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  • Blademaster
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    I am discussing this within context of WWII. The Brits did not have another army to quell India and take on Germany and Japan at the same time.

    Gandhi and Congress read Cripps right. He came begging with a beggars bowl. To seek co-operation when all the cards were in Indian hands. They needed the British Indian Army and Indians are well capable of denying that army to London. The only thing that they can offer is to give India her self determination peacefully.
    And you forgot something else in that bargain. Gandhi and Congress essentially told BIA that they would be accepted afterwards as long as they reject British crown and reject all glories associated with British crown. BIA did that willingly and peacefully and became IA and India celebrated IA's history not BIA's history. Again this was a choice made by the soldiers of BIA and which the people of India demanded and BIA accepted. So for the last time, fuck off and stop cribbing about India not respecting BIA's sacrifices. India did, just not under the banner of BIA but under the banner of IA. If you can't understand it, then it is your fucking problem, not ours.

    The House of Windsor is German. Prince Phillip is Greek. Dianna dated a Pakistani and an Eygtian. They're not as closed as you think.
    Who the fuck gives a shit. They chose to become British so they are british in our eyes. Doesn't matter if they have Indian ancestry or not. To become prince and princesses and the royal crown, you have to become British. That was the price and we fucking said "hell no motherfucking way" Nehru was the closest and we could barely tolerate him and he wasn't our first choice. He was forced upon us by Gandhi and that was the last time somebody tried to emulate British ways. Even Indira Gandhi knew that and totally reject all English customs and mannerisms.

    The context is the Indian domination of the British Empire, shifting the centre of power from London to Dehli.
    There was no shift. To allow that shift meant allowing a new class of rulers, only british people just like it happened in South Africa. India would have seen days of apartheid if India had gone down as you suggested. Yeah fucking right we were gonna stand by and allow that to happen.

    Palestine did it.
    Nobody wanted Palestine. It was essentially worthless.

    France was knocked out of the war and was not a key player during the war. India was.
    Actually free France could have made a difference to the war if she was allowed to but Churchill saw to that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blademaster
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    No, they didn't conquered it. They got stuck with it with the mess of the British India Company and your various principalities trying to take advantage of the BIC's mercenary operations.
    I am sorry but that is totally a revisionist version of history designed to make Britain look better and we as Indians strongly resent that very much.

    Because they saved your ass.
    Only after Gandhi and INC told them that there was a way out with Indian independence.

    He's not innocent. If you're asking do I think that he should be shot, yes, whole heartily but that is NOT what happenned and trying to substitute what you want for the facts is complete dishonesty.
    And neither was Churchill. He bombed an ally and sank her fleet even though that fleet was trying to escape from the clutches of Nazi. He let Nazi bomb his own town even though he knew he could have warn the people to take shelter. Under his watch, British soldiers carried out atrocities that were considered war crimes in the Nuremburg trials and they didn't get punished for that. Neither was FDR that innocent. See the Japanese-American internment camps. Rapes happened in those camps. Check out De Gaulle's actions during WWII and you will easily find that he was not so innocent either. Neither was Stalin. So what's your point?

    And here you go trying to change the subject when the facts don't give you support. The Americans would be idiots to support Bose.
    But they would be idiots for telling India that Bose is a monster and a bastard as such as you are doing, indicating that they would be supporting British rule.

    That's fine. I will.
    For the last time, after the Indian Naval Mutiny, the BIA stopped being your brothers and sisters and became our brothers and sisters. As part of that transformation, the price was that they forget any contributions they made in WWII and we forget their past transgressions and they willingly and fully paid that price voluntarily and in return, we called them the IA and accepted them as ours.

    So if you want to honor your brothers and sisters then do so but remember, we will remember them as the tools of the British Empire and their method of oppression. So continue to celebrate and honor them and we will remember you as celebrating the occupation and oppression of the Indian people. You rarely see the IA celebrate certain events of their history because they know that they are now representing a free and independent nation, not the British crown. You do and will be seen under such views.

    Again, you don't know the facts. The Americans were damned busy with something called Vietnam. They couldn't take on India even if they wanted to.
    So what? India took advantage of that just as Britain took advantage of the fragmentation of the Indian subcontinent and conquered India. You didn't begrudge Britain for that so you should not begrudge India for taking advantage of America being busy in Vietnam.

    I am discussing the history. What actually happenned and what it meant. Not what I wanted to happen and then trying to shove that fiction down everyone's throat.
    Bullshit!! You wanted us to remember BIA the way you want them to be remembered. So yes you are trying to shove that BS fiction down our throats and we strongly resent that very much.
    Last edited by Blademaster; 14 Jan 15,, 15:00.

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  • Blademaster
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    That's just it. The West doesn't even know him. In the scheme of things, the INA did not rate. While there was a concern amongst the British, Kawabe and the IJA was easily a 100 times more important.

    By siding with the 2nd worst colonial power in the 20th Century? Bose is limited to India. Not even Japan knows or cares about him.
    Then don't get mad for India not caring about BIA before 1946 when BIA actively started working for India's interests. By your standards, if USA, Britain or Japan didn't care about Indian independence, then why should India care about what America, British, or Japanese think, or for that matter, what you think?

    As you basically told popiloi to fuck off for respecting Bose and IJA, so are many Indians telling you to fuck off for dissing Indian freedom fighters. Leave it at that.

    Leave a comment:


  • popillol
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    This says a lot. You are a fucking idiot! The BIA saved you from the IJE and you have absolutely zero clue what that meant! This being the WAB and not a BJP mouthpiece, I will say this. You did not deserve what the BIA has done for you, you fucking idiot!

    Oh btw, VSDOC, fuck you!
    BIA saved India, but could have done the same by joining with Bose. Would have been independence heroes too. I am not saying that BIA's effort was not required, on the contrary India required it with all its might. I am just saying BIA didn't give preference to India's independence. Why couldn't they join forces with Bose and stop him from going over to the Japanese?
    If BIA soldiers should get Bharat Ratna, they should have also fought for India's independence. By doing this nobody stopped them from decimating the Japanese.

    Are you saying that I am vsdoc? Because I am not.

    And I am not praising the BJP or the foolish acts of RSS, why are you accusing me of being a BJP mouthpiece?
    Last edited by popillol; 14 Jan 15,, 08:53.

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  • anil
    replied
    OoE,

    Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote.

    I wasn't presenting bose as a hero to the west (he is actually the opposite of a hero for the west)
    Nor was I advocating for any history lessons on him in any textbooks outside india

    I was talking specifically to indians

    Leave a comment:


  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by popillol View Post
    And that is the precise reason why BIA is not remebered in India. They fought for the British crown. And then you lament that Indians do not honour/remember them.
    This says a lot. You are a fucking idiot! The BIA saved you from the IJE and you have absolutely zero clue what that meant! This being the WAB and not a BJP mouthpiece, I will say this. You did not deserve what the BIA has done for you, you fucking idiot!

    Oh btw, VSDOC, fuck you!
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 14 Jan 15,, 06:39.

    Leave a comment:


  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    Cripps Mission was in 42, after the war began (and it wasn't going very well at the time). Why do you think I called WW2 a godsend?
    I am discussing this within context of WWII. The Brits did not have another army to quell India and take on Germany and Japan at the same time.

    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    And Cripps only promised Dominion status, not independence after the war. We had only his word that it would happen. The Brits could have changed their mind depending on how and when the war ended. And it wouldn't even have come to this, if WW2 hadn't hapened. The ststua quo of the 20's and 30's would have continued.
    Gandhi and Congress read Cripps right. He came begging with a beggars bowl. To seek co-operation when all the cards were in Indian hands. They needed the British Indian Army and Indians are well capable of denying that army to London. The only thing that they can offer is to give India her self determination peacefully.

    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    So one of his ancestors slept with a housekeeper. What does that prove? You can't jump from that to Indian Princesses marrying into the Royal family.
    The House of Windsor is German. Prince Phillip is Greek. Dianna dated a Pakistani and an Eygtian. They're not as closed as you think.

    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    I'm not sure what that would accomplish anyway as far as Indian Independence was concerned.
    The context is the Indian domination of the British Empire, shifting the centre of power from London to Dehli.

    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    There were others who tried that. British power in India had been cemented over a hundred years. The number of collaborators was huge. Not surprising considering the economic situation and the fact that government, law-enforcement and military jobs paid far better than anything else. Armed resistance movements could never have been as successful as the ones in France and other countries newly occupied by the Germans. Gandhi and the INC being opposed to any armed resistance made things worse.
    Palestine did it.

    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    What Bose tried was no different from what Degaulle did. His own country was occupied by a foreign power. Some of his countrymen were collaborating with the enemy (the number was much higher in India for reasons stated above). So he decided to take the help of the enemy of that occupying power to invade his own country. Unfortunately, the only enemy avaiable were the Japanese, whose intentions (we now know) were different from what they professed to Bose and who were ultimately not strong enough to beat the British.
    France was knocked out of the war and was not a key player during the war. India was.

    Leave a comment:


  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by popillol View Post
    Still, the "empire" will essentially be a British one. They conquered it.
    No, they didn't conquered it. They got stuck with it with the mess of the British India Company and your various principalities trying to take advantage of the BIC's mercenary operations.

    Originally posted by popillol View Post
    And that is the precise reason why BIA is not remebered in India. They fought for the British crown. And then you lament that Indians do not honour/remember them.
    Because they saved your ass.

    Originally posted by popillol View Post
    Really can't see how Hirohito is innocent to you. Will have to research on him.
    He's not innocent. If you're asking do I think that he should be shot, yes, whole heartily but that is NOT what happenned and trying to substitute what you want for the facts is complete dishonesty.

    Originally posted by popillol View Post
    So, essentially BIA had British masters.
    And here you go trying to change the subject when the facts don't give you support. The Americans would be idiots to support Bose.

    Originally posted by popillol View Post
    So sorry to say they will not be honoured in India.
    That's fine. I will.

    Originally posted by popillol View Post
    The Americans were not able to budge Indira because she had decent backing unlike Bose.
    Again, you don't know the facts. The Americans were damned busy with something called Vietnam. They couldn't take on India even if they wanted to.

    Originally posted by popillol View Post
    And you said in post #16, "Hitler and Hirohito" implying that you hold Hirohito to be the primary person responsible for the atrocoties still when talked about his trials you say who cares?!!! Really can't understand you.
    I am discussing the history. What actually happenned and what it meant. Not what I wanted to happen and then trying to shove that fiction down everyone's throat.

    Leave a comment:


  • Firestorm
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    The Cripps mission told everyone that the Brits had nothing left but looking for a way out.
    Cripps Mission was in 42, after the war began (and it wasn't going very well at the time). Why do you think I called WW2 a godsend?

    And Cripps only promised Dominion status, not independence after the war. We had only his word that it would happen. The Brits could have changed their mind depending on how and when the war ended. And it wouldn't even have come to this, if WW2 hadn't hapened. The ststua quo of the 20's and 30's would have continued.

    DNA tests show Duke of Cambridge 'has Indian ancestry' - Telegraph
    So one of his ancestors slept with a housekeeper. What does that prove? You can't jump from that to Indian Princesses marrying into the Royal family. I'm not sure what that would accomplish anyway as far as Indian Independence was concerned.

    Or he could have done a Tito.
    There were others who tried that. British power in India had been cemented over a hundred years. The number of collaborators was huge. Not surprising considering the economic situation and the fact that government, law-enforcement and military jobs paid far better than anything else. Armed resistance movements could never have been as successful as the ones in France and other countries newly occupied by the Germans. Gandhi and the INC being opposed to any armed resistance made things worse.

    What Bose tried was no different from what Degaulle did. His own country was occupied by a foreign power. Some of his countrymen were collaborating with the enemy (the number was much higher in India for reasons stated above). So he decided to take the help of the enemy of that occupying power to invade his own country. Unfortunately, the only enemy avaiable were the Japanese, whose intentions (we now know) were different from what they professed to Bose and who were ultimately not strong enough to beat the British.

    Leave a comment:


  • popillol
    replied
    And you said in post #16, "Hitler and Hirohito" implying that you hold Hirohito to be the primary person responsible for the atrocoties still when talked about his trials you say who cares?!!! Really can't understand you.

    Leave a comment:


  • popillol
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Again, so what? The writing was on the wall after the initial military disasters of WWI. The largest army within the British Empire without a political voice was not going to last forever. Indian Independence or Dominance within the British Empire was inevitable.

    And your point is? Do you know how many Princes and Princesses you have that can marry into the Royal Family and start Indianizing the House of Windsor?
    Still, the "empire" will essentially be a British one. They conquered it.


    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Let me get this straight. No one could have stopped 2.5 million Indian men from fighting for the British crown. And you thought Bose had a chance in hell of defeating this army?
    And that is the precise reason why BIA is not remebered in India. They fought for the British crown. And then you lament that Indians do not honour/remember them.

    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Try 2.5 million+ and at least 10 million wounded.
    If you are referring to the Japanese, the one man responsible, Hideki Tojo, was hanged.
    Really can't see how Hirohito is innocent to you. Will have to research on him.

    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Now, why would the US want to do that? Doing what she did, she had a 2.5 million man British Indian Army fighting along her side. Doing what you suggest, at best, she would have 45K man Indian National Army that she now had to equipped. I say siding with Bose would have been an idiotic dumb mistake.
    So, essentially BIA had British masters. So sorry to say they will not be honoured in India.

    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    You're blaming the Americans for not coming to an alliance that never existed. You're reaching.
    The Americans were not able to budge Indira because she had decent backing unlike Bose.

    Leave a comment:


  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    Well someone forgot to tell the British that it was inevitable.
    The Cripps mission told everyone that the Brits had nothing left but looking for a way out.

    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    Oh come on! The royal family would have never allowed it.
    DNA tests show Duke of Cambridge 'has Indian ancestry' - Telegraph

    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    He didn't. That's why he turned to the Japanese, the only British enemy in the neighborhood. Maybe that was the wrong choice but I don't blame him for trying. At least he got off his backside and did something, unlike certain others who did nothing besides shouting Quit India and then tried to stop Indian Soldiers from mutinying.
    Or he could have done a Tito.

    Leave a comment:


  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by anil View Post
    The man fought against a colonial power and its likes. Off course the west is going to hate him.
    That's just it. The West doesn't even know him. In the scheme of things, the INA did not rate. While there was a concern amongst the British, Kawabe and the IJA was easily a 100 times more important.

    Originally posted by anil View Post
    Though bose himself didn't live to see indias independence, his legacy(war against colonialism) should not be limited to india.
    By siding with the 2nd worst colonial power in the 20th Century? Bose is limited to India. Not even Japan knows or cares about him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Firestorm
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Again, so what? The writing was on the wall after the initial military disasters of WWI. The largest army within the British Empire without a political voice was not going to last forever. Indian Independence or Dominance within the British Empire was inevitable.
    Well someone forgot to tell the British that it was inevitable. They were doing pretty well handling Gandhi and co. and keeping British power in India strong in the 20's and 30's. Gandhi and the INC had succeeded in uniting a large section of Indians behind their banner but their methods of resistance and protest had been singularly unsuccessful in forcing the British hand. Gandhi's movements for civil disobedience and the like were failures. The Brits were clever enough to be seen to mollify Gandhi without actually giving up any power. Who knows how long they could have continued this? It might sound distasteful, but the reality remains that WW2 and the damage that Britain suffered in it was a godsend for India. Bose merely tried to take advantage of the situation. He probably knew his position was hopeless vis a vis the BIA and was counting on inspiring BIA soldiers to mutiny when they faced their own countrymen in battle. At least he knew what he was fighting for.

    And your point is? Do you know how many Princes and Princesses you have that can marry into the Royal Family and start Indianizing the House of Windsor?
    Oh come on! The royal family would have never allowed it.

    Let me get this straight. No one could have stopped 2.5 million Indian men from fighting for the British crown. And you thought Bose had a chance in hell of defeating this army?
    He didn't. That's why he turned to the Japanese, the only British enemy in the neighborhood. Maybe that was the wrong choice but I don't blame him for trying. At least he got off his backside and did something, unlike certain others who did nothing besides shouting Quit India and then tried to stop Indian Soldiers from mutinying.

    Leave a comment:


  • anil
    replied
    The man fought against a colonial power and its likes. Off course the west is going to hate him.

    Though bose himself didn't live to see indias independence, his legacy(war against colonialism) should not be limited to india.

    Leave a comment:

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