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  • Originally posted by kuku View Post
    You do realise that when IA goes to destroy the forward deployed brigades of PA, losses will pile up on both sides.

    chest thumping aside, there is no revolutionary change between India Pakistan in that sector.
    I'm not worried about 1 time losses. I worry about daily killings of our Armymen and civilians, and how to stop it. If they hit us, we should wipe out an entire brigade, along with their machine gun nests, their artillery guns, fuel dumps, other hardware. Men, the PA can replace without much cost, but hardware costs real money. This is the Colonel's thinking, and I fully endorse it. Hit terroristan where it hurts them the most, their economy. Destroy their hardware, let them buy more, and get bankrupt sooner.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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    • Specific proof of Indian terrorism in Pakistan unveiled

      Jihadi islamic nazis are unto something.
      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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      • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
        I'm not worried about 1 time losses. I worry about daily killings of our Armymen and civilians, and how to stop it. If they hit us, we should wipe out an entire brigade, along with their machine gun nests, their artillery guns, fuel dumps, other hardware. Men, the PA can replace without much cost, but hardware costs real money. This is the Colonel's thinking, and I fully endorse it. Hit terroristan where it hurts them the most, their economy. Destroy their hardware, let them buy more, and get bankrupt sooner.
        The purpose of PA is to survive a war with enough capability to keep up its fight against India.
        As of now PA is quite happy staying behind and fighting thorough proxies, and giving some responses when indian military responds in kind to a large attack, Indian response gives PA the required legitimacy to be the system which runs Pakistan.

        I agree with your view that the right thing to do it to escalate things to a degree where it hurts them even to plan for any activities in India.
        this will require sacrifice from our end, from each home each village there will be sacrifices made of our loved ones, nothing worth its value comes easy.
        Sacrifices which no home, no village in india is afraid to make.

        The leadership required for such actions can only come from the prime minister's office.

        And it would be a massive excercise for the military forces, will cancel several of the annual dinner party plans they have lined up.
        The military heads and the bureaucrats lack are mostly "Yes minister" type of officers.
        They will prefer small chest thumping events, and make funny statements like we can crush pakistan in a day or two, they are like mosquitos for us, we could destroy their forward brigades.
        The houses they have in Delhi are so pretty, and in 3 years they retire.

        But the PMO also will like to have things quiet at the border, at any costs and try to keep his election preperation.
        Last edited by kuku; 15 Nov 20,, 18:30.

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        • The bureaucrats and the politicians have put off a lot of military investments to a point that they are all coming together now at time of unprecedented economic hardships. Which will not resolve anytime soon. There is the artillery aquisition, armour needs mid life upgrade, assault rifle aquisition, su-30 the backbone of AF needs a comprehensive upgrade, 36 more Rafale, 80-100 Tejas to replace the old migs, 2 naval aircraft carriers with aircraft's.
          Plus with PRC knocking on the door we need to invest a lot in EW and Counter EW tech.

          ​​​​​
          ​​​​​

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          • Pak concocting documents to accuse India of terrorism: Govt

            300 ultras ready to infiltrate from Pak launch pads: BSF
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              I'm not worried about 1 time losses. I worry about daily killings of our Armymen and civilians, and how to stop it. If they hit us, we should wipe out an entire brigade, along with their machine gun nests, their artillery guns, fuel dumps, other hardware. Men, the PA can replace without much cost, but hardware costs real money. This is the Colonel's thinking, and I fully endorse it. Hit terroristan where it hurts them the most, their economy. Destroy their hardware, let them buy more, and get bankrupt sooner.
              Some clarity here. Unless you're willinig to march all the way to Islamabad, you're essentially turning this into a low level to mid level war in which both sides can afford the losses. While India is economically stronger, Pakistan has China bankrolling her. China is gave Pakistan an entire Air Force production line and is negotiating to give them tanks at army level (as in 3 corps).

              You essentially end up with the 1979 to 2000 Sino-VN Border. While China came out ahead, it wasn't cheap as it cost her well over an army (as in lives, materials, and money). And took 20 years for China to bring Vietnam to her knees ... and only because oil prices crashed that lead to the crash of the USSR and the resulting funds and material cuts to Vietnam.

              Are you willing to pay the price China paid? Over 50,000 KIA/WIA, several tank regts, 20 years of regt/div level combat, and over a $bil cost in military expenditures/unharvestable crops.

              My points were completely tactical and operational - to deny the opposing forces their immediate war making capabilities ... but I'm under no illusions that those capabilities could be replaced.
              Chimo

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              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                Some clarity here. Unless you're willing to march all the way to Islamabad, you're essentially turning this into a low level to mid-level war in which both sides can afford the losses.

                While India is economically stronger, Pakistan has China bankrolling her. China is giving Pakistan an entire Air Force production line and is negotiating to give them tanks at army level (as in 3 corps).

                You essentially end up with 1979 to 2000 Sino-VN Border. While China came out ahead, it wasn't cheap as it cost her well over an army (as in lives, materials, and money).

                And took 20 years for China to bring Vietnam to her knees ... and only because oil prices crashed that lead to the crash of the USSR and the resulting funds and material cuts to Vietnam.

                Are you willing to pay the price China paid? Over 50,000 KIA/WIA, several tank regts, 20 years of regt/div level combat, and over a $bil cost in military expenditures/unharvestable crops.

                My points were completely tactical and operational - to deny the opposing forces their immediate war-making capabilities ... but I'm under no illusions that those capabilities could be replaced.
                PA has stated that they will use their Nuclear Bombs if there is a situation where IA is going to destroy PA and march to Islamabad.
                The delays in the mid-life upgrade of the IA's armour and much-required upgrade of IAF's Su-30s due from the 2010s show that GOI is not really in any mood for a long war, even more so for one where they are throwing nuclear bombs at each other.

                For any low-intensity war's India doesn't have any high technology edge to deal fast damage to the enemy.
                The decision to limit and delay the procurement of high technology items shows that GOI is not really in any mood for a short war as well.

                They will be able to do some hit and run activities like SF raids, artillery strikes and IAF bombing runs, and use propaganda tools for claiming a great victory, this is the only thing I see happening.

                Attached Files
                Last edited by kuku; 17 Nov 20,, 06:28.

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                • 20 years of pissing blood is not my idea of decisive action
                  Chimo

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                  • ^ How is it 20 years? It's 40+ continuous years. Before the illiterate islamic jihadi Pakistanis (90s' onwards), the PA/ISI started with the Khalistanis. I am being merciful to terrorisation today and not counting since 1947.
                    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                    • That's low level. Mid level is regt-divisional. Kargil is considered a mid-level war.
                      Chimo

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                      • ^ I thought you're talking about Pak terrorism.

                        Consider yourself the Indian PM for a day. As the Indian PM, you have all of the stuff that we have presently in our arsenal. What's your course for decisive action?
                        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                        • Terrorism in the military sense is just raids against exposed targets. Guerrilla/partisan actions are not designed against line units but exposed rear areas including civilian areas, especially civilian areas since they lack the abilities in a stand up fight which is what you want. Strong on weak.

                          I'm not the Indian PM, way above my pay grade. I don't pretend to know what is acceptable and unacceptable in the Indian political scene. What I am informing you is that the actions that you want was done by other powers to other hostile neighbours. Their results and costs.
                          Chimo

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                          • Nothings going to happen here.

                            The brotherly spirit we discovered with USA, will lose our regional allies in Iran and limit our role in Afghanistan. If the Afghan's fail you will have Pakistan redeploying the JeM's LeT's with the Taliban in Afghanistan, making it difficult for us to act against trained terrorists.
                            The valley remains to be as hostile as ever, with PRC's support and investment in the region PA will keep pushing these terrorists into India to ensure sporadic attacks against soft targets and using the Indian retaliatory actions as the justification for its dominance of Pakistan.
                            It's the same BS discussed during the last 3-4 peace negotiations, nothing ever came out of them. Except for Pakistan Special forces killing 200 people in Mumbai, while our security agencies twiddled their thumbs and made empty threats at everyone.
                            Even with a nationalist PM shouting we will do this we will do that, all we did was throw bombs at a run down madarsa, which was no doubt rebuilt, and all the terrorists killed replaced with new ones, we managed to shoot down our own helicopter in the process, and lose a fighter aircraft (thankfully the pilot survived).
                            India has declared it will not arm the Bloch rebellion as a counter or to support Afghanistan start a counter Taliban insurgency inside Pakistan.

                            The only viable option left is perhaps local management. Perhaps a page out of China's handling of Tibetans and Uighurs would be more effective, taking all the valley people and placing them in reeducation camps for 3-4 generations and flooding the valley with Indian Muslims while opening a lot of Indian Deobandi mosques.

                            Or perhaps making the tough choice and resolving the valley problem with Pakistan, ensuring gradual degradation of PA's power in Pakistan (which will be a very tough choice as to avoid this PA will unleash 10-15 events like Mumbai all across India).

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                            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              Terrorism in the military sense is just raids against exposed targets. Guerrilla/partisan actions are not designed against line units but exposed rear areas including civilian areas, especially civilian areas since they lack the abilities in a stand up fight which is what you want. Strong on weak.

                              I'm not the Indian PM, way above my pay grade. I don't pretend to know what is acceptable and unacceptable in the Indian political scene. What I am informing you is that the actions that you want was done by other powers to other hostile neighbours. Their results and costs.
                              We're a reactive country. We don't have a set military doctrine. We aren't investing much of our GDP into defence modernisation. Our military doesn't trust the United States, even though the incumbent Government is trying to tangle with the West. We have 1 theatre command, and we're thinking of maybe more, thinking. We think a lot, a lot of our time and money goes into thinking. Nothing comes out of that thinking.

                              I found out, that not only Government babus have a cold war era mentality, but many senior/junior officers of the Indian Armed forces have that. The past 4 US administrations have been trying to get closer to India, but our insecurity stands in the way. Strategic autonomy. Well, where was our strategic autonomy in 1962 when we requested Kennedy for arms and jets. We have sold our strategic autonomy when we saw gain (1971). We took, but never gave. Flip-flop FP doesn't exude much confidence among the global powers. We talk about punching according to our weight, but doesn't want to send soldiers to Afghanistan. Economy. Infrastructure. Ease of doing business. Corruption. Education. Healthcare. The list is long Colonel.
                              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by kuku View Post
                                Nothings going to happen here.

                                The brotherly spirit we discovered with USA, will lose our regional allies in Iran and limit our role in Afghanistan. If the Afghan's fail you will have Pakistan redeploying the JeM's LeT's with the Taliban in Afghanistan, making it difficult for us to act against trained terrorists.
                                The valley remains to be as hostile as ever, with PRC's support and investment in the region PA will keep pushing these terrorists into India to ensure sporadic attacks against soft targets and using the Indian retaliatory actions as the justification for its dominance of Pakistan.
                                It's the same BS discussed during the last 3-4 peace negotiations, nothing ever came out of them. Except for Pakistan Special forces killing 200 people in Mumbai, while our security agencies twiddled their thumbs and made empty threats at everyone.
                                Even with a nationalist PM shouting we will do this we will do that, all we did was throw bombs at a run down madarsa, which was no doubt rebuilt, and all the terrorists killed replaced with new ones, we managed to shoot down our own helicopter in the process, and lose a fighter aircraft (thankfully the pilot survived).
                                India has declared it will not arm the Bloch rebellion as a counter or to support Afghanistan start a counter Taliban insurgency inside Pakistan.

                                The only viable option left is perhaps local management. Perhaps a page out of China's handling of Tibetans and Uighurs would be more effective, taking all the valley people and placing them in reeducation camps for 3-4 generations and flooding the valley with Indian Muslims while opening a lot of Indian Deobandi mosques.

                                Or perhaps making the tough choice and resolving the valley problem with Pakistan, ensuring gradual degradation of PA's power in Pakistan (which will be a very tough choice as to avoid this PA will unleash 10-15 events like Mumbai all across India).
                                All good. But. Taliban follows Deobandi ideology. PA will never want to solve the Kashmir problem, as it eases their grip on Pakistan. Not all muslims of Kashmir praise Pakistan, want to join Pakistan, or want freedom from India.
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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