Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Stalin killed Netaji, Subramanian Swamy says

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    WRONG. Operation BARBAROSSA was his baby and his baby alone. You lack so much knowledge about WWII, even India during WWII that you're making assumptions that do not bore on facts.
    Thats what I am saying, victorious write the history. USA conquered Germany and Japan, so wrote histories according to her convenience. But USA didn't conquer India, so can't write history for India according to USA's convenience.
    And if Hitler was only responsible for Barbarossa and not Holocaust, there would be many Hitler sympathizers. But, it is quite strange, when Hirohito had the authority to stop the crimes but didn't, why is he not held responsible? Quite nonsense thing to say.

    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Indira wasn't even in power then and Mahatma Gandhi did not signed an alliance with the IJE.
    I am talking about intentions, Indira was a patriot same as Bose, both made USA their enemies (which was again, I would say from my perspective USA's own doing) but one came out victorious while the other was martyred. Now, since we live in a world where we believe in deontological ethics rather than following consequentialism, both were great leaders for India. That was my point and not that Mahatma Gandhi didn't sign a pact with IJE.
    Last edited by popillol; 12 Jan 15,, 18:13.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by popillol View Post
      I am not saying it is USA's fault. I am just saying that USA made a decision and made enemies in that process. USA's enemy (Bose) turned out not to be a great force but that doesn't belittle his bravery and intentions.
      You did mean it was US' fault. Read your previous post. US is the world's police? They have taken a responsibility to safeguard India's interests? And if so, why? Remember how we turned up after 1947, the Non-Aligned shit and stuff. US was there, our leaders turned their backs on them, what could have been the best for us. It's our fault. Our politicians led us down. Shallow vision.

      US didn't make any decision that made Bose or India a US enemy during WWII. Bose, well down that list was probably grass in the food chain of a meat-eater. Not important enough to spend resources. Although, I'd admit Bose' courage. But courage in the wrong company is foolishness.

      Bose didn't turn up to be a great force. No one's sure if he had a funeral or crows feasted on him.
      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Oracle View Post
        You did mean it was US' fault. Read your previous post. US is the world's police? They have taken a responsibility to safeguard India's interests? And if so, why? Remember how we turned up after 1947, the Non-Aligned shit and stuff. US was there, our leaders turned their backs on them, what could have been the best for us. It's our fault. Our politicians led us down. Shallow vision.

        US didn't make any decision that made Bose or India a US enemy during WWII. Bose, well down that list was probably grass in the food chain of a meat-eater. Not important enough to spend resources. Although, I'd admit Bose' courage. But courage in the wrong company is foolishness.

        Bose didn't turn up to be a great force. No one's sure if he had a funeral or crows feasted on him.
        OoE said the punches things and then that Bose made USA its enemy. USA indirectly meddled with Indian independence fight against British. That is the reason it was Bose'e enemy and not because USA is world's police. There is difference between a fault (done by mistake) which I am not saying and making a decision intentionally, which I am saying. (That USA intentionally made Bose her enemy and that it was not USA's "fault")
        Getting in the USA camp required considerable military spending at that time, not right for India at that time. Though that is off-topic.
        Please tell me, if the USA gave a good company to Bose against the British at that time apart from some wordings. Sometimes you don't get much choice.
        I wouldn't care if crows feast on your body when you are dead or your loved ones give you a proper funeral, but I do care about what happened to Bose.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by popillol View Post
          Thats what I am saying, victorious write the history. USA conquered Germany and Japan, so wrote histories according to her convenience. But USA didn't conquer India, so can't write history for India according to USA's convenience.
          And if Hitler was only responsible for Barbarossa and not Holocaust, there would be many Hitler sympathizers. But, it is quite strange, when Hirohito had the authority to stop the crimes but didn't, why is he not held responsible? Quite nonsense thing to say.
          Bose knew the IJA were shooting Indian POWs and eating them. Ironic?

          Originally posted by popillol View Post
          I am talking about intentions, Indira was a patriot same as Bose, both made USA their enemies (which was again, I would say from my perspective USA's own doing) but one came out victorious while the other was martyred. Now, since we live in a world where we believe in deontological ethics rather than following consequentialism, both were great leaders for India. That was my point and not that Mahatma Gandhi didn't sign a pact with IJE.
          Indira made US an enemy? A country has to go to lengths to make US an enemy and fear retribution. India during Indira? Not so much.
          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by popillol View Post
            OoE said the punches things and then that Bose made USA its enemy.
            Bose did make US an enemy by raising troops against the British. It's common sense. It was WWII. But US didn't reciprocate that well, else Bose would surely have gone to the wolves, if not the crows.

            Originally posted by popillol View Post
            USA indirectly meddled with Indian independence fight against British.
            What shit you smoke or books you read that I haven't? US didn't interfere in anything, directly or indirectly. After Pearl Harbor they had bigger fish to fry. What did I say in post # 42?

            Originally posted by popillol View Post
            That is the reason it was Bose'e enemy and not because USA is world's police. There is difference between a fault (done by mistake) which I am not saying and making a decision intentionally, which I am saying. (That USA intentionally made Bose her enemy and that it was not USA's "fault")
            Debunked.

            Originally posted by popillol View Post
            Getting in the USA camp required considerable military spending at that time, not right for India at that time.
            Pakistan was richer than India?

            Originally posted by popillol View Post
            Though that is off-topic.
            Please tell me, if the USA gave a good company to Bose against the British at that time apart from some wordings. Sometimes you don't get much choice.
            Why would the Americans?

            Originally posted by popillol View Post
            I wouldn't care if crows feast on your body when you are dead or your loved ones give you a proper funeral, but I do care about what happened to Bose.
            You certainly do not, your ego does. If you did care, you'd have gone at lengths filing an RTI or a PIL in the Apex court, or read damn History.
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              Bose knew the IJA were shooting Indian POWs and eating them. Ironic?
              And INA escaped this butchery and Bose was able to make an attempt to fight for India. Two shots with one arrow. And this more or less states that Bose was not a Japanese stooge. You can read Bose's character, he was famous for his patriotism before INA came into being.

              Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              Indira made US an enemy? A country has to go to lengths to make US an enemy and fear retribution. India during Indira? Not so much.
              What would you call a nation who threatens you with nukes and prevents you from achieving your nation's objectives?
              Atleast the Americans call such a behaviour as that of an enemy. Example: Bose threatened USA's objectives by launching an attack against the British undermining USA's war-time objectives though Bose never attacked USA! Same goes for USA's actions during 1971.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                Bose did make US an enemy by raising troops against the British. It's common sense. It was WWII. But US didn't reciprocate that well, else Bose would surely have gone to the wolves, if not the crows.
                Told you already the difference between fault and intentionally doing it.

                Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                What shit you smoke or books you read that I haven't? US didn't interfere in anything, directly or indirectly. After Pearl Harbor they had bigger fish to fry. What did I say in post # 42?
                The Allied fought as one, or did they have different strategic objectives?


                Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                Pakistan was richer than India?
                Yet, it spent much on military. A waste of resources. Again off-topic.

                Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                Why would the Americans?
                So, they shouldn't mind being seen as an enemy. They fought with the British as allies.

                Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                You certainly do not, your ego does. If you did care, you'd have gone at lengths filing an RTI or a PIL in the Apex court, or read damn History.
                Don't you know its classified. And besides, I don't jump with glee at the news of his death or say that crows feasted on his body casually.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by popillol View Post
                  Thats what I am saying, victorious write the history.
                  Then, there are those of us who studied the war and knows what the reality is.

                  Originally posted by popillol View Post
                  USA conquered Germany
                  No, she did not. The USSR did.

                  Originally posted by popillol View Post
                  and Japan, so wrote histories according to her convenience.
                  No, she did conquered Japan. She bombed her to smitherenes and the Japanese surrendered. There is a difference. A BIG DIFFERENCE.

                  Originally posted by popillol View Post
                  But USA didn't conquer India, so can't write history for India according to USA's convenience.
                  Ask any American on the street who Bose is and he will give you a blank stare. Hell, ask any Japanese right wing militarist who Bose is and he will also give you a blank stare.

                  But that does not change the FACTS one single iota. The INA sided with the IJE and fought in Burma where British, British Indian, Australian, American, and Chinese forces were fighting side by side against the Japanese. According to the Geneva Conventions, Bose and the INA WERE THE ENEMY COMBATTANT. Those are the legal facts whether you like them or not.

                  Originally posted by popillol View Post
                  And if Hitler was only responsible for Barbarossa and not Holocaust, there would be many Hitler sympathizers.
                  What the hell are you pulling red herrings out of your ass for? What has this got to do with anything that soldiers on both sides refused to accept each other surrender and fought/killed to the last man?

                  And FYI, Hitler was never punished.

                  Originally posted by popillol View Post
                  But, it is quite strange, when Hirohito had the authority to stop the crimes but didn't, why is he not held responsible?
                  Because he was winning when those crimes happenned.

                  Originally posted by popillol View Post
                  Quite nonsense thing to say.
                  And Hirohito was villified just as Bose is villified and never bought to trial.

                  Originally posted by popillol View Post
                  I am talking about intentions, Indira was a patriot same as Bose, both made USA their enemies (which was again, I would say from my perspective USA's own doing) but one came out victorious while the other was martyred.
                  Victorious? You've got some wierd definition. At best, Indira won brownie points at home. Changed the strategic picture absolutely zero vis-a-vi the US.

                  Originally posted by popillol View Post
                  Now, since we live in a world where we believe in deontological ethics rather than following consequentialism, both were great leaders for India. That was my point and not that Mahatma Gandhi didn't sign a pact with IJE.
                  That is the ONLY point. Mahatma Gandhi did not declared himself the enemy of the US. And legally speaking, neither did he declared himself the enemy of the British Empire. His "Quit India" speech at the time was protected under British Indian Law. At no time did he nor Congress campaigned against the war.
                  Chimo

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by popillol View Post
                    And INA escaped this butchery and Bose was able to make an attempt to fight for India. Two shots with one arrow. And this more or less states that Bose was not a Japanese stooge.
                    What of the Andamen Islands?

                    Japanese occupation of the Andaman Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                    Let's be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR ABOUT ONE THING. The Japanese jailed and tortured members of Bose's own India Independence League. The man clearly could not even protect his own people, let alone Indian citizens.

                    Indian citizens, under the "rule of The Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind," were forced into slave labour, forced into brothels as comfort women, ie raped. His GG, AD Loganathan, could not stop the Homfreyganj massacre.

                    Maybe you want to call him patriot. Everybody else, including the Japanese have another name. Stooge.
                    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 12 Jan 15,, 20:29.
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                      Then, there are those of us who studied the war and knows what the reality is.

                      No, she did not. The USSR did.

                      No, she did conquered Japan. She bombed her to smitherenes and the Japanese surrendered. There is a difference. A BIG DIFFERENCE.

                      Ask any American on the street who Bose is and he will give you a blank stare. Hell, ask any Japanese right wing militarist who Bose is and he will also give you a blank stare.

                      But that does not change the FACTS one single iota. The INA sided with the IJE and fought in Burma where British, British Indian, Australian, American, and Chinese forces were fighting side by side against the Japanese. According to the Geneva Conventions, Bose and the INA WERE THE ENEMY COMBATTANT. Those are the legal facts whether you like them or not.

                      What the hell are you pulling red herrings out of your ass for? What has this got to do with anything that soldiers on both sides refused to accept each other surrender and fought/killed to the last man?

                      And FYI, Hitler was never punished.

                      Because he was winning when those crimes happenned.

                      And Hirohito was villified just as Bose is villified and never bought to trial.

                      Victorious? You've got some wierd definition. At best, Indira won brownie points at home. Changed the strategic picture absolutely zero vis-a-vi the US.

                      That is the ONLY point. Mahatma Gandhi did not declared himself the enemy of the US. And legally speaking, neither did he declared himself the enemy of the British Empire. His "Quit India" speech at the time was protected under British Indian Law. At no time did he nor Congress campaigned against the war.
                      To free India, Bose had to go against the British. Gandhi all by himself could not have freed India. The Germans made it possible indirectly for India. Not much options for Bose you see. And the British were criminals for their actions in India.

                      Hirohito signed all the documents, he was AWARE and yet gave HIS AUTHORITY. Why wasn't he charged with class A war crimes? You approve terrible things to happen under you, you are responsible for it. Why was there not even a trial held against him?

                      Indira Gandhi completed her objectives of creating Bangladesh. She succeeded. Her objective was not altering strategic position vis-a-vis USA. Yet, USA acted like an enemy but failed to help her ally - Pakistan, despite its obligation to as a part of CENTO. Meeting your objectives is considered victory.

                      Had it not been for WW2, Mahatma Gandhi could have only got Dominion status to India by fighting within British laws.
                      Last edited by popillol; 12 Jan 15,, 21:00.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        What of the Andamen Islands?

                        Japanese occupation of the Andaman Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                        Let's be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR ABOUT ONE THING. The Japanese jailed and tortured members of Bose's own India Independence League. The man clearly could not even protect his own people, let alone Indian citizens.

                        Indian citizens, under the "rule of The Arzi Hukumat-e-Azad Hind," were forced into slave labour, forced into brothels as comfort women, ie raped. His GG, AD Loganathan, could not stop the Homfreyganj massacre.

                        Maybe you want to call him patriot. Everybody else, including the Japanese have another name. Stooge.
                        As is clearly stated in the wiki article, Bose was not aware of the atrocities. And he was trying to get help from wherever he could. He had to fight his enemy one at a time. He never had plenty of resources that he could fight British and the Japanese at the same time. And as I stated before, USA didn't send any troops to root out the British, and then wants nobody to fight against it at the same time.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by popillol View Post
                          To free India, Bose had to go against the British. Gandhi all by himself could not have freed India.
                          Could have fooled me with telling the RIN go back to their ships.

                          Originally posted by popillol View Post
                          The Germans made it possible indirectly for India.
                          No, they didn't. That's why Bose went to Japan.

                          Originally posted by popillol View Post
                          Not much options for Bose you see.
                          For Bose? No. He's not a military man. He did not have the training to see the options before him and there were viable options without siding with the Japanese.

                          Originally posted by popillol View Post
                          And the British were criminals for their actions in India.
                          Not disputing that. You have grievances. A lot are legitimate. But that does not change the fact that Japan was far more terrible. Ghandi was put in jail for QUIT INDIA. The Japanese drum fake charges just so that they could have live bayonet training.

                          Originally posted by popillol View Post
                          Hirohito signed all the documents, he was AWARE and yet gave HIS AUTHORITY. Why wasn't he charged with class A war crimes? You approve terrible things to happen under you, you are responsible for it. Why was there not even a trial held against him?
                          Again, who cares? We are talking on how the war was conducted. Mercy was neither asked nor given.

                          Originally posted by popillol View Post
                          Indira Gandhi completed her objectives of creating Bangladesh. She succeeded. Her objective was not altering strategic position vis-a-vis USA. Yet, USA acted like an enemy but failed to help her ally - Pakistan. Meeting your objectives is considered victory.
                          Against Pakistan. Not against the US.
                          Chimo

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by popillol View Post
                            As is clearly stated in the wiki article, Bose was not aware of the atrocities. And he was trying to get help from wherever he could. He had to fight his enemy one at a time. He never had plenty of resources that he could fight British and the Japanese at the same time. And as I stated before, USA didn't send any troops to root out the British, and then wants nobody to fight against it at the same time.
                            Oh bullshit. His GG resigned. Tell me that Bose didn't asked why?
                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              Could have fooled me with telling the RIN go back to their ships.

                              No, they didn't. That's why Bose went to Japan.
                              I meant Germans reducing UK to second rate power. Without that, Gandhi fighting under British laws could have got at max Dominion status for India.

                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              For Bose? No. He's not a military man. He did not have the training to see the options before him and there were viable options without siding with the Japanese.
                              What were they? The Britishers had backtracked after the First World War too.

                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              Again, who cares? We are talking on how the war was conducted. Mercy was neither asked nor given.
                              This is the strangest point from you.
                              If nobody cared, why were there such a large number of trials held for other Japanese criminals?

                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              Against Pakistan. Not against the US.
                              Bose also never fought against USA, just an ally of USA. Just like Indira Gandhi never fought against USA just an ally of USA (CENTO).

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by popillol View Post
                                I meant Germans reducing UK to second rate power.
                                Great Britain was NOT reduced to a 2nd rate power. She was still far more than capable of launching offensives of her choosing and she won both the Battle of the Atlantic and the Battle of Britain.

                                Originally posted by popillol View Post
                                Without that, Gandhi fighting under British laws could have got at max Dominion status for India.
                                And shift the capital of the British Empire from London to Dehli ... but that is another thread.

                                Originally posted by popillol View Post
                                What were they? The Britishers had backtracked after the First World War too.
                                How about just the easiest one? Convince British Indian soldiers to stay at home, not to join up. What's the Brits going to do? Send an army? From where?

                                Originally posted by popillol View Post
                                This is the strangest point from you.
                                Because you're getting sidetracked from the reasons to the actual conduct of the war.

                                Originally posted by popillol View Post
                                If nobody cared, why were there such a large number of trials held for other Japanese criminals?
                                To save Japan from extreme punishing occupation. To sate American, Chinese, British, Korean, and Australian blood lust.

                                Originally posted by popillol View Post
                                Bose also never fought against USA, just an ally of USA.
                                Yes, he did. The INA actively sought to use Burma as the spring board into India and to deny Burma from the Allies which was of vital importance to keep China in the war.

                                Originally posted by popillol View Post
                                Just like Indira Gandhi never fought against USA just an ally of USA (CENTO).
                                The US was not a member of CENTO.
                                Chimo

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X