21 killed as terrorists stage serial attacks to disrupt Kashmir polls

[ambidex]

I don't know which incident you're talking about, it was not me.

And yes, I'd take pride too for a wrong being corrected. But the Army should not be dragged for political gains, I criticised the Congress for it and now I've done the same for BJP. I see it as petty politics, you see this as justice being done. I'm fine with that.

I think you have missed the point totally. It is far more dangerous to pitch army against GoI by using hoax and conspiracy theories than Army leadership making it easier for GoI to conduct free and fair elections at the cost of expediting a case against its soldiers of an incident published by media and outrage shown by locals.

All your arguments are showing that

1. You have no faith in Court inquiry done by Army.

2. By your logic the Army leadership and GoI connived together, against Soldiers to make a bad decision.

Let it be.

The army leadership and GOI made that decision after weighing all the pros and cons together. I see no traction or contradiction happening here that civilians should have sleepless nights over it.

Civilians should be more worried if such hoaxes are going to become part of main stream media and political discourse. Like the one Ajay Shukla did by picking a hoax and published it on his blog writing ~1000 word article.

[Oracle]

Let me guess again, I am not too sure if it was LT or Tronic, during a conversation with a Pakistani poster 2-3 years back here at WAB, the Indian poster was taking pride in army as an institution who hand over penalties and sentences if a wrong is done unlike PA.

My apologies in advance if it was Tronic; for dragging him into this discussion.

I don't know which incident you're talking about, it was not me.

And yes, I'd take pride too for a wrong being corrected. But the Army should not be dragged for political gains, I criticised the Congress for it and now I've done the same for BJP. I see it as petty politics, you see this as justice being done. I'm fine with that.

[Oracle]

Yes it was never offered to us for THAT tender. The tender was over and wrapped, the two jets where short listed.

Going by your link and as discussed by many senior members at BR it was a gimmickry thrown at us to stall the the further process supported by lobbyist like A. Shukla. Heck it is already in limbo now.

Nice try manipulating what you yourself said.

BJP's U Turns on black money and Army's court of inquiry resulting few soldiers shown door and quick apology to make elections hassle free (Army's massive responsibility and high priority) doesn't make sense.

Ofcourse it makes sense. Politics. Every political party is the same when it comes to power or sits in opposition. However, with that I'd also admit that decision making is faster with the BJP, and the Government currently is going in the right direction.

There have been court martial done and life terms sentenced to Soldier serving the same state. Your concern was never registered for them. I can guess you might have been rather appreciating the army for doing the justice.

Concern for who? What specific incidents? I have addressed the recent issue, what is wrong is wrong.

[ambidex]

So now you know. My post came in response to your post, which is as below: You said it was never offered to us, which is incorrect.

Yes it was never offered to us for THAT tender. The tender was over and wrapped, the two jets where short listed.

Going by your link's date and as discussed by many senior members at BR it was a gimmickry thrown at us to stall the the further process, supported by lobbyist like A. Shukla. Heck it is already in limbo now.

My point was to offer an insight that not everything the BJP does is right. The BJP right now has fallen short of pre-poll promises, and destroyed the careers of Armymen for electoral gains in J&K.

BJP's U Turns on black money and Army's court of inquiry resulting few soldiers shown door and quick apology to make elections hassle free (Army's massive responsibility and high priority) doesn't make sense.

There have been court martial done and life terms sentenced to Soldiers serving the same state. Your concern was never registered for them. I can guess you might have been rather appreciating the army for doing the justice on those instances.

Let me guess again, I am not too sure if it was LT or Tronic, during a conversation with a Pakistani poster 2-3 years back here at WAB, the Indian poster was taking pride in army as an institution who hand over penalties and sentences if a wrong is done unlike PA.

My apologies in advance if it was Tronic; for dragging him into this discussion.

[Double Edge]

That last part is from the Ajai Shukla article posted later right? The problem is that there seems to be no evidence of the terrorists coming in a vehicle. They seemed to have trekked there and atacked on foot. Ajai Shukla mentions an anonymous Whatsapp message as his source

The DH article had this to say...

The WhatsApp message, circulating for the last few days, claims that Pakistan-backed militants entered the Army camp in Uri with relative ease as the sentry did not open fire on remembering the Budgam incident.

It also said terrorists entered the Army camp in a vehicle; they actually cut wires of the fence from the direction of the Jhelum river to gain entry.

makes sense, these guys would never come in through the front door.

[Oracle]

F-35 was never offered in MMRCA tender. Ajai Shukla was trolling even before this report.

The report came after six months when India rejected two of US jets and short listed Euro-fighter and Rafale after long, costly and laborious tender process.

Having said that InN may buy these jets in future; with a separate tender process; I hope.

So now you know. My post came in response to your post, which is as below:

He is the same person who tried to distract decision making on Rafale by pitching F-35 when it was never offered to us, till today.

You said it was never offered to us, which is incorrect.

The thread is not about black money, you can open a new thread to endorse congress-I's new book on BJP's U turns.

My point was to offer an insight that not everything the BJP does is right. The BJP right now has fallen short of pre-poll promises, and destroyed the careers of Armymen for electoral gains in J&K.

[ambidex]

Soldiers gripe all the time and it would be a stupid charge just because the soldier involved is pissed off. Yeah, he thinks the order is stupid and lets everyone know it ... but he's not disobeying it.

Having said that, it would be an extremely poor Officer who does not know where or how this gripe came to be. There might be a bigger picture involved or that the griping soldier don't understand his orders.

Bottom line, soldiers have died and some of his pals are blaming the orders. To call this treachery isn't soldiering.

You could be right otherwise the action might have already taken. It is not a big deal to trace the messages. GoI have pinpointed the origin of SMS before, even originating from foreign lands.

Sir, even the time line doesn't matches. As per above link the message came out a week ago and the caution was issued by the army not to pay heed. The attack on Artillery unit in Uri happened on last Friday.

Ajay Shukla picked up a News from it and poorly correlated it with the fatalities that happened on Friday. No one has seen the message, May be LT can post that message with the time and date he received.

As per media reports the Guy was telling Generals to mind their own business and not poke the nose in the matters of soldiers on duty. The another report says the message was blaming instructions from higher authorities that the terrorist driving over check posts were not engage on very first instance.

[Officer of Engineers]

These disgruntled elements spreading treachery should be brought to book.

Soldiers gripe all the time and it would be a stupid charge just because the soldier involved is pissed off. Yeah, he thinks the order is stupid and lets everyone know it ... but he's not disobeying it.

Having said that, it would be an extremely poor Officer who does not know where or how this gripe came to be. There might be a bigger picture involved or that the griping soldier don't understand his orders.

Bottom line, soldiers have died and some of his pals are blaming the orders. To call this treachery isn't soldiering.

[ambidex]

Correct. But BJP fans fail to understand that. There have been U-turns by the BJP since it came to power. Many, but I'll give just one example for the time being.
Will bring back black money in 100 days: BJP chief Rajnath Singh

The thread is not about black money, you can open a new thread to endorse congress-I's new book on BJP's U turns.

[ambidex]

Fake message blames Army for Uri attacks

“The WhatsApp message is wrong. It appears disgruntled elements are putting out canards in social media. The inputs about soldiers being hesitant or under orders to be defensive are incorrect and have no merit,” an Army officer said.

These disgruntled elements spreading treachery should be brought to book.

The recent killing of the two youths, who did not stop at two check posts and were fired upon at the third, drew strong reactions in the public and media, compelling Lt Gen Hooda to publicly apologise in order to bring down the people’s anger in the valley.

Very right, the army has to coexist with locals, the decision to apologies was right; successful election were priority. The vally has seen many long protests started with minor incidents.

“Mistakes will happen. Let me assure you that I have a clear understanding of the difficulties under which we operate and that nobody will be unfairly harmed. This clear message must go out to all units,” he said in a letter to the officers under the northern command.

Absolutely, Army knows how to work under pressures and take difficult decisions.

[ambidex]

A Nov 3, 2011 article - U.S. open to selling F-35 jet fighters to India

F-35 was never offered in MMRCA tender. Ajai Shukla was trolling even before this report.

The report came after six months when India rejected two of US jets and short listed Euro-fighter and Rafale after long, costly and laborious tender process.

Having said that InN may buy these jets in future; with a separate tender process; I hope.

[lemontree]

Ajai Shukla mentions an anonymous Whatsapp message as his source

We don't even know if this is from an actual armyman or just someone (rightfully) pissed off at what hapened and desperate to understand why it happened.

The whatsapp message was also posted on my coursemates whatsapp group.
It really spread like wildfire in most military coursemate groups.

After the Badgam incident, most of our regimental groups were rife with messages that examples should not be made of the men as the incident was a operation error and not murder. These were written by retired Brigadiers and Generals. But by 27 Nov, as per the Govt instructions 9 men of the 53 RR were found guilty by a COI and directed to face Court Martial and possibly life imprisonment. For what - for following SOP drills in an insurgency area!

The Northern Army commander is currently addressing the damage done by the two incidents to unit moral by writing to all units. This has also been forwarded on most Army whatsapp groups.

No reason to trust Ajai Shukla completely when even he isn't sure about his own sources.

Its not about Ajay Shukla, but about the sentiment that has erupted amongst the units.

[Oracle]

Successful elections with high voter turnout is a good enough response i would think. It means these attacks did not and cannot affect facts on the ground.

Yes.

Opposition's job is to oppose, every now & then they have a point. Got a heavy dose of it in the last govt. The same people that oppose propose when they are in power.

But the govt lies, the opposition lies and only you if you are aware and alert can spot the BS. I don't pay much attention to what either says because its just politics rather than policy. The media isn't too interested in pointing out what matters, only a few do. Most of the time they are busy playing opposition's mouth peice.

Democracy is messy but its the best we have.

Correct. But BJP fans fail to understand that. There have been U-turns by the BJP since it came to power. Many, but I'll give just one example for the time being.
Will bring back black money in 100 days: BJP chief Rajnath Singh

And the court-martial of the guys who fired on the car, that didn't stop. It's cheap politics by BJP to gain seats in Kashmir sympathetically, but deep down it would affect the morale of the Armed Forces. Who in the right state of mind speeds down an Army barricade? It's an unfortunate incident, but blaming the Army is wrong, and prosecuting those that did their job is criminal. This is why we have AFSPA in the first place, so that the Army is shielded from prosecution for collateral damage in strife-torn areas. Had this incident occurred during UPA's governance, the internet would have been flooded with hate/vitriolic messages. I don't know how many Indian members here are from terrorist infested areas, I am, and I know AFSPA works. Without AFSPA, the ethnic tribals of the NE would have butchered each other long back.

[Oracle]

He is the same person who tried to distract decision making on Rafale by pitching F-35 when it was never offered to us, till today.

A Nov 3, 2011 article - U.S. open to selling F-35 jet fighters to India

[ambidex]

Opposition's job is to oppose, every now & then they have a point. Got a heavy dose of it in the last govt. The same people that oppose propose when they are in power.

But the govt lies, the opposition lies and only you if you are aware and alert can spot the BS. I don't pay much attention to what either says because its just politics rather than policy. The media isn't too interested in pointing out what matters, only a few do. Most of the time they are busy playing opposition's mouth peice.

Democracy is messy but its the best we have.

Cliche and more cliche.

Indian is a country in election mode every change of season. If elections are driving the momentum of progress or are shakers and movers of political inertia then let it be. There is nothing wrong in it.

As far as opposing for sake of opposing is concern then there shouldn't lecture given on when the same opposition is opposed. See the natural order of things, we get trapped into 'circle in proving'.

Having said that my point remains the same focusing on the topic in hand and accusations made against present government that it raises more questions than answers against both sides. Furthermore there should be some time given before the conclusions are made. There can be many issues where conclusions are ready made, like the one for what our Parliament got stalled. I am all for the opposition making sure such derogatory language is not used by the law makers.