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  • 667,
    The pak strategy in afg has been to isolate Indian access. Had gilgit still been a part of India, it would have given a land route. The afghans understand well that they are a hostage to the pak blackmail. The Paks understand that the afghans will ally with India the first change they get but the lack of GB makes it unviable.

    Understand that the Paks are a nuclear power and this one facet alone changes americas entire fundamental position wrt approaching Pakistan. It limits their ability to maneuver, to the point where they even refuse to acknowledge that they got played (See ISI agents involvement in 911 and osama being found in abbotabad). There's very little the Americans can do (holding the tiger by the tail situation).

    Pre-1947, the christian british understood well that they were also foreigners who couldn't ally with Hindu India. So they allied with the other foreigners(Muslims) to rule India. The muslims were getting raided by the Marathas and tribal militias and they were reduced to pockets of old Delhi and hyd. In this situation, this alliance of two foreigners was a natural consequence and it eventually ended in 1857. Some people get confused and think that democracies are natural allies. Remember that two civilizations cannot exist without conflict.

    The paks were originally befriended by the Americans to counter the soviets. In the 50s, the paks managed to get the Americans to promise an intervention in case India threatened the survival of the nation state. After the collapse of the soviet union, the paks took on the role of a counterbalance against India with US blessings.

    The rise of China and global jihad has changed the dynamic. After 911, the Paks understood that they could flex their muscles against the Americans by pledging strategic allegiance to the Chinese. Shia iran and others too understood that nuclearisation(like pak) offers an effective and ideal deterrence against the west and it can change their fortunes.

    Due to the cascading effect, India has abandoned its policy of NAM and embraced multi-allignment, relying particularly on russia and other veto powers that have shown ability to withstand american pressure.

    The American power is on a continuous decline globally. They have already lost the trade war because of their inability and refusal to undervalue the US dollar. The global trading currency should have been replaced to yuan by now but hasn't because of american political pressure.

    In afganistan, the pashtuns privately acknowledge that they cannot entirely counter pak blackmail and have instead chose to agree to paks strategic demands. After spending more than a decade closely working alongside the ISI, the pashtuns have learned a few things along the way. One in particular, they have learned diplomacy(the art of telling lies).
    Last edited by nvishal; 10 Sep 21,, 16:24.

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    • Originally posted by 667medic View Post
      I keep reading articles about how the winner in Afghanistan is Pakistan but I fail to understand the logic.

      By winning, do you mean that Afghanistan is the bargaining chip to funnel funds to Pak and in return "control" terrorism emanating from Afghanistan?
      Keep in mind that the Taliban was birthed by the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence and military...they are not totally under the ISI's control but they do wield a big influence. And a Pak victory in Astan redounds to their positive.

      And for some who asked why the US didn't play hardball with the Paks.....it's simple. Our lines of communications ran through Pakistan...literally all our food, fuel & ammo rolled through Pakistan in convoys. You cannot maintain a supply by airbridge for those items.
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

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      • Originally posted by 667medic View Post
        I keep reading articles about how the winner in Afghanistan is Pakistan but I fail to understand the logic.

        By winning, do you mean that Afghanistan is the bargaining chip to funnel funds to Pak and in return "control" terrorism emanating from Afghanistan?
        I'm laughing right now. Afghanistan is now a complete money pit and headache for Pakistan. China committed $31mil of food. That can't even feed a city, let alone the country. I don't give a damn if the TB are religious zealots. If you're starving, you go where the food is. Guess where? The Pakistani Embassy is now the unofficial government of Afghanistan, meaning they're stuck with the bureacracy of running the country. And whose tax dollars does the Pakistani Embassy has to run the Afghan bureaucracy? Hint: it ain't Afghani. At best, they have a Mexico/Bangladesh. More likely, they have Chechnya/Kosovo - a mafia brothel with an illegal narcotic industry with Pakistan as the main receiver while receiving Pakistani aid monies.

        The old adage of be careful of what you wish for, you just might get it.
        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 10 Sep 21,, 20:17.
        Chimo

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        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          I'm laughing right now. Afghanistan is now a complete money pit and headache for Pakistan. China committed $31mil of food. That can't even feed a city, let alone the country. I don't give a damn if the TB are religious zealots. If you're starving, you go where the food is. Guess where? The Pakistani Embassy is now the unofficial government of Afghanistan, meaning they're stuck with the bureacracy of running the country. And whose tax dollars does the Pakistani Embassy has to run the Afghan bureaucracy? Hint: it ain't Afghani. At best, they have a Mexico/Bangladesh. More likely, they have Chechnya/Kosovo - a mafia brothel with an illegal narcotic industry with Pakistan as the main receiver while receiving Pakistani aid monies.

          The old adage of be careful of what you wish for, you just might get it.
          Sir lets break it down to the basics

          1) Administration
          As you rightly mentioned the Pak embassy will guide the administration. At least Kabul is firmly in their bag as it is run by the Haqqanis.

          2) Money
          This is more problematic in the short run. In the long run, the mineral wealth will be exploited and compensated by the Chinese. Of course for that to happen, we need peace. I also think that Middleeast politics will come into play here. The Qataris have an outsized influence here although there is competition between the Haqqanis and Qatari group. I assume that the rest of the gulf states, especially UAE will want to poke their nose which means more petrol money flowing here.
          The Paks meanwhile will play ball to get them off the Grey list and receive other monies. After all don't they need to be economically strong in order to exert their "influence" to contain ISIS-K.
          Seek Save Serve Medic

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          • ‘Imminent Threat’ or Aid Worker: Did a U.S. Drone Strike in Afghanistan Kill the Wrong Person? - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
            In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

            Leibniz

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            • Taliban tortures, kills ex-VP Amrullah Saleh's brother in Panjshir: Report

              https://sg.news.yahoo.com/taliban-to...153715596.html

              10 Sep 2021: Taliban tortures, kills ex-VP Amrullah Saleh's brother in Panjshir: Report

              Afghanistan's former Vice President Amrullah Saleh's elder brother Rohullah Saleh was reportedly killed while he was leaving Panjshir for Kabul. Rohullah was reportedly tortured to death by the Taliban after his identity was disclosed. The news comes amid reports that clashes between the Taliban and resistance forces are continuing in Panjshir Valley, even though the former had claimed victory in the region days ago.
              Seek Save Serve Medic

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              • https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/09/10...stan-arsonist/


                Pakistan Is an Arsonist That Wants You to Think It’s a Firefighter

                Washington has an endless appetite for Islamabad’s con games.

                By C. Christine Fair, a professor at Georgetown University’s security studies program within the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service.

                SEPTEMBER 10, 2021, 1:37 PM
                On Aug. 27, U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham tweeted, “Any sustainable solution in Afghanistan must include Pakistan,” while also expressing his appreciation for the “efforts of the Pakistani government to assist with the evacuation of U.S. citizens, our allies, and other nations.” His comments reflect a familiar play: Pakistan has spent decades setting fires in South Asia—and then expected praise and renumeration for offering to put them out.

                It’s astonishing that U.S. officials continue to peddle Pakistan’s own fictions—alongside such media outlets as the BBC, as I discovered recently when I was cut off in the middle of an interview for speaking about it. But with the Afghanistan debacle on policymakers’ minds, it’s a good time to think critically about Washington’s perpetual vulnerability to Pakistan’s rent-seeking ruses. Both political parties have long been responsible for coddling Pakistan in hopes that there is some mystical U.S. policy that could reform its supposed wayward ally. Even though Pakistan’s involvement in Afghanistan goes back some seven decades, the Washington elite continues to fall for Pakistan’s efforts to sell itself as the solution to the very problems it created.

                Pakistani officials tell a heart-wrenching story. Pakistan was minding its business when, in 1979, the United States persuaded Pakistan to shoulder the burden of the struggle against communism in Soviet-controlled Afghanistan. Pakistani officials contend that they were a victim of American perfidy when the latter forgot Pakistan existed in the 1990s, leaving Islamabad to contend with the mess—while Washington had the effrontery to impose sanctions on a bamboozled ally because of its well-known efforts to secure a nuclear weapon.
                Seek Save Serve Medic

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                • Originally posted by 667medic View Post
                  2) Money
                  This is more problematic in the short run. In the long run, the mineral wealth will be exploited and compensated by the Chinese.
                  You actually think the local warlord/governor is going to share the wealth with other provinces and Kabul? And is it anywhere close to the $10bil the US has provided (and lost)?

                  Chimo

                  Comment


                  • The Taliban makes a billion annually from opium trade. Just like the cartel, they have a global narco trade and have seized an entire country as a safe haven.

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                    • Another statistic, who will be forgotten in a week. Seeing the final photo of the family is chilling, my life is blessed compared to what some others have to go through.
                      Was this operation launched on merit of plausible threat or was there a deadline to show that US was doing something as revenge for the Airport bomb attack?
                      Seek Save Serve Medic

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by nvishal View Post
                        The Taliban makes a billion annually from opium trade. Just like the cartel, they have a global narco trade and have seized an entire country as a safe haven.
                        Estimates range from $40mil to $6.6bil per year depending on who you talked to. Still taking the higher end, that ony represent some 12% of the GDP. Need to make a lot more money and they just can't flood the market. Supply and demand, the more there is, the cheaper it becomes. So, whatever way you want to look at it, the TB is in a world of hurt, and by extension, Pakistan, trying to stablize the country.

                        The desperation is real and the country is without hope and the last thing the TB needs is a population with no hope. They have nothing to lose, apparently not even their daughters.

                        https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...3ee2fca8cdd1de

                        Chimo

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                        • A billion may not be a lot for a modern govt. But it definitely is big money for a cartel. Nothing stops them from taxing the population and implementing an administration on face value to pacify the crowds.

                          The bottom line is, the taliban are not trying to run a modern country. They aren't interested in economics or hdi scores.

                          The top taliban leadership numbers around 300(500 max). If the cartel can terrorize mass districts into submission around latin america, what stops them from doing something similar in afg? with pakistani military support when required?

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                          • Blowback

                            Pakistan Army officer killed in attack in Balochistan | India Today | Aug 23 2021

                            1 officer dead and 2 wounded

                            Pakistani soldiers killed in cross border fire from Afghanistan | Al Jazeera | Aug 29 2021

                            The army did not say which group it thought was responsible for Sunday’s attack, but has long held that TTP leaders and fighters are sheltering in Afghanistan after fleeing the tribal districts during military operations targeting armed groups.
                            2 dead

                            Several soldiers killed in southwestern Pakistan suicide bombing | Al Jazeera | Sep 05 2021

                            Banned armed group Pakistan Taliban, known by the acronym TTP, claimed responsibility for the attack.

                            It was the first time TTP claimed an attack on Pakistani security forces since the Taliban – a separate organisation – took control of neighbouring Afghanistan.
                            3 dead and 15 wounded

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                            • The Afghan version of the show 'Hardtalk'. Tough questions by the Afghan anchor. Wish it was longer



                              If the Taliban upholds basic rights, its a govt we can work with. If it doesn't, we won't -- Blinken
                              Of the 33 ministers in the Taliban, 17 are UN designated terrorists. Some like Interior minister Sirajuddin Haqqani still have a US bounty.

                              Amir al-Mu'minin” Akunzada seems MIA. His claim to fame was ordering the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas and had a son that was a suicide bomber.

                              A few in the Taliban cabinet got sprung from Gitmo in exchange for the release of private Bowe Bergdahl. The Taliban 5.

                              Interesting number 5. India had to let go of 3 to get back a hijacked plane back in 1999.

                              Washington's man in the TB, Mullah Baradar has been relegated to deputy prime minster. After a tiff with the Haqqanis over portfolios where he was reportedly shot.

                              If the TB are the Pak puppets they are supposed to be why does the ISI chief have to fly over to Kabul to smooth over differences ? isn't a simple phone call enough.

                              Welcome to the wild wild EAST.

                              I'm not holding my breath on whether this lot 'upholds basic rights'
                              Last edited by Double Edge; 11 Sep 21,, 15:20.

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