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21 killed as terrorists stage serial attacks to disrupt Kashmir polls

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    Ajai Shukla is a moron who writes a blog moderated by him. LT hates present government.
    And how does two individuals so far apart came up with the same references if not widespread.

    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    The rule of thumb is credibility of the source. No person with sound mind will take this source seriously, will you? If leadership makes sure that an unfounded story is brought into perceptive and rebutted it doesn't make them suspect of some alleged guilt.
    Who cares about alleged guilt? This is about leadership. If something is attributed to you, true or false, then it is your duty to make your position extremely clear.

    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    BTW I just got message that I have won 2 million dollars. I hope every one else got the same message and we all are millionaire now. Disseminating a SMS doesn't tantamount to dissent or approval of the content by the receiver.
    Wrong analogy. You just won a milliion dollars and you want me to spend $200,000 on a house for you. I go ahead and make the contract and charged it back to you. Oh, that wasn't you? Well, why the hell didn't you say so?

    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    That is an exaggeration,
    Is it? Both Col Shukla and Capt LT got feedback from their course mates.

    Leave a comment:


  • ambidex
    replied
    Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
    Modi fucked up big time with the Army with that line of statement about forcing Army to apologize. I hope he is sincere enough to make amends to the Army for making such statements even though it was done in an attempt to win over the local populace who has long grievances with the Army because the Army serves the entire nation not just one part of the nation. I think we as a whole has made too many sops to the local populace. If we had done away with Article 370, we would not need to make too many sops to J&K. The best thing is to sever Jammu from Kashmir and make it into a state and then article 370 would cease to be in force since it only applies to J&K, not Kashmir only.

    In my opinion, there was no way in hell that the soldiers would have enough time to classify the incoming vehicle as a threat or not a threat in that short brief period of time. They only had seconds to react and it was better to shoot and ask questions later. Moreover, any reasonable person would not speed up toward a checkpoint.

    I strongly suspect that the teens knew what they were doing and they figured that they could extract more damage if they went at the soldiers wearing only civilian clothes and no weapons. I think it was similar to the lines of "suicide by cop" tactics. This was designed to embarrass the IA and force the IA through local populace outrage (misplaces as that may be) and change the tactics of IA so the terrorists could later take advantage of it. Sure enough it did, and the nation paid a price of 11 brave unreplaceable souls for it.

    Modi should have realized this and not make that line. It was a huge blunder and he needs to be called out for it regardless whether it would improve Congress' standings or not. I just hope he is smart enough to realize that and make amends.
    If I was to tell Modi, It should have been avoided.

    But we all missing a very crucial aspect when addressing this whole issue of Kashmir problem. I was about take this whole debate to a tangent using Modi's bold effort of political mobilization (him being a polarizing figure or political genius) by asking a question to all on what their inputs are to solve this Kashmir problem.

    Though you have already started few points and many good point were made by Lemontree on article 370 before as well. But my analogy is that we are missing the logistics and tools solving this problem over tactics.

    I will will explain it further, gotta go to job...

    Leave a comment:


  • ambidex
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Two very independent sources, the good Captain LT and Col Shukla, got it and the Army acknowledged the Whatsapp message was wide spread.
    Ajai Shukla is a moron who writes a blog moderated by him. LT hates present government.

    The rule of thumb is credibility of the source. No person with sound mind will take this source seriously, will you? If leadership makes sure that an unfounded story is brought into perceptive and rebutted it doesn't make them suspect of some alleged guilt.

    BTW I just got message that I have won 2 million dollars. I hope every one else got the same message and we all are millionaire now. Disseminating a SMS doesn't tantamount to dissent or approval of the content by the receiver.

    It's pissing off the Army rank and file. What do you think?
    That is an exaggeration, possibility of a vicious propaganda/psy-op by enemy can not be ruled out either. There is no single sign if army has changed its tactics operating in that state. The whole reasoning this propaganda was founded on, was a lie that the terrorists rained in bulldozing the check post and it has been debunked. All we have been listening now as a counter to that failed premise is patronizing obfuscation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Firestorm
    replied
    Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
    If we had done away with Article 370, we would not need to make too many sops to J&K. The best thing is to sever Jammu from Kashmir and make it into a state and then article 370 would cease to be in force since it only applies to J&K, not Kashmir only.
    This can't be done without getting the aproval of the J&K state assembly. Basically the same problem as with removing Article 370. Fat chance of either happening, unless the BJP makes considerable inroads into the assembly.

    Leave a comment:


  • commander
    replied
    We have seen in almost all elections in 2014 that a higher voter turnout meant it was favourable for the BJP. Hopefully BJP atleast manages to win a near majority if not absolute majority.

    Leave a comment:


  • commander
    replied
    Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
    If we had done away with Article 370, we would not need to make too many sops to J&K. The best thing is to sever Jammu from Kashmir and make it into a state and then article 370 would cease to be in force since it only applies to J&K, not Kashmir only.
    Interesting, I never thought of this way. Now that you mention it, wasn't it the "Maharaja of Kashmir" that annexed Kashmir with India and not Jammu ? Since BJP is all for making states smaller for easier administration, I wonder if this will cross anyone's mind in BJP anytime soon ? Also Jammu is not predominantly Muslim populated for NC or PDP and their ilk to play their dirty politics invoking "azadi" (Freedom) every now and then when their authority is diminishing in the valley or the mood of the general populace starts to swing towards a positive note. I just hope this mess by Modi atleast yields what he had hoped for , a BJP government in J&K.

    Manohar Parikar is already clearing massive defense deals and hopefully IA is compensated by giving them what they need to safeguard our country better (oh!! the irony ).

    Leave a comment:


  • Blademaster
    replied
    Modi fucked up big time with the Army with that line of statement about forcing Army to apologize. I hope he is sincere enough to make amends to the Army for making such statements even though it was done in an attempt to win over the local populace who has long grievances with the Army because the Army serves the entire nation not just one part of the nation. I think we as a whole has made too many sops to the local populace. If we had done away with Article 370, we would not need to make too many sops to J&K. The best thing is to sever Jammu from Kashmir and make it into a state and then article 370 would cease to be in force since it only applies to J&K, not Kashmir only.

    In my opinion, there was no way in hell that the soldiers would have enough time to classify the incoming vehicle as a threat or not a threat in that short brief period of time. They only had seconds to react and it was better to shoot and ask questions later. Moreover, any reasonable person would not speed up toward a checkpoint.

    I strongly suspect that the teens knew what they were doing and they figured that they could extract more damage if they went at the soldiers wearing only civilian clothes and no weapons. I think it was similar to the lines of "suicide by cop" tactics. This was designed to embarrass the IA and force the IA through local populace outrage (misplaces as that may be) and change the tactics of IA so the terrorists could later take advantage of it. Sure enough it did, and the nation paid a price of 11 brave unreplaceable souls for it.

    Modi should have realized this and not make that line. It was a huge blunder and he needs to be called out for it regardless whether it would improve Congress' standings or not. I just hope he is smart enough to realize that and make amends.

    Leave a comment:


  • commander
    replied
    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    Let me make a distinction. The Army criticizing and reviewing and even taking blame for its wrong actions is not a problem. That is to be encouraged. Witness the report on CIA torture that the US is publishing. Few countries would have the guts to spill their dirty laundry like this. The problem is in Modi claiming that he made the Army take responsibility, thereby saying that without him, the Army will not act in a transparent manner.
    I agree, but in my personal opinion though, if the CIA had indeed only tortured the terrorists then I wouldn't mind whatever way they treat those scum's. They are terrorists after all.

    Leave a comment:


  • kuku
    replied
    Originally posted by commander View Post
    This will set a bad precedent by having the Army apologise for every action it takes and will basically tie it's hands. Saying that, wasn't these jihadists attacking around 3:00 am or some where around that time when even a crazy kashmiri will know getting out will be a high risk and I wonder if our men indeed were restricted on firing on them ?
    lll
    The military needs to have enough checks and balances to have a fool proof and indipendent mechanism for punishing people who commit crimes on duty, if the politicians can influence this mechanism they will corrupt it completely.

    Approaching a heavily fortified military installation with clear aggression should be responded with force, if the prevailing rules are for the soldiers to wait till they are shot at or bombed then no one should follow such laws. As they say fire the first warning shot in the air(of the lungs).

    Leave a comment:


  • antimony
    replied
    Originally posted by commander View Post
    Although I support Modi on most of his decisions (mainly because they are nationalistic and not to loot the country), on this front I believe he made a mistake by making the Army take responsibility for the actions of some stupid teens. Those teens had proved they are beyond stupid by not stopping the vehicle when they know the Army can very well shoot at them. The Army shouldn't be held responsible while it tries to protect civilians from the jihadis. Those two teens have literally asked for it. I have no problem if the Army again shoots someone who indulges in similar fashion let it be anyone.

    This will set a bad precedent by having the Army apologise for every action it takes and will basically tie it's hands. Saying that, wasn't these jihadists attacking around 3:00 am or some where around that time when even a crazy kashmiri will know getting out will be a high risk and I wonder if our men indeed were restricted on firing on them ?


    Let me make a distinction. The Army criticizing and reviewing and even taking blame for its wrong actions is not a problem. That is to be encouraged. Witness the report on CIA torture that the US is publishing. Few countries would have the guts to spill their dirty laundry like this. The problem is in Modi claiming that he made the Army take responsibility, thereby saying that without him, the Army will not act in a transparent manner.

    Leave a comment:


  • Double Edge
    replied
    Meanwhile...

    Though the turnout in J&K was not as impressive as in the first two phases, there was increased participation in areas that traditionally boycott polls.

    The Chief Election officer informed that in the Baramulla district, Uri recorded 79 per cent turnout, Rafiabad 63 per cent, Sangrama 56.15 per cent, Baramulla 45 per cent, Gulmarg 72 per cent and Pattan 60 per cent. In the five Assembly constituencies of Budgam district, Chadoora recorded 65 per cent turnout, Budgam 70 per cent, Beerwah 74.14 per cent, Khan Sahib 73 per cent and Charar-i-Sharief 82.14 per cent. In Pulwama district, Pampore recorded 46.48 per cent, Pulwama 38.31 per cent and Rajpora 47.06 per cent voter turnout.
    58% turnout in third phase of J&K Assembly polls | Hindu | Dec 09 2014

    Leave a comment:


  • commander
    replied
    Although I support Modi on most of his decisions (mainly because they are nationalistic and not to loot the country), on this front I believe he made a mistake by making the Army take responsibility for the actions of some stupid teens. Those teens had proved they are beyond stupid by not stopping the vehicle when they know the Army can very well shoot at them. The Army shouldn't be held responsible while it tries to protect civilians from the jihadis. Those two teens have literally asked for it. I have no problem if the Army again shoots someone who indulges in similar fashion let it be anyone.

    This will set a bad precedent by having the Army apologise for every action it takes and will basically tie it's hands. Saying that, wasn't these jihadists attacking around 3:00 am or some where around that time when even a crazy kashmiri will know getting out will be a high risk and I wonder if our men indeed were restricted on firing on them ?

    Leave a comment:


  • antimony
    replied
    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    Where is the proof that gripe is widespread? I have drafted my response to prove that it is not the case and called all the usual suspects out for exaggerating and quoting a unfounded source.
    You are sitting somewhere unpronounceable and drafting a "proof" on how something may or may not be widespread in the Indian Army officer's community. Your tentacles are looooong

    Leave a comment:


  • lemontree
    replied
    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    There is a saying in punjabi ''aap moye, jag parlo''. For a person (congress-I) out of power, even a doomsday doesn't matter.
    What that the same case with the BJP the past 10 years?

    Again wrong analogy.
    You are unable to comprehend the issue at hand.

    I remember you people cribbing about failure of army leadership for not intervening in time when Junior ranked soldiers attacked officers following altercations, rioted on streets and hurled abuses on loud speakers. Being proactively taking care of such propaganda doesn't make army or GOI suspect here.
    The cribbing was about poor leadership and officer quality at unit level.

    Two very different aspects that are alien to you or anyone who has not been part of military or para-military service, hence you are unable to comprehend and co-relate issues.

    Leave a comment:


  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    Where is the proof that gripe is widespread? I have drafted my response to prove that it is not the case and called all the usual suspects out for exaggerating and quoting a unfounded source.
    Two very independent sources, the good Captain LT and Col Shukla, got it and the Army acknowledged the Whatsapp message was wide spread.

    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    The decision is limited only to what should be expedited or put on the slow stove or cold storage.
    It's pissing off the Army rank and file. What do you think?

    Leave a comment:

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