64 dead in Samjhauta Express : Terror Attack ?

[Archer]

QUOTE: It could also be a US attempt to derail Indo-Pak peace process & thereby derailing the India-Iran gas pipeline. Sounds rather preposterous but a possibility nevertheless only if we are letting our hourses run wild in the meadows of imagination.



If you read his full paragraph it reads like he wants to raise that probability in the imagination. It reads much like the liberal garbage in the press here in America.
Why even postulate such rubbish out of whole cloth anyway? Seems out of place. But I will take his word until further notice.:)


Ivan

Your response proves the point about how tasteless and useless such commentary can be, even if "speculation". I believe Akshay was being sarcastic and actually proved the case by raising a flag and hence showing how such speculation itself is offensive.

[Archer]

Some people here are utterly ignorant about Bal Thackeray and the Shiv Sena's history, yet they keep talking as if they know everything about them! Some claim that the worse that the SS did was dig up cricket pitches.....only someone talking out of their ass or who is totally ignorant of the situation can do that.

Rest of the Blah Blah snipped.

Thanks for that rant. It should have been obvious that my bit was a putdown on Thackerays antics, but we have you to take it the other way!

[nitinjindal83]

Dude this is silly. When was the last time in sixty years, that any Hindu group committed an act of terrorism using RDX etc? You are simply spinning ties where none exist.

If a Hindu group claimed it would kill Pakistanis on Indian soil, had a record of using RDX, bombs etc- it deserves being investigated. Otherwise, its one more example of muck raking and trying to place both groups, Islamists and Hindus on an equal pedestal, when there is no comparison.

It can happen that some extremist hindus want justice for akshardham, ayodhya, bombay, etc in there own way. I am sure, you will find people in this very forum with tit fot tat, eye for eye mentality, people who would support RAW activities in destabilising pakistan. Killing pakistanis is the very next step for any such irrational mind.

May be not this attack, but in future if one of these ayodhya's or nagpur's goes successful, hindu extremists taking arms to target pakistanis in india can become a possibility.

Anyway, you are too worried about how even talking about hindus involved in such accidents will harm our media image, truth be damned.

Nitin Jindal,

Godhra was an act of terrorism, per the Gujarat police. Its aftermath ie the riots were a pure law and order issue and of criminality, not terrorism in the context of how the world is used the world over. Eg the events post the Rodney King incident were also a case of mob violence, not terrorism. But Timothy Mc Veighs acts were terrorism.

Mafias, shout-outs, hafta vasooli is law and order problem. Please dont put communal riots in this category, specially when state and center turn blind eye to them.

I often read people calling these political crimes/uprisings as law and order problem and then try to deal with them like they deal with normal criminals. This is not good. This is one such school of thought that prevented kashmir uprising or Naxal menace from being nipped in bud.

[subba]

Your response proves the point about how tasteless and useless such commentary can be, even if "speculation". I believe Akshay was being sarcastic and actually proved the case by raising a flag and hence showing how such speculation itself is offensive.

Exactly. Ironically Akshay sir got done on the very point he was trying to make. ;)

It can happen that some extremist hindus want justice for akshardham, ayodhya, bombay, etc in there own way.

Absolutely Nitin Ji. Thats why we mentioned the possibility of US involvement too. They'd hate the IPI pipeline to go through. Possibilities and motives exist. Plus CIA has done such jobs in the past. Though we don't have extremist Hindu groups with such experience as yet. We could search motives anywhere, even among members in this forum as you suggest. Maybe one of us did it. Same reason you gave..frustration. ;)

However i don't think that is how the forensic experts work out responsibility. There are intelligence inputs like groups which have actively threatened INdo-Pak rapproachment and people to people (P2P) contact. They are in the lists. There are violent groups that have attempted to do so (as in 2005 Indo-Pak bus). They are in the suspect lists of the police. The list goes on. However to nail the guilty what is required is proper forensic evidence.

Forensics don't assume which groups is behind it and mould the RDX or urea/nitric acid mix to fix a certain group. They painstakingly find chemical compositions. They find where these chemicals are procured. Levels of expertize required are matched to groups. Where certain chemicals are procured can be identified. Stockists are approached as to purchases. Leads identified. Names run through intelligence files. An entire situation is scientifically created as to how it was got into target spot. That is matched with eye witness evidence. Matched with a lot of inputs that confirm or deny groups involved.

So don't worry if it is the Ramakrishna mission or the Hare Krishna mission involved, the forensics will get to them. Don't bother about the motives. I too am one who is of the opinion that a stable Pakistan will always be a destabilizing influence on it's neighbourhood. We've seen that 60 years now.

Meanwhile your position resembles that of Teesta Setelvads right after the Malegaon blasts and now after this. Just hold your horses. It might after all be the Hare Krishnite's who are behind all this. :)

[Archer]

It can happen that some extremist hindus want justice for akshardham, ayodhya, bombay, etc in there own way. I am sure, you will find people in this very forum with tit fot tat, eye for eye mentality, people who would support RAW activities in destabilising pakistan. Killing pakistanis is the very next step for any such irrational mind.

May be not this attack, but in future if one of these ayodhya's or nagpur's goes successful, hindu extremists taking arms to target pakistanis in india can become a possibility.

See again you are talking absolute nonsense. Several Hindus may have wetdreams of taking on the LeT in Islamabad, eye for an eye etc. But who supplies them explosives? Who trains them in intell gathering, avoiding detection, weaponry assembly, and route planning? Who trains these guys to create sleeper cells, act as Muslims in Pakistan and bide their time? You see the difference? Without state support, without the orgs themselves deciding to kill Pakistanis even at the expense of Indian security forces (whom every Hindu rightwing group venerates!), how is this possible! Yet you engage in an equivocation between jihadis & these groups who have no declared motive to do a terror strike.

What is more silly, indeed naive about your commentary is that you are taking your POV, projecting it as correct & then stating anything to the reverse to be "extremist". If destabilising Pak helps India manage Pak terror, I and many others will be all for it. If 10 eyes for an eye till Pak runs out of eyes prevents attacks on India, then its worth it. Pray tell, what do you think the Indian Army's "fire assaults" on the LOC were? Or do you know more than them in dealing with Pak terror attacks?

Every state has the right to prevent terrorism and dissuade rogue states from using terrorism as an instrument of state policy.

Anyway, you are too worried about how even talking about hindus involved in such accidents will harm our media image, truth be damned.

Yes indeed, you have damned the truth. I am not worried about "media image" or "brownie points", I am against the concept of communal stereotyping the kind which you have repeatedly demonstrated in your posts. You assume that just because Muslims were attacked, it could be Hindus and dont give any consideration to the fact that no Hindu group has rebelled against the state. IOW, you do exactly what the terrorists expect of you, ie engage in a kneejerk response about how since Muslims were killed, Hindus "may have been responsible", so how different is this from since Arabs got a bad rep on 9/11, "Mossad may have been involved". An Israeli who objects to this statement, is he concerned about "media image" or this knee jerk attempt at equating terrorists to their targets? Admit it, you made a communal generalization.

Mafias, shout-outs, hafta vasooli is law and order problem. Please dont put communal riots in this category, specially when state and center turn blind eye to them.

How is it not a law and order problem? If the law is applied effectively on all sides, do you think these events would occur? Both a Bajrangi and Abdul with the rock would run or in fact know better than to riot.

I often read people calling these political crimes/uprisings as law and order problem and then try to deal with them like they deal with normal criminals. This is not good. This is one such school of thought that prevented kashmir uprising or Naxal menace from being nipped in bud.

Riot suppression has little to do with insurgencies! A communal riot can be stopped and many have, if the local administration and police are effectively trained and show willpower. Insurgencies and the causes of communal conflict are far more complex!

[veera8]

It can happen that some extremist hindus want justice for akshardham, ayodhya, bombay, etc in there own way. I am sure, you will find people in this very forum with tit fot tat, eye for eye mentality, people who would support RAW activities in destabilising pakistan. Killing pakistanis is the very next step for any such irrational mind.

May be not this attack, but in future if one of these ayodhya's or nagpur's goes successful, hindu extremists taking arms to target pakistanis in india can become a possibility.

Anyway, you are too worried about how even talking about hindus involved in such accidents will harm our media image, truth be damned.




Mafias, shout-outs, hafta vasooli is law and order problem. Please dont put communal riots in this category, specially when state and center turn blind eye to them.

I often read people calling these political crimes/uprisings as law and order problem and then try to deal with them like they deal with normal criminals. This is not good. This is one such school of thought that prevented kashmir uprising or Naxal menace from being nipped in bud.

nitin,
is it like ur long stay at pee def has completely ruined ur intellectual capability ..why is that u are adamantly trying to incriminate hindus behind the blast ...
at the bottom line its is indians who are dying constantly and every time pseudo seculars pop up and sing those great ahmisa,non vilolence rheotric to pacify us ....
is there any improvement in delhi bomb blast or atleasst recent Mumbai train blast ?????
is it like we indians have accepted that they are born scape goats and any one can take india for granted ????

finally ,
yes iam a extremists and who want a tit for tat retaliation ,tell us what solution u have

[nitinjindal83]

nitin,
is it like ur long stay at pee def has completely ruined ur intellectual capability ..why is that u are adamantly trying to incriminate hindus behind the blast ...
at the bottom line its is indians who are dying constantly and every time pseudo seculars pop up and sing those great ahmisa,non vilolence rheotric to pacify us ....
is there any improvement in delhi bomb blast or atleasst recent Mumbai train blast ?????
is it like we indians have accepted that they are born scape goats and any one can take india for granted ????

finally ,
yes iam a extremists and who want a tit for tat retaliation ,tell us what solution u have

I am not incriminating or trying to incriminate anyone behind the blasts. I am simply concerned about some misguided hindu youths, who may take such extreme steps, if not now may be in future if sane people are not on guard.
I am not trying to put entire hindu religion on stand here. Such allegation I might add is insulting to me as a hindu.

Regarding my time at pdf, it was alearning experience. Got tired of dealing with kids and hitler mods, so stopped posting.

Tit for tat will only make us stoop to there level. After every such blast, people talk about various steps to strengthen system to prevent them in future, yet the frequency of attacks has only increased or stayed the same. So, first step towards any solution should be to actually implement such steps.

nitin

[Archer]

I am not incriminating or trying to incriminate anyone behind the blasts. I am simply concerned about some misguided hindu youths, who may take such extreme steps, if not now may be in future if sane people are not on guard.

Uh huh. Who are these misguided youths and who will train them, sponsor them, convince them that 72 virgins await them?

You simply display a complete lack of logic here. Terrorism requires support, idealogical and logistical. Even if the first comes to be true, thanks to incessant attacks on hindu temples, public places, Indian cities who provides the second, ie training and material support? Do you think the GOI will wait & watch and let the first occur? Do Indian cities, like Pakistani ones carry open donation boxes for Hindu jihad in Pakistan?

Have you read the latest about the blast? Jury rigged suitcases intended to start a fire. You think Anil Shukla from Patna who attends a VHP rally gets the training to accurately combine different substances for optimum ignition, jury rig igniters, gets training in making it sufficiently rugged to avoid accidental explosion, manages to have it avoid security including sniffer dogs? That guys idea of weaponry would have barely advanced past the rudimentary gupti/ rampuri level. And even he, after a few years of strutting around in front of the VHP office, will ultimately marry, get responsible and have kids. Unless he wastes his life in a riot or goes into politics. Nobody to give his family 100,000 Rs/- if he perishes in the cause of "jihad" to liberate Pak occupied Kashmir, or Akhand Bharat. See the difference? Our communal squabbles, sectarian strife are peanuts compared to what professional terrorism demands in terms of idealogy, logistics and commitment. There are no mothers in India sitting and producing shaheeds to go across the LOC and become "martyrs" for hinduism. But the reverse is what sustains the LeT.

Yet you compare the two. And then state that you require proof.

Boss, all you are doing here is insisting, with no shred of evidence or even logic.

I am not trying to put entire hindu religion on stand here. Such allegation I might add is insulting to me as a hindu.

Ok, so now you wake up. First you claim moments after the terror strike that hindu extremists could be responsible, with absolutely no evidence to back it up, then you want evidence to state thty arent, and finally- now, you state you are not trying to stereotype. Have you looked through your statements and how whimsical they are?

FYI, Jamaat ud Dawa, the "missionary" wing of the LeT has blamed the Shiv Sena for the blasts, they also happened to be ready in time to receive the passengers before the Pak Govt and Army, wow- what a crystal ball, eh? Good show Nitin, you just did what they expected you to do. Keep it up, and a few years from now we'll have more & more on how "hindu extremists" could have done this, may have done this & it will be you trying to state the reverse at Mullah central.

Regarding my time at pdf, it was alearning experience. Got tired of dealing with kids and hitler mods, so stopped posting.

Yup, but it seems instructive that your train of thought followed theirs. Should have spent less time at Mullah central.

Tit for tat will only make us stoop to there level. After every such blast, people talk about various steps to strengthen system to prevent them in future, yet the frequency of attacks has only increased or stayed the same. So, first step towards any solution should be to actually implement such steps.nitin

Or have you considered that these steps wont work? Because India is too huge a country to effectively seal? Never mind that only a totalitarian police state could detect & prevent all such attacks in time.
The solution is simple- either take the war to them or dissuade them some other way, big and bigger walls never worked. The Maginot line was outflanked, the Great Wall of China was no sterling success either. Think.

[nitinjindal83]

Uh huh. Who are these misguided youths and who will train them, sponsor them, convince them that 72 virgins await them?

You simply display a complete lack of logic here. Terrorism requires support, idealogical and logistical. Even if the first comes to be true, thanks to incessant attacks on hindu temples, public places, Indian cities who provides the second, ie training and material support? Do you think the GOI will wait & watch and let the first occur? Do Indian cities, like Pakistani ones carry open donation boxes for Hindu jihad in Pakistan?

Have you read the latest about the blast? Jury rigged suitcases intended to start a fire. You think Anil Shukla from Patna who attends a VHP rally gets the training to accurately combine different substances for optimum ignition, jury rig igniters, gets training in making it sufficiently rugged to avoid accidental explosion, manages to have it avoid security including sniffer dogs? That guys idea of weaponry would have barely advanced past the rudimentary gupti/ rampuri level. And even he, after a few years of strutting around in front of the VHP office, will ultimately marry, get responsible and have kids. Unless he wastes his life in a riot or goes into politics. Nobody to give his family 100,000 Rs/- if he perishes in the cause of "jihad" to liberate Pak occupied Kashmir, or Akhand Bharat. See the difference? Our communal squabbles, sectarian strife are peanuts compared to what professional terrorism demands in terms of idealogy, logistics and commitment. There are no mothers in India sitting and producing shaheeds to go across the LOC and become "martyrs" for hinduism. But the reverse is what sustains the LeT.

Yet you compare the two. And then state that you require proof.

Boss, all you are doing here is insisting, with no shred of evidence or even logic.

Ok, so now you wake up. First you claim moments after the terror strike that hindu extremists could be responsible, with absolutely no evidence to back it up, then you want evidence to state thty arent, and finally- now, you state you are not trying to stereotype. Have you looked through your statements and how whimsical they are?

FYI, Jamaat ud Dawa, the "missionary" wing of the LeT has blamed the Shiv Sena for the blasts, they also happened to be ready in time to receive the passengers before the Pak Govt and Army, wow- what a crystal ball, eh? Good show Nitin, you just did what they expected you to do. Keep it up, and a few years from now we'll have more & more on how "hindu extremists" could have done this, may have done this & it will be you trying to state the reverse at Mullah central.

Yup, but it seems instructive that your train of thought followed theirs. Should have spent less time at Mullah central.

Or have you considered that these steps wont work? Because India is too huge a country to effectively seal? Never mind that only a totalitarian police state could detect & prevent all such attacks in time.
The solution is simple- either take the war to them or dissuade them some other way, big and bigger walls never worked. The Maginot line was outflanked, the Great Wall of China was no sterling success either. Think.

PAKISTANIS were targetted in this blast. Who want them to suffer or die more than any one else. This tragedy has only strengthened the peace process. Logical mind knows that to derail peace process, you blow train with indians in it, but to get back at pakistanis you blow train with pakistanis in it. My premise is based on this logic. I dont have any evidence for this blast and its not my job to get it.

Solution to prevent such attacks can never be simple. War to pakistan will only lead to more misery and suffering. Have some faith in democratic institutions. If people collectively work on reforming police system, stengthening justice system, and addressing public greviences, I believe the number of such attacks can be brought down. War with pakistan alone is not a solution, when our own internal security apparatus is in shambles.

If Anil Shukla of VHP can barge into a muslim home and burn men, women and children alive, yes I believe he can burn samjhauta train too. If he can get all the support and infrastructure he wants for playing his role in gujarat riots, who knows what else he can get.

If gujarat riots or by your logic babri masjid were law and order problems, then VHP/Bajrang dal are D-company and Singhal/Advanis are the Dawoods and Chhota Rajans'.

nitin

[gamercube]

It does seem weird that Pakistan jihadi groups would target their own countrymen to derail the peace process.

The logical explanation would be that the Bajrang Dal and other such outfits might have had something to do with it. However, although the Bajrang Dal has committed grievous crimes in the past, they have never gone to the extent of placing bombs anywhere.

I do agree with Nitin though, all possibilities must be investigated. And it is obvious as to who would have a motive to kill a bunch of Pakistanis.

[kams]

Use of TID instead of IED is a worrying development. These can wreck havoc in crowded Indian railways where it is very difficult to provide fool proof security.

[subba]

News coming in..

Security agencies probing the Samjhauta Express blasts on Tuesday night said the incident was the handiwork of Pakistan-based militant groups.

Highly-placed sources in Union Home Ministry said they had "vital clues," which included a telephonic conversation between a caller from Delhi to Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

The sources declined to give out the identity of the militant groups behind the blasts, but hinted at sleeper cells of Lashkar-e-Tayiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed.

These militant groups, the sources said, have adopted a new modus operandi of detonating low-intensity blasts with explosive materials comprising readily available combustibles.

The matter would be taken up with Pakistan authorities who would also be apprised of the investigation into the blasts, the sources said, but ruled out it would be part of the agenda of the meeting between External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee and his Pakistani counterpart Khurshid Mehmood Kasuri on Wednesday.

Blasts handiwork of Pak-based militants: India

[kams]

Special rules violated, railway staff suspended

[QUOTE]TICKETS ISSUED in Delhi without confirming passengers' passport and visa details. Close checking of these details only at Attari. This was the procedure being routinely followed by railway officials. Sunday night's blasts on the Delhi-Attari Express were a disaster waiting to happen.

On Tuesday it was found that the railways staff had issued at least 50 general-compartment tickets for Attari on Sunday without recording the passengers' passport and visa details. Five railway officials have been suspended as a result for "negligence on duty".

"Passport details are a must for every ticket issued on this train," said Rajiv Saxena, spokesman, Northern Railways. But suspended chief booking supervisor, D.K. Sabharwal, said: "One need not have a passport to book tickets for Attari because it is an Indian station." Shaukat Ali, one of the TTEs on the train, said: "Proper checking takes place only at Attari."

Divisional Railways Manager Rakesh Saxena said it was impossible to say whether the 50 people who bought tickets for Attari for Sunday took this particular train.
But security experts were scathing in their criticism. "The train needed extraordinary security measures," said Ajai Raj Sharma, former commissioner of police, Delhi. "With such security lapses, this was waiting to happen."[/QUOTE]

Hope the official make up their mind on the procedure to follow.

[brokensickle]

Suprise! Suprise!

News coming in..



Blasts handiwork of Pak-based militants: India

I can't wait for further investigation!:)



Ivan

[subba]

Did they bomb the WRONG train???

IN an adjacent platform there was another train Sabarmati Express to leave for Ahmedabad in Gujarat. They say the platform was dark. Could it be that these people boarded the wrong train? The police and witnesses have confirmed that the 2 suspects whose pictures have been given, argued with a police personnel on board that they were supposed to board the other train. They were dropped off 15 minutes before the blasts. Another suspect (survived) threw a suitcase that contained bombs onto the tracks as the train was moving. Thats before the blasts. Something sure was happening. It is possible that they got onto the wrong train..