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  • #31
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    NYT - A Largely Indian Victory in World War II, Mostly Forgotten in India

    Whatever the motivation, money could not explain the butchery the IJA sufferred, especially when German and Italian armies did not suffer the same fates.

    BF answered you but a more personal ancedote.

    http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/int...tml#post976569

    The Quit India movement was not an anti-war movement.

    Did you missed the part about "Their surrender was not accepted. Mercy was neither asked nor given?"
    Emperor Hirohito died in 1989. If Hitler would have been captured, I don't think he would have lived for a year more.

    INA was just using the Japanese to achieve its own ends. Had America helped at that time, would have been great but as they didn't they don't have any moral high grounds to say from whom India should have asked for help. What makes you think that during colonial times, British never acted like a monster, they were just small when compared to the Japanese but a monster nonetheless.
    Another reason why Bose was having difficulty trying to get support in India was because of Gandhi's stance of non-violence. Both Gandhi and Bose wanted the same end but their paths were different.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by popillol View Post
      Emperor Hirohito died in 1989. If Hitler would have been captured, I don't think he would have lived for a year more.
      So what?

      Originally posted by popillol View Post
      INA was just using the Japanese to achieve its own ends.
      No, they were just Japanese stooges.

      Originally posted by popillol View Post
      Had America helped at that time, would have been great but as they didn't they don't have any moral high grounds to say from whom India should have asked for help.
      By joining the IJE, Bose and the INA declared themselves the enemies of the United States.

      Originally posted by popillol View Post
      What makes you think that during colonial times, British never acted like a monster, they were just small when compared to the Japanese but a monster nonetheless.
      So, you were just jumping from the pot and into the fire.

      Originally posted by popillol View Post
      Another reason why Bose was having difficulty trying to get support in India was because of Gandhi's stance of non-violence. Both Gandhi and Bose wanted the same end but their paths were different.
      Changes not one single bit of historic fact - that Bose was a Japanese stooge.
      Chimo

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        So what?
        So, you let free the worst offenders of war crimes, even when compared to Hitler, why? You talk about war crimes when it is convenient to you?

        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        By joining the IJE, Bose and the INA declared themselves the enemies of the United States.
        By not helping India win its freedom, USA forced itself to be the enemy, simple.

        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        So, you were just jumping from the pot and into the fire.
        Nationalism had attained maturity by 1947 in India. Britishers could not hold onto the entire India no matter what after that. The British were able to rule India because unity and nationalism was absent. Their Divide and Rule policy had reached the end of its guarantee period.
        And since Britain was supreme power before WW2, and it couldn't hold on to India, Japan wouldn't have either. So, it was not the case of jumping from a pot into the fire.

        As for as being a Japanese stooge, Bose spent his entire life fighting for India's independence, I don't need a stamp of authority from anyone to believe that he was a patriot.
        Last edited by popillol; 12 Jan 15,, 15:33. Reason: again typo!!
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        • #34
          Originally posted by popillol View Post
          So, you let free the worst offenders of war crimes, even when compared to Hitler, why? You talk about war crimes when it is convenient to you?
          What does that have anything got to the fact that the IJA was killed almost to the last man?

          Originally posted by popillol View Post
          By not helping India win its freedom, USA forced itself to be the enemy, simple.
          So if I don't help you up, you have the right to punch me in the face?

          Don't be surprised about a returning knock out punch.

          Originally posted by popillol View Post
          Nationalism had attained maturity by 1947 in India. Britishers could not hold onto the entire India no matter what after that. The British were able to rule India because unity and nationalism was absent. Their Divide and Rule policy had reached the end of its guarantee period.
          Who cares?

          Originally posted by popillol View Post
          And since Britain was supreme power before WW2, and it couldn't hold on to India, Japan wouldn't have either. So, it was not the case of jumping from a pot into the fire.
          You have absolutely no clue. The Japanese methods of occupation is to dope you with opium and then slaughter you. They tried germ warefare in China and did starvation. You might win in the end but not without sufferring the same casaulties as China. 10s of millions dead.

          So, yes, not only jumping into a fire but jumping into a raging inferno.

          Originally posted by popillol View Post
          As for as being a Japanese stooge, Nehru spent his entire life fighting for India's independence, I don't need a stamp of authority from anyone to believe it.
          And I don't need your propaganda to tell me that Bose was used by Japan and fed bullshit all that time.

          Bose is YOUR myth and you have the right to believe it anyway you want but when even the Japanese are saying that Bose was a nobody, don't make the rest of us believe those lies.
          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 12 Jan 15,, 15:41.
          Chimo

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
            Their surrender was not accepted. Mercy was neither asked nor given.
            What?


            Japanese prisoners of war in World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
            "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              Actually, during that time, more Indians sided against him than with him.

              Yes, he lost.

              Here's a guy who sided with Hitler and Hirohito and you're talking about rights? Monsters don't understand anything about rights. They only understand power. If anything, Bose chosed the smallest of the three monsters and you are surprised when the biggest monster alledgedly squashed him?
              No,

              We are surprised that Stalin is supposedly being given kudos for this
              "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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              • #37
                Take the higher number, 50,000. The IJA was 5+ million strong. Not even 1% prisoners.
                Chimo

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  What does that have anything got to the fact that the IJA was killed almost to the last man?
                  Emperor Hirohito was the man responsible for the crimes. But hey, let him live, he is a nobody. But Bose just got his help to free India. Oh my God! lets kill him! He deserves a knock out punch! Great.

                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  So if I don't help you up, you have the right to punch me in the face?
                  Don't be surprised about a returning knock out punch.
                  Except for the fact that it was India who was being punched. It approached various countries to help her stop getting punched but the Allies didn't care. So India goes to only help it could get, unfortunately Axis guys, so India should get punched more! What logic is that??


                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  Who cares?
                  Bose is YOUR myth and you have the right to believe it anyway you want but when even the Japanese are saying that Bose was a nobody, don't make the rest of us believe those lies.
                  What I think, after Allied powers won, they went on PR worldwide mindlessly putting anyone and everyone in either the Allied or the Axis camp and treating them as such. Anyways, not my problem.
                  BTW, Bose was going to get Bharat Ratna, highest honorary award in India, but was not accepted by his family members as they didn't want to accept it posthumously. They believe that he might still be alive. We are not forgetting our heroes.
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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by antimony View Post
                    We are surprised that Stalin is supposedly being given kudos for this
                    Well, that is another thing. It would be so out of character for Stalin to do anything for rights or kudos. He doesn't care if the thing is right or people would cheer for it. He cares if it would scare you.
                    Chimo

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by popillol View Post
                      Emperor Hirohito was the man responsible for the crimes. But hey, let him live, he is a nobody. But Bose just got his help to free India. Oh my God! lets kill him! He deserves a knock out punch! Great.
                      If you want to go that route. The people responsibile was the Imperial Japanese Cabinet. They decided on war and they decided on how to prosecute that war. Hirohito had the final go-no-go but he was not the primary decision maker.

                      But who the hell said anything about killing Bose? There was no assassination attempt nor was he a primary target even for the Brits. If captured, he would face the books but there was no special glee for his demise. There were far more important targets to be achieved and I hate to burst more myths for you but Bose was extremely low on the list of target priorities. Hell, he's even off the list.

                      Originally posted by popillol View Post
                      Except for the fact that it was India who was being punched. It approached various countries to help her stop getting punched but the Allies didn't care. So India goes to only help it could get, unfortunately Axis guys, so India should get punched more! What logic is that??
                      The logic that you joined a hostile combative power that declared war and launched a surprise attack on the United States and actively conducting combat operations against an Allied Power of the United States in the same theatre of operations. Legally, Bose and the INA were hostile enemies of the United States by their own choosing.

                      Sorry, that is the bed that Bose made.

                      Originally posted by popillol View Post
                      What I think, after Allied powers won, they went on PR worldwide mindlessly putting anyone and everyone in either the Allied or the Axis camp and treating them as such. Anyways, not my problem.
                      So, how does that change the JAPANESE narrative? We're not talking about what the Brits or the Americans are saying. We are talking about what the JAPANESE are saying!

                      Originally posted by popillol View Post
                      BTW, Bose was going to get Bharat Ratna, highest honorary award in India, but was not accepted by his family members as they didn't want to accept it posthumously. They believe that he might still be alive. We are not forgetting our heroes.
                      Your country. Your rules. But WAB ain't India.
                      Chimo

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        If you want to go that route. The people responsibile was the Imperial Japanese Cabinet. They decided on war and they decided on how to prosecute that war. Hirohito had the final go-no-go but he was not the primary decision maker.
                        How does that even make sense? By that logic, Hitler was also not the primary decision maker, he just had the final go-no-go authority. The decisions were made by Himmler, Goebbels and other SS officers. Hitler was called the Fuhrer in Germany and Hirohito was called the Emperor (whatever in Japanese) in Japan. Hitler should have then the same respect in Germany as Hirohito has in Japan??
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        But who the hell said anything about killing Bose? There was no assassination attempt nor was he a primary target even for the Brits. If captured, he would face the books but there was no special glee for his demise. There were far more important targets to be achieved and I hate to burst more myths for you but Bose was extremely low on the list of target priorities. Hell, he's even off the list.
                        I was referring to the glee in Bigfella's statement. He seemed quite happy to hear that Bose was killed by Stalin. I don't know whether or not he protests that USA didn't kill Hirohito.
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        The logic that you joined a hostile combative power that declared war and launched a surprise attack on the United States and actively conducting combat operations against an Allied Power of the United States in the same theatre of operations. Legally, Bose and the INA were hostile enemies of the United States by their own choosing.

                        Sorry, that is the bed that Bose made.
                        I have no qualms about the bed that Bose made. Indira Gandhi did make the same bed and came out victorious.

                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        So, how does that change the JAPANESE narrative? We're not talking about what the Brits or the Americans are saying. We are talking about what the JAPANESE are saying!
                        I don't know about this one, need more info.
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by popillol View Post
                          By not helping India win its freedom, USA forced itself to be the enemy, simple.
                          IIRC, and if I've read correctly, sometime during WWII US did ask Britain to get rid of it's colonialism after the war ended i.e. grant colonies freedom. How is US the enemy then?

                          Also, that was World War. US had to manage many issues, and antagonizing an ally (Britain) for a distant land (India) was not a strategic option for her.

                          Funny how everything is US' fault even decades from today.

                          Originally posted by popillol View Post
                          Nationalism had attained maturity by 1947 in India. Britishers could not hold onto the entire India no matter what after that. The British were able to rule India because unity and nationalism was absent. Their Divide and Rule policy had reached the end of its guarantee period.
                          And since Britain was supreme power before WW2, and it couldn't hold on to India, Japan wouldn't have either. So, it was not the case of jumping from a pot into the fire.
                          Wrong premise. Britain was almost bankrupt after WWII. Holding onto India and managing it meant crores to be spent, which they simply couldn't afford. One amongst many reason, why it finally dawned on the Brits that it was time to quit.
                          Last edited by Oracle; 12 Jan 15,, 17:17.
                          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by popillol View Post
                            How does that even make sense? By that logic, Hitler was also not the primary decision maker, he just had the final go-no-go authority.
                            WRONG. Operation BARBAROSSA was his baby and his baby alone. You lack so much knowledge about WWII, even India during WWII that you're making assumptions that do not bore on facts.

                            Originally posted by popillol View Post
                            I have no qualms about the bed that Bose made. Indira Gandhi did make the same bed and came out victorious.
                            Indira wasn't even in power then and Mahatma Gandhi did not signed an alliance with the IJE.
                            Chimo

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by antimony View Post
                              No,

                              We are surprised that Stalin is supposedly being given kudos for this
                              Anti,

                              If my great-grandfather was killed by your great-grandfather, we'd have some kind of an enmity between us even to this day. BF is correct in his position that an enemy's friend is better dead. He has his say and his opinion matters. Fortunately this is WAB, I can criticise Jesus and Christianity and even the white supremacist Americans, quoting the correct sources and get away with it. Not lecturing you, so my apologies in advance, if you feel offended.
                              Last edited by TopHatter; 12 Jan 15,, 21:45.
                              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                                IIRC, and if I've read correctly, sometime during WWII US did ask Britain to get rid of it's colonialism after the war ended i.e. grant colonies freedom. How is US the enemy then?

                                Also, that was World War. US had to manage many issues, and antagonizing an ally (Britain) for a distant land (India) was not a strategic option for her.

                                Funny how everything is US' fault even decades from today.



                                Wrong premise. Britain was almost bankrupt after WWII. Holding onto India and managing it meant crores to be spent, which they simply couldn't afford. One amongst many reason, why it finally dawned on the Brits that it was time to quit.
                                I am not saying it is USA's fault. I am just saying that USA made a decision and made enemies in that process. USA's enemy (Bose) turned out not to be a great force but that doesn't belittle his bravery and intentions.
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