at the core of the conflict between the powerful centre and the powerless Baloch.

                              In order to devise effective peace-building strategies, it is necessary to recognise the multiple factors that are causing animosity and strife. The Pakistani elite have little time to ponder over the grief the families of the missing Baloch youth, daily abductions, killings and the worsening economic situation. Such acts are supplementing the crisis and pushing the Baloch towards morphing into a more radical and unmanageable society. A peaceful resolution of this conflict lies in politically-tested conflict resolution mechanisms. A comprehensive framework along with a peace agreement on the lines of peace accords in Aceh, Ireland and the Kurdish region in Iraq are some of the options that provide a context for peaceful coexistence within the territorial framework.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                                Any 'real, serious debate' can only occur once the use of terrorism/violence by secessionist/terrorist groups has been condemned. Any 'dialog' with the 'separatist/terrorist groups' can only occur when they lay down their weapons and accept the constitution of Pakistan and commit to using the established constitutional processes to negotiate increased political and/or economic autonomy within the Pakistani Federation.

                                Any debate that utilizes commentary where terrorist leaders and terrorists are lionized (such as Talpur's love letter to Allah Nazar) is doomed to failure. Any debate that involves calls for the dismemberment of Pakistan and support for terrorist groups fighting the Pakistani government and massacring innocent ethnic Baloch and non-baloch civilians is going to go down the same road as this particular one. If you want to debate the 'injustices done to Balochistan' within the constitution of Pakistan, while condemning the violent terrorist groups operating in Balochistan, you'll find that a lot of Pakistanis will agree with many of the positions articulated by commentators like Baloch.
                                You know, this is so funny to read and ive tried really hard to ignore it. But i just had to actually laugh at this. I mean, who are you? Who are you writing this for? Are you some kind of PR secretary to the Pakistani comedy club at Rawalpindi hq or something? You're not talking to me are you? You're talking past me in some kind of strange rhetoric directed at God knows who. Maybe Allah Nazar reads these forums in your mind and this is your warning to him and other Baloch rebels? lol

                                In anycase, 60-something year old Pakistan which is a purely post-WWII artificial colonial construct of the British with arbitrary British drawn borders and in the words of Sanaullah Baloch an "outdated colonial structure" is hardly sacrosanct or to be taken seriously since practically nobody recognizes its so-called 'territorial integrity'. It has border and territorial disputes with India and Afghanistan, a border with Iran that the Iranians have sealed off with concrete walls, barbed wire fences and ditches to keep the Pakistanis out, a border that the Pashtuns on your side dont even recognize and a relationship that is widely rejected among the Baloch. - Some constitution worth negotiating within that your ruling cliques dont even respect themselves and cant even enforce anyway! What a joke.. Your borders are fake, not of your own making and are named after British imperialists and you're proud of this? Damn.. Less than 2% of your people pay any income taxes and you're a basket case for foreign aid. Please.. your constitution isnt worth the paper its written on. Nobody respects it, not even your establishment.

                                I think im beginning to understand you better. You're insecure, and suffering from a massive inferiority complex about the disaster and hollow entity called Pakistan that your own personal identity and sense of worth is so intricately bound up with. You're not an individual with your own mind and thoughts. You sound like a poorly programmed robot, or a brainwashed and gullible juvenile.

                                What really matters to you is not the real World, or the reality of war in Balochistan. In the words of Baloch, you're one of these "Pakistani elites" arent you?

                                Your only concern is maintaining the shape of Pakistan on the map that British imperialists like Mortimer Durand and Cyril Radcliffe drew for your country. Your identity is so tied in with this farcical concept and ideology called Pakistan that any challenge to it absolutely terrifies you doesnt it? Because Pakistanis have been raised and taught to feel enmity towards India havent they? Which in reality, means enmity towards themselves because you're basically a confused Indian, arent you? And the notion of Pakistan disintegrating and embassies around the World having to reissue you all with the original Indian passport of your grandparents absolutely terrorizes and bewilders you, doesnt it?

                                Funny guy, you're clearly not here to seriously debate with other people. You're insecure and here to reassure yourself of a shaky identity and an ideology that doesnt hold up to scrutiny. Thats why you talk past people with rhetoric and spin, you dont care for discussion, you care about making yourself feel better about an identity thats in conflict with reality.

                                Im done with you.

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