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Stalin killed Netaji, Subramanian Swamy says
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That's a pretty admirable attempt at objectivity. But I feel it should be added that, if you disregard nationalist bias, ultimately we are talking about men who sought the ticket out of imperialist dominance of GB by throwing themselves at the feet of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan which are rightly viewed by US and UK historians as racialist imperialists par excellence and so the clarity of their vision and effectiveness as leaders are called into doubt, and having good intentions is not something that historians accept as a reason to heap praises on somebody.
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The disconnect we have seen between indian posters and others i feel arise from a few factors
1. In India, Bose is regarded as one of the founding father and we are well informed with his evolution into an ally of
the axis powers. Bose was impatient with the congress leadership and matters eventually reached an head that the congress
and he disowned each other in a bitter split. however Gandhi praised his efforts after he died.He is also mostly treated favourably in the
textbooks.
In india Bose and bhagat singh are respected for patriotism,initiative and inspiration even though some regard their methods as dubious.
So its like methods questionable but intent and vision appreciated. Atleast for some like me anyway
2. Allying with the axis powers and lack of success has made INA a vicious target. I noticed these when I started reading books from british historians from the british council
library.However it would be a disservice to the vision and ideals of bose to solely view through such a prism.
In India,there is a strong culture of anti imperialism.i deeply resent any justifcation of british rule or portuguese rule .Even I am no right winger , i feel a rage how can anyone be insensitive to justify slavery.This may explain attempts to disown or be indifferent the british indian army which fought for a colonial government and was loyal to the crown for "too long" according to some indian nationalists.Infact Nehru's hostile attitude to the army owed a huge deal to this. Its not easy answer - whether to honour those who were loyal to the empire.
3. not everyone in india shares the hatred for axis powers especially those with an aversion to western powers. There are no dearth of hitler fans in educated urban india who say the western powers manipulated history as victors.
Anti west attitudes can easily translate into pro Germany and pro japan attitudes.
i regard this as misguided.i am more aware of the scale of barbarity by Nazis especially and to a lesser extent japan.but many others are not.
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Originally posted by Blademaster View PostYou said prevented a civil war. Partition was a civil war.
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Nehru challenged the muslim league to show their strength.
The muslim league showed their ability to make trouble by direct action day in Calcutta and theaftermath which erupted into riots all over.
also muslim league was making inroads even into Punjab and nwfp.
so partition was agreed
1. to prevent a civil war
2. increasing loss of control over administration with quarrels between congress and ML, the british being hapless rulers ready to run away
3. in recognition of Islamic political traditions that gives importance to religious laws and a muslim ruler(incompatible with a one man one vote democracy).ofcourse they naively believed Pakistan would come back after a decade or so.
4 to give priority to a strong central state by integrating all states into the union(which was not a given at that time)
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Originally posted by lemontree View PostBose's efforts were no military success, but his efforts are acknowledged as they led to the ultimate aim of freedom from British colonial rule.
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india in general since 1857.
Britain left because they took stock that indian nationalism has grown strong enough and its allies in the indian adminstratration(ICS) and armed forces are increasingly unreliable.
different strands of nationalist movements-the predominant one led by congress,militancy (in bengal,Punjab,INA)- demonstrated and also contributed to further growth of indian nationalism that eventually dislodged british rule.
To use one incident to say one day the armed forces became nationalist and were ready to throw the british into the sea is fiction.In any case, even some british commanders like auchinleck and slim were in favour of indian independence
Rationally speaking bose's venture was quixotic and his choices questionable.
By the martial races theory certain regions like Punjab dominated the armed forces. The percentage
of Punjabi muslims was very high.
Most of them cared two hoots for indian nationalism. To build INA with such a large
percentage of unreliable men is never going to end pretty.
little wonder Japanese commander mutaguchi was not enamoured of the effectiveness of the INA .
Bose's methods were morally dubious without a doubt but politics makes for strange bedfellows.
he accepted Japan's help for pure expediency and not as a stooge but its difficult to see what he could have achieved eventually.
he is respected for his idealism and taking initiatives for indian independence,quixotic and morally questionable his venture mightbe.
The INA trial was a warning shot for any remaining ambition of british imperial rule without a doubt.but let's not make it bigger than what it is.
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What my countrymen are trying to say is that Bose is an icon who is worshipped in India.
We don't claim that he was a great military leader, but his attempts to seek a military solution are respected.
We don't claim that he was trying to win a war, but he was only seeking to free his motherland.
He failed as a military leader, but he was part of the same team that sought Indian independence.
Bose had first gone to Soviet Union and when he got no help from Stalin, he went to Germany. He did not even get an acknowledgement from Hitler when he tried to seek his assistance in 1941, in fact he was ignored. Just one battalion was created from Indian students and POWs, IR 950 (known as the Indian Legion). Did they do anything operational?....apart from some sabotage ops in Baluchistan,...nothing much.
Bose's efforts were no military success, but his efforts are acknowledged as they led to the ultimate aim of freedom from British colonial rule.
Will Indians feel bad if we got to know that he was murdered?....damn right Yes.
Why?..because most Indians respected the British for their sense of justice and fair play. When they left India, they were sent off with respect and decorum and not with hate.
But if we are told that the British held a grudge against Bose, then many would hold one against them too.
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Originally posted by Blademaster View PostYou said prevented a civil war. Partition was a civil war.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostNo the princes and principalities lost the rule and force in very short order. The GoI had nearly complete control over India by 1949 with few exceptions such as the Portuguese Goa territories.
In case, you missed it, Hitesh, those experiments, legally speaking, and I find this surprising with you being a lawyer, were NOT WAR CRIMES. India was NOT an occupied population with India accepting EVERYTHING from the British Indian Empire on 17 August, 1947.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostNo graves were hidden and the events were not erased from the history books. We just don't celebrate it the same way you did and demand of us to do.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostINA were also good guys too
As much as we detet Hitler and Stalin, we had to respect their abilities to mobolize two entire populations. Bose? Not even a wannabe.
Originally posted by Blademaster View Postand the soldiers of BIA sided with very bad guys too.
But you cannot bring yourself to admit that Albert Slim was the best General in WWII and that the BIA went from a defeated army to a war winning army in a matter of 10 months.
And Bose? What did he actually do? I mean seriously. What did he do? The INA was not his creation. It was Mohan Singh's and he actually devised the best strategy to win Indian independence.
Never mind the Japanese occupied islands, which speaks for themselves, what was Bose doing when the Japanese lost the invasion of India. I mean, why was he holding court with the IIL instead of saving his army?
And yet, you cannot bring yourself to examine Albert Slim. Just 10 months before, the BIA was kicked out of Burma. He took that same army and reversed the outcome of the war. Yeah, he was British but you can't turn around and respect what he did.
Instead, you want to tell me that Bose was this brilliant freedom fighter. Was he? He couldn't inspire a defeated army to join the winning Japanese.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 21 Jan 15,, 05:13.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostWar. Not Civil War.
My point is that India did not throw out everything lock stock and barrel and imposed Martial Law 15 August, 1947. Until India changed the laws, the old laws still had force, up to and including the Princes and their Principalities.
Kim Jong Ill is a hero in North Korea but that doesn't mean I believe that he was the first nuclear physicist who invented the anti-matter bomb.
In fact, the North Koreans are the only other peoples I know who erased an entire army from their history books up to and including hiding the graves of that army.
But that does not make anything the BIA did during WWII wrong. Not by ANY stretch of the imagination. The BIA were the good guys and like it or not, Bose and the INA sided with the bad guys. Very bad guys.
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The BIA were the good guys and like it or not, Bose and the INA sided with the bad guys. Very bad guys.
But this is a hot potato comment which 99% of us Indians will never agree to.
From the time we are in grade school we are taught that Netaji was a hero who fought the evil british raj.
The japanese were barely a footnote and I can recall no mention of the chinese at all.
His myth is ingrained as part of the freedom struggle.
I only learnt otherwise well into my adult years when I began reading history for myself and came across Slim's excellent memoir.
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Originally posted by Blademaster View PostNo it didn't. War broke out. Partition happened. Nearly a million people died.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostThen what's your point? You just admitted that India changed the laws, not inherited them and still practiced them.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostWell Bose did inspire independence in the Bengal region. Speak ill of Bose in that region and you can expect to find yourself in a hospital shortly. Bose is a hero in Bangladesh.
In fact, the North Koreans are the only other peoples I know who erased an entire army from their history books up to and including hiding the graves of that army.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostBecause at that time, Russia was not a threat. Was not geared up to face against Russia.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostSo indianization only occurred during WW2 when British were desperate for manpower, not out of their volition and free will.
But that does not make anything the BIA did during WWII wrong. Not by ANY stretch of the imagination. The BIA were the good guys and like it or not, Bose and the INA sided with the bad guys. Very bad guys.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostAnd prevented a civil war.
How is that any different from what I stated? This was not Vichy France that they just grabbed old Third Republic Laws and re-instated them. The old rules were stayed in place until India changed them.
Well, the obvious question is how did this happen? (I'm being sarcastic) Didn't Bose and the INA inspire Indian independence? Didn't the Muslim League and therefore, Muslim soldiers, followed Bose's dream?
Still doesn't change the fact that the EIC was ill equipped to handle Russia.
In 4 years? What did you expect? Only exceptional people make Field Grades so fast. And 4 years is way too short to teach new Generals Operational Art.
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Originally posted by Blademaster View PostAs I said before, the British passed a law knowing that India was going to be free whether there was a law or not granting independence. They just gave themselves a facesaving way out and Gandhi obliged them even though other members of Congress were saying that we don't need British permission. The Indian Naval Mutiny proved that.
The only reason why INC waited and let them passed a law was because of the obstinacy of JInnah and the Muslim League. If it wasn't for Jinnah, independence would have been achieved in 1945 or 1946 or even before that.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostSure... in the princedoms and kingdoms. Congress had to send in troops to enforce the law of the land which was the Indian version, not British. After all, there was great land reform and powers were taken away from princes and rulers. See the State of Hyderbad and how it was taken by force. As for British ruled territories, they had to kick out the tax collectors and revamp the IAS. Before the IAS was based on inheritance based on the anglicized bloodlines and zamindari bloodlines. India made it as a meritocracy and did away with inheritances and right by birth.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostOf course they acknowledged Mountbatten. He was the one that allowed the creation of Pakistan against Gandhi and Nehru's wishes.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostThen Russia was not a player in South Asia. Britain was the dominant power in South Asia.
Originally posted by Blademaster View Postyes a large majority of them only arosed to Lts and Captains. Rarely did they go up to Majors or Lt Cols.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostI'm speaking strictly within the confines of WWII and its results.
I said that they inherited everything. I didn't say they accepted everything. India took the entire British Indian Empire lock, stock, and barrel and then proceeded to discard and change things as she saw fit. Until new legislation and new policies were enacted, the old ones remained in force.
And? This was done legally. They made a legislation that said that the old legislation no longer applies. This still require acknowledging the old legislation had the power of law until they said it no longer did.
That does not mean that the old laws were not recognized before the consitution was written.
AND THAT required legal work. Not just grabbing the old law book and throwing it into the fire.
What the hell is this?
Indian Independence Act 1947 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The only reason why INC waited and let them passed a law was because of the obstinacy of JInnah and the Muslim League. If it wasn't for Jinnah, independence would have been achieved in 1945 or 1946 or even before that.
You mean to tell me the second the Brits left, Indian bureaucrats had zero power to collect revenue? Cops don't have laws to enforce? That it was a free for all?
But if facts are facts that Bose won independence for Pakistan as well, shouldn't they also acknowledge his contribution? After all, they acknolweged Mountbatten.
The Great Game was always about Central Asia.
Within the confines of WWII. I will grant you that it was British desperation since there wasn't enough Officers to go around but a hell of a lot of good Indian Officers were trained and battle hardened with the British.Last edited by Blademaster; 20 Jan 15,, 00:50.
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Originally posted by Blademaster View PostNo they are not. They are selective and deliberately twisted to support your assertions. There were many violent struggles.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostAs for laws, no India didn't adopt everything.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostFor one thing, they tossed out the mandate charter governing India.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostThey refused to declare the British monarchy as the head of state even though Pakistan did for a while. They created a new constitution that was the overriding authority.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostIf any law that was created before the Constitution and was not compatible, it was rendered null and void and ceased to have any effect.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostAnd no India did not gain independence through British law. There was no British law recognizing Indian independence. India was going to be independent. British just passed a law to feel good and high mighty about themselves even though they knew that they had no choice. In fact, British law did not allow for Indian independence before.
Indian Independence Act 1947 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostYes India's independence was defined by force through the threat of a massive and bloody revolution by the WW2 BIA. And no India did not inherit everything from Britain. For one thing, half of India was not under direct British control but made of small kingdoms and princedoms. They had their own laws.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostYour reading influenced by your bias, prejudices, and way of thinking. As for Pakistan not sharing the same view of Bose, I am not surprised. Why should they? They were the ones who were advocating for more muslim control and Bose didn't share that thinking at all.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostRussia never seriously moving down into South Asia until after 1850s especially after the Crimea War.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostOnly after great agitation and it wasn't exactly a stellar success. Look at wiki: Indianisation (British India) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaLast edited by Officer of Engineers; 20 Jan 15,, 00:22.
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostSorry, the historic facts are against you.
Yes India's independence was defined by force through the threat of a massive and bloody revolution by the WW2 BIA. And no India did not inherit everything from Britain. For one thing, half of India was not under direct British control but made of small kingdoms and princedoms. They had their own laws.
They're not my attempts. They're the reading of the facts. Here is another fact for you. Not all British India shared the same view of Bose. Pakistan certainly don't.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostSiberia was already under Russian control as with Northern Central Asia and the population in Siberia doubled with Russian onslaught by 1709. How is that not a chalenge?
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostQuote Originally Posted by Blademaster View Post
Yes at any other time, the British would have not allowed 2.3 million to sign up. It was only out of desperation and necessity that they allow a standing army of 2.3 million Indians.
Oh, it was far, far, far mroe than that. The British also decided to Indianized the Army, meaning, they decided to train Indian officers up to brigade commanders, giving the Indians a decent officer corps.
"Indianisation was considered a failure by the Indians, due to the refusal of the British Government to increase the extremely slow rate of induction and the reluctance of the British to accept Indian officers on an equal footing, both professionally and socially.[2] The scheme was suspended at the outbreak of the Second World War, at which point only a handful of military units had been Indianised. The process was never reintroduced, as there was a wartime influx of Emergency Commissioned Officers, posted into all units. In 1947, India became independent, and Indian officers immediately became eligible to fill senior appointments, with accelerated promotion."Last edited by Blademaster; 20 Jan 15,, 00:02.
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Originally posted by Blademaster View PostThere was no Russian threat until the early 1800s when EIC already had India well under control with its vast resources. Yes, EIC was equipped to take on the Russians. After all, they just took down the mighty Tipu Sultan and rendered the Mughals ineffective.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostYes at any other time, the British would have not allowed 2.3 million to sign up. It was only out of desperation and necessity that they allow a standing army of 2.3 million Indians.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostAt any other time, it would have meant an instant loss of control because it meant that the army could be used to control India and India would be unified as a whole and once that army decided to change its loyalty, the British would be out of luck.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostGandhi and Congress saw that and were the first one to capitalize on that and used Bose. Bose, unwittingly or wittingly, played as the bad guy. Gandhi and Congress built their leadership on those men. How else did you think those men quickly change their loyalty once the war ended? How quickly the Indian Naval Mutiny ended once Congress said no?
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostBut the INA did scare the British for a time.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostThe 1948 war beg to differ.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostMay be the source material but at least he made it long lasting.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostIt takes two to tango not one.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostYou underestimate his effect when he was alive.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostBritain couldn't say anything to Deng Pi when he threatened to march all the way to Hong Kong and take it.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostThey meekly agreed to set a time for a handover. Contrast with the time when Britain marched all the way to Beijing and demanded Hong Kong with the aid of its Indian troops. What does that tell you?
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostYou may get the title but it doesn't mean you get the goods. If you were not British enough, you could find yourself easily out on the street. A paper is not enough. You had to be one of their own and that means converting to British ways and culture.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostSometimes the local crime lord wins sometimes it doesn't win. But the end result was that the British got their way.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostBritain just went from a world superpower to a supporting player in the space of 6 years. That's huge. Same thing with France. With India declaring independence, other occupied territories started declaring their independence and the tide was unstoppable. Pretty soon Britain and France lost their vast overseas land holdings and their source of raw materials and cheap manpower.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostOk then your reference to the Gandhi family didn't make sense in the first place.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostBose was not gonna let Japanese rule India either. Japan was a means to an end.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostNo Bose was not that willing to do as you suggested.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostAs for the Japanese atrocities, let me bring up the Bengal famine. The British killed a lot more Indians than the Japanese ever could hope for and don't tell me that this was a mismanagement policy issue. That is bullshit. They very well knew what was going on and did it anyway. Again it goes to my original point in the very beginning which you have so obliquely ignored.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostBIA chose the lesser evil out of two evils. Bose thought that the Japanese was the lesser of two evils considering that the British has killed and tortured far more Indians than Japanese ever did. Bose didn't see that at the end of the war India could be free of British. But WW2 BIA did after Gandhi and Congress promised them that there would be an independent India very soon.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostWhy did Gandhi and Congress allow the British Crown to kill off 6 million Bengalis with its grossly negligent management policies?
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostIt is the splitting of hairs that you engage in that leads me to question your sincerity of your arguments. I am sorry but the Indians were not British subjects. They were occupied by the British and therefore an occupied population. If you want to make that argument, I can make the dubious and flimsy equivalent argument that those subjects were German subjects because Germany annexed those territories and any subjects found therein automatically became citizens of Germany, i.e., not an occupied population and therefore not war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Sorry, the historic facts are against you.
Originally posted by Blademaster View PostYour attempts of alleviating and differentiating British actions and atrocities from war crimes is not going to persuade me anything further.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 19 Jan 15,, 23:26.
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