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  • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    This is about resource sharing. China can exploit all they want so long as some of the proceeds make its way back to the local communities.

    This reminds me of the 80's and separatists in Assam wanting independence because oil was found there. How is Digboi doing these days ?
    Nobody wanted independence. Oil was a bone of contention between the Central government vs the State government and the Assam Oil Company since independence. The agitation against outsiders were there since the 70s. By outsiders I mean Indians who aren't from Assam but who controlled Assam's economy. For e.g., Sikhs had a strong presence and controlling power when tea was auctioned. Oil too as you mentioned. In 1979, AASU started their protests against outsiders, but in a few months RSS hijacked it to an agitation against the illegal Bangladeshis. It's politics, but the catalyst and end reasons are always economic.

    ULFA was formed in 1979 too, and yes they wanted independence. Independence! Hell yeah! Independence. :D :D :D

    Digboi is a nice place. Not heard anything contradictory in years.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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    • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
      By outsiders I mean Indians who aren't from Assam but who controlled Assam's economy. For e.g., Sikhs had a strong presence and controlling power when tea was auctioned. Oil too as you mentioned.

      It's politics, but the catalyst and end reasons are always economic.
      Sounds similar to what's going on in Balochistan wouldn't you say. Outsiders there are Punjabis too.

      Similar problems in Burma as well against Indians & Chinese. Again the same in Uganda when Amin kicked the Indians out.

      In 1979, AASU started their protests against outsiders, but in a few months RSS hijacked it to an agitation against the illegal Bangladeshis.
      Didn't realise the RSS got in that early. They only got rehabilitated when the Janata govt came to power after being in the deep freeze since Gandhi's assassination.

      ULFA was formed in 1979 too, and yes they wanted independence. Independence! Hell yeah! Independence. :D :D :D
      These would be the separatists i heard about

      Digboi is a nice place. Not heard anything contradictory in years.
      Oil fields were there i thought, that is why i mentioned it.
      Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Aug 18,, 10:26.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        Sounds similar to what's going on in Balochistan wouldn't you say. Outsiders there are Punjabis too.

        Similar problems in Burma as well against Indians & Chinese. Again the same in Uganda when Amin kicked the Indians out.
        Yeah. The thing is the Government more or less backs down in India. Balochistan and PA are different matters altogether. It has been the primary tactic of the PA to flood Punjabi Sunnis in areas to make their domination hold, like for e.g., Balochistan or PoK, and now they frequently talk about 'referendum', forgetting the 1972 Shimla treaty. Referendum? Yeah, over your dead body jihadis. And nothing flows back into Balochistan, not for the Balochis, as far as I know.

        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        Didn't realise the RSS got in that early. They only got rehabilitated when the Janata govt came to power after being in the deep freeze since Gandhi's assassination.
        Stealth mode. :D

        After the emergency, not assassination.

        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        These would be the separatists i heard about
        Separatists? These are terrorists. Criminals of the highest order who killed hundreds of innocent men, women and children. F them. I know many, among them a guy, younger than me, whose father ULFA kidnapped. His family never got to see his dead body. His mom still wears sindoor on her forehead. My blood boils, when I remember these incidents.

        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        Oil fields were there i thought, that is why i mentioned it.
        Correct. Crude and refinery. Haven't visited that place though. But people say it's a very nice tourist spot. You heard about the NRC process?

        Edited: I forgot about Chinese & Pakistani state support to ULFA during its heydays. Some American too I'd assume?
        Last edited by Oracle; 14 Aug 18,, 13:48.
        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
          Yeah. The thing is the Government more or less backs down in India.
          So do Sikhs still have a controlling presence when tea is auctioned ? how has the influence of these 'outsider' Indians changed over the years.

          Balochistan and PA are different matters altogether. It has been the primary tactic of the PA to flood Punjabi Sunnis in areas to make their domination hold, like for e.g., Balochistan or PoK, and now they frequently talk about 'referendum', forgetting the 1972 Shimla treaty. Referendum? Yeah, over your dead body jihadis. And nothing flows back into Balochistan, not for the Balochis, as far as I know.
          That referendum thing only came out by the caretaker govt. It's as if nobody wanted to take any ownership. I wonder if the same Shimla treaty prevents us from repealing article 370. We've discussed it befre but never was the Shimla treaty mentioned in the same context.


          Stealth mode. :D

          After the emergency, not assassination.
          yes after emergency they got rejuvenated its just surprising they moved so quickly only a few years later and into Assam. You would know this better but i thought it occurred later maybe twenty years later.


          Separatists? These are terrorists. Criminals of the highest order who killed hundreds of innocent men, women and children. F them. I know many, among them a guy, younger than me, whose father ULFA kidnapped. His family never got to see his dead body. His mom still wears sindoor on her forehead. My blood boils, when I remember these incidents.
          Quite a messy battle where we had to recruit other terrorists to go after ULFA


          You heard about the NRC process?
          yes, still getting my head around it and there are calls to extend it to other states so the rest of the country as well

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            So do Sikhs still have a controlling presence when tea is auctioned ? how has the influence of these 'outsider' Indians changed over the years.
            No.

            Prominent Sikh business people were killed during the notorious regime of ULFA. Others who have been living for decades were so scared, that many moved back to Punjab, Delhi etc. It is however noteworthy to mention that a lot of those Sikhs assimilated to Assamese culture and used to celebrate Bihu and such. Then came the reign of SULFA which dealt a final blow to those people. All contracts, jobs, auctions were conducted with their blessing. My dad's colleague's brother wanted distributorship of a noted gas agency, and so they alongwith a local MLA went to meet a BJP political leader in Guwahati, during 1997-98. The dude almost got the agency, but for SULFA. The situation didn't trouble the saloon owner or the bus conductor, majority of whom were Biharis. Trouble was for people with money. Militancy set back Assam by 3 decades.

            There still is a heavy presence of Marwaris, Jains, some Punjabis and Sikhs, North Indians that is. The thing is, after the big fishes were killed or forced out of Assam, small fishes occupied that space and consolidated their business. Go to main markets of Guwahati like Pan Bazar or Paltan Bazar, the North Indian crowd controls it. Another thing you probably also noticed is that whenever outsider vs local debate starts, Biharis are the people who first get trampled. Mumbai, Assam or anywhere, they are the first ones to get beaten, their business burnt or killed. Biharis are very hard-working. If I start a business, I'd rather hire a Bihari or a Muslim, then locals.

            The perception that was bad early days, of 'outsider' Indians is negligible nowadays, and if something erupts, it is normal. By normal I mean some Biharis would be rounded up and beaten. I mean, and I am sorry to say this rather bluntly, but if you have followed regional politics, and there isn't a riot where 100 people are killed, then it is considered normal. The only issue right now is illegal immigrants from Bangladesh.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            That referendum thing only came out by the caretaker govt. It's as if nobody wanted to take any ownership. I wonder if the same Shimla treaty prevents us from repealing article 370. We've discussed it befre but never was the Shimla treaty mentioned in the same context.
            No.

            The Shimla Agreement ensured that Pak doesn't whine about Kashmir at international forums or with US/UK/Canada etc. It was supposed to be decided bilaterally. BJP needs a majority in Kashmir/LS/RS, and article 370 would go. On the same breath, look at our relations with US now. Pak sympathisers are getting jailed or blacklisted, while UK/Canada in disguise of human rights & freedom of speech, still pursues their cold war politics w.r.t India. They don't understand, India is still the same. Indians OTOH have become smarter, much much smarter. And lately, Indians have started to earn the mollah too.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            yes after emergency they got rejuvenated its just surprising they moved so quickly only a few years later and into Assam. You would know this better but i thought it occurred later maybe twenty years later.
            RSS is a cadre based organisation. VHP was there in the hill-station where I was born, before I was born. VHP is RSS's sister organization. In VHP, You'd find tribals there - Nagas/Kukis/Hrankhols who are Hindus even today.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            Quite a messy battle where we had to recruit other terrorists to go after ULFA
            Bodo militancy was created, and SULFA was used by Prafulla Mahanta to go after ULFA's family members, along with state Police and the para-military. India was strong at that time. It used to crush separatism/terrorism with an iron-fist. After Indira, sadly, we never had any leader with balls.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            yes, still getting my head around it and there are calls to extend it to other states so the rest of the country as well
            Of all the states and union territories, only Assam have a citizens register. And I have always said that NRC in only Assam doesn't fulfil its intended purpose. We can talk about this later through PM or maybe if you want to create another thread.
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              No.

              Prominent Sikh business people were killed during the notorious regime of ULFA. Others who have been living for decades were so scared, that many moved back to Punjab, Delhi etc. It is however noteworthy to mention that a lot of those Sikhs assimilated to Assamese culture and used to celebrate Bihu and such. Then came the reign of SULFA which dealt a final blow to those people. All contracts, jobs, auctions were conducted with their blessing. My dad's colleague's brother wanted distributorship of a noted gas agency, and so they alongwith a local MLA went to meet a BJP political leader in Guwahati, during 1997-98. The dude almost got the agency, but for SULFA. The situation didn't trouble the saloon owner or the bus conductor, majority of whom were Biharis. Trouble was for people with money. Militancy set back Assam by 3 decades.
              Worst thing to happen. Multiply that with the rest of the seven sisters and tell me how do you attract capital back now ? this is exactly what militants in Pakistan will do to CPEC

              See how long it took to deal with just in Assam

              There still is a heavy presence of Marwaris, Jains, some Punjabis and Sikhs, North Indians that is. The thing is, after the big fishes were killed or forced out of Assam, small fishes occupied that space and consolidated their business. Go to main markets of Guwahati like Pan Bazar or Paltan Bazar, the North Indian crowd controls it. Another thing you probably also noticed is that whenever outsider vs local debate starts, Biharis are the people who first get trampled. Mumbai, Assam or anywhere, they are the first ones to get beaten, their business burnt or killed. Biharis are very hard-working. If I start a business, I'd rather hire a Bihari or a Muslim, then locals.
              They are, all Biharis i'm come across from various walks of life. The local is the same here too. Night & day difference.

              The perception that was bad early days, of 'outsider' Indians is negligible nowadays, and if something erupts, it is normal. By normal I mean some Biharis would be rounded up and beaten. I mean, and I am sorry to say this rather bluntly, but if you have followed regional politics, and there isn't a riot where 100 people are killed, then it is considered normal. The only issue right now is illegal immigrants from Bangladesh.
              The new 'outsiders' ? they don't run the show like the sikhs back then though

              Bodo militancy was created, and SULFA was used by Prafulla Mahanta to go after ULFA's family members, along with state Police and the para-military. India was strong at that time. It used to crush separatism/terrorism with an iron-fist. After Indira, sadly, we never had any leader with balls.
              Media. Easier to stifle back then. You can say AFSPA takes care of this already but people are more connected these days. They will use the international community to hit back

              Of all the states and union territories, only Assam have a citizens register. And I have always said that NRC in only Assam doesn't fulfil its intended purpose. We can talk about this later through PM or maybe if you want to create another thread.
              It makes me a bit nervous, we've been lax to date. Am i going to get asked to show ID every time now.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                India's problem with the Maldives. Listen to what the cdr says. The Maldivians don't want us tracking the Chinese there. They want our security personnel stationed there out.

                Compare India after Independence to India today. Our political elite is so fascinated by the thought of a permanent seat in the UN, that they're letting a punk of a country bully us. Had I been anywhere close to ruling the power structure, India's foreign policy would have seen clashes on the ground. Right from the SCS to the IOR, and punks like Maldives, SLanka, Pakistan and other IOR littoral countries would have been right in the Indian camp, Chinese money or not. We have been punching far below our weight. It's time.
                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  Compare India after Independence to India today. Our political elite is so fascinated by the thought of a permanent seat in the UN, that they're letting a punk of a country bully us. Had I been anywhere close to ruling the power structure, India's foreign policy would have seen clashes on the ground. Right from the SCS to the IOR, and punks like Maldives, SLanka, Pakistan and other IOR littoral countries would have been right in the Indian camp, Chinese money or not. We have been punching far below our weight. It's time.
                  The panel was making the same point in not so many words. That with the Maldives we won't compromise on national security. The thing is you have a difficult situation there. Yameen has jailed judges and the opposition. This means he's very vulnerable to Chinese money like Rajapaksa was. 60% of Maldivian debt is Chinese.

                  They will be having elections next month there. If nothing changes then we will have to do something. Thing is we do this in other places already. In Sri lanka some believe we threw the election in 2015 in our favour. So the RAW stationed chief was sent back. In Nepal we've objected to certain clauses in their constitution that would disenfranchise Madhesis. These people would then leave and come to India or cause trouble at the border. We've uses economic coercion with them twice, during Rajiv's time and Modi in 2015. The Nepalis have gone full tilt anti-Indian as a result. Nasheed sits in India urging us to intervene. We can't do it the way he wants due to international repercussions. So something subtle is called for

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    The panel was making the same point in not so many words. That with the Maldives we won't compromise on national security. The thing is you have a difficult situation there. Yameen has jailed judges and the opposition. This means he's very vulnerable to Chinese money like Rajapaksa was. 60% of Maldivian debt is Chinese.

                    They will be having elections next month there. If nothing changes then we will have to do something. Thing is we do this in other places already. In Sri lanka some believe we threw the election in 2015 in our favour. So the RAW stationed chief was sent back. In Nepal we've objected to certain clauses in their constitution that would disenfranchise Madhesis. These people would then leave and come to India or cause trouble at the border. We've uses economic coercion with them twice, during Rajiv's time and Modi in 2015. The Nepalis have gone full tilt anti-Indian as a result. Nasheed sits in India urging us to intervene. We can't do it the way he wants due to international repercussions. So something subtle is called for
                    I didn't see the video (slow connection), I made an educated guess.

                    I understand your points. But then these are the job best left to diplomats. My point with Maldives is not only becoming a Chinese colony, but also Islamic Jihad. PA/ISI have opened the gates to their Jihad training centre to Maldivians. This thing should worry us, because Maldivians do not need a visa for travel to India for less than 90 days. See attached pic.

                    Maldives: militant Islamists on the rise

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Maldivian Visa.png
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                    PA/ISI have been recruiting other nationalities, just like David Headman Coley (Pak born, US citizen), to use them against terror attacks in India. Do we wake up when another 200 innocent people get slaughtered in Delhi or Mumbai. It might be Bangalore the next time. All islamic countries, should be required to obtain a valid visa for travel to India, even if that country is in India's good books. Our national security is our headache, and we have to deal with it in ways appropriate to us. Come to think of it, BJP government is no better than Congress.

                    Maldives should worry the US too. Diego Garcia is not far. How long before a boat laden with explosives sail backwards. Send a couple of warships and MARCOS and capture Yameen, then ask Nasheed to take over. We need to get over the mindset that we should only talk to constitutionally elected political leaders. India talked with Musharraf, so if a dictator suits us, we should support him.
                    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                    • Did you mention Diego Garcia ? If we're getting kicked out of the Maldives then indeed why not try for Diego Garcia

                      The only fly in the ointment here is Mauritius has a territorial dispute with the UK and by extension the US over the Chagos archipelago and we've voted with Mauritius in the UNGA

                      How Diego Garcia Can Play a Pivotal Role in America's Relationship with India | National Interest | Jul 01 2018

                      See how Americans do things compared to the Chinese CPEC

                      For over seventy-five years, DOD has been able to successfully operate in foreign countries because it makes use of local suppliers and host nation labor. That preference for local labor helps to solidify relationships between DOD and the host nation.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Aug 18,, 16:28.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        Did you mention Diego Garcia ? If we're getting kicked out of the Maldives then indeed why not try for Diego Garcia
                        I can't say I understand what you meant there. My point was - a jihadi boat laden with explosives that tries to attack US Naval assets in the waters off DG. Gets international coverage and immediate recruitment to jihadi ranks. A lot of Islamists dream of attacking US interests worldwide, and inside India.

                        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        The only fly in the ointment here is Mauritius has a territorial dispute with the UK and by extension the US over the Chagos islands and we've voted with Mauritius in the UNGA
                        I didn't like that vote frankly, but it gave India wriggle room to negotiate something, somewhere else. This is FP give and take. I think US-UK-India-Mauritius will come to terms on this island staying with the UK and being leased to the US.

                        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        What the Americans understood 70 years back, the Chinese are yet to learn.
                        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                        • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                          I can't say I understand what you meant there. My point was - a jihadi boat laden with explosives that tries to attack US Naval assets in the waters off DG. Gets international coverage and immediate recruitment to jihadi ranks. A lot of Islamists dream of attacking US interests worldwide, and inside India.
                          Yes i got that, i was trying to tie DG as another option in the IOR

                          I didn't like that vote frankly, but it gave India wriggle room to negotiate something, somewhere else. This is FP give and take. I think US-UK-India-Mauritius will come to terms on this island staying with the UK and being leased to the US.
                          That would be for the best

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            Yes i got that, i was trying to tie DG as another option in the IOR
                            DG is already a part of the logistics agreement (LEMOA) signed between India and US. All land, air and naval bases of both countries are. India signed the same with the French. India also have signed an agreement with Singapore for the Changi Naval base.
                            Last edited by Oracle; 15 Aug 18,, 20:39.
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                              DG is already a part of the logistics agreement (LEMOA) signed between India and US. All land, air and naval bases of both countries are. India signed the same with the French. India also have signed an agreement with Singapore for the Changi Naval base.
                              That's replenishment, the NI article is advocating for a stationed Indian presence on DG

                              It's so funny how times change, if you search the board you will find a story by Capt. LT that India was ready to do an ambulance mission on DG if Americans intervened in the '71 war. Ambulance is a one way suicide mission to take out DG.
                              Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Aug 18,, 22:24.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                That's replenishment, the NI article is advocating for a stationed Indian presence on DG
                                I think most of it is wordplay to allay the concerns of various opposition factions within the Indian establishment. In the future most treaties with the US and French will have what you've said in bold. That's the way to go about it if China has to be contained.

                                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                It's so funny how times change, if you search the board you will find a story by Capt. LT that India was ready to do an ambulance mission on DG if Americans intervened in the '71 war. Ambulance is a one way suicide mission to take out DG.
                                Yeah. Read it.
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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