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  • #91
    For example this guy,

    ISIS twitter account operator ‘Mehdi’ arrested in Bangalore

    Eventhough he is not physically fighting in Syria I say treat this SOB properly and make an example of him.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by commander View Post
      Moral support and encouragement for what ? to kill innocent children,men or rape women and kill them ?
      Why not? Thought police is a billion times more scary than terrorists.

      Originally posted by commander View Post
      Recently in West Bengal state in India an entire village tried to protect a bunch of terrorists that were making bombs and were killing Indians. What do you say in that case. Are they responsible for providing safe hideouts or not ?
      Physically aiding and abetting? You've don't got laws dealing with that? Staying quiet? That's called freedom.
      Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 13 Dec 14,, 16:19.
      Chimo

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Cactus
        Your presentation of your army and by extension your country is at stake here, and that will shape our perceptions.
        Presentation of the IA i leave to those in or were in uniform. I do not do that nor have i claimed to do so.

        What i am focusing on is perceptions in Kashmir. What the govt says, does and how it effects people living there. The context is the present elections which are ongoing. Big picture.

        When it comes to Kashmir I as a civvie am blind, deaf and have my hands tied, my position is very weak. The state and the army create the facts on the ground and the narrative. if you read the article i linked to, the youths, those that survived said they never went through any checkpoints. Who to believe ? this is very common. Two competing narratives and it isn't clear what is going on because there is a media clampdown and flow of information is restricted.

        The people in the valley went with the boys and kicked up a stink. They've been on the receiving end for a long time now. Can those perceptions be addressed or not ?

        So you see i'm not condemning Modi for his actions (yet) unlike some in this thread.

        Originally posted by Cactus
        Why do you want to compare your army's presence in Kashmir (a state in your country) with our presence in Iraq or Afghanistan (sovereign states where we are temporarily conducting counter-terror operations)? Is it an ignorance of our country's history because of which you cannot draw suitable parallels to your country's experiences? Or something else?
        What is the american equivalent to AFSPA ? SOFA was as close as i could come.

        The comparison between AFSPA & SOFA was made loosely in terms of legal protection for operating in a troubled area. When or Why does an army require such to operate within its own borders ? I said its like Kashmir was another country. Like is a qualifier. Same applies for currently troubled areas of the NE. Have to create these legal instruments so as to protect the people there otherwise, rights, freedom, justice and whatever else we hold dear becomes meaningless without security. Whether AFSPA stays or goes is the army's call. They have the task of protecting those areas.

        Your distinction whilst useful in moving away from occupier army in troubled state does not cut much with the people on the street. India's way of dealing with insurgencies is to defeat them militarily and then politically co-opt the adversary. These people then run their own rackets are corrupt as anything and deliver little to the citizen that voted for them.

        Originally posted by Cactus
        If it is just ignorance, then I've tried to help you with a few pointers. If you have any specific follow-up questions, I'm sure AR and others can do a much thorough job of explaining the context of the ACW and specific actions taken therein. As far as perceptions go, after 150 years there are still some Southerners who grumble about the "War Over States' Rights" and the "War of Northern Aggression". Methinks that General Sherman would've approved of that unknown Indian Major who coined the phrase, "Grab them by their balls... hearts and minds will automatically follow"
        Thanks

        Originally posted by Cactus
        Seriously?

        At the time of their inclusion into the India Union, Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand and North-Eastern states were mostly isolated and primitive communities. It was Mr Nehru's concern that their communities would be exploited by traders, money-lenders and land-sharks from "mainstream India" who were familiar with compounding-interest and land-deeds. Thus they were setup along the precedence of "Indian" Reservations* in the US; it was supposed to be a time-limited measure until government, schools and regulated institutions could be setup there.
        Point remains property ownership in other areas of the country besides Kashmir isn't open and is the case to this day. I was not even aware such rstrictions were in place for these states earlier.

        So how to develop these areas and empower lives. How to get the people to trust a govt that is intent on doing so. That is what the present election is running upon.

        Originally posted by Cactus
        While the same case could be made for Ladakh and Gilgit in Kashmir, Kashmir Valley and Jammu were hardly any more isolated or primitive communities than most other parts of India. Kashmir Valley was a major stop in the southern leg of the Silk Route. It has been exposed to traders from other parts of India, as well as Central Asians and Chinese, for centuries. Its people were well-traveled and had important links all over India (including Mr. Nehru's family which had migrated to Uttar Pradesh in 1800s). And they certainly knew the idea of compounding-interest and land-deeds! It had nothing to do with avoiding changes in ethnic composition; it was all about carving out a privileged feudalistic position. Just as the slave-owning Virginia landowners carved out a privileged feudalistic position for themselves when they got the Wilmot Provisio dropped as part of the Compromise of 1850.
        I don't deny that Kashmir has extra privileges. The point about ethnic composition refers to the other areas i mentioned. This is the person who said it in a recent talk. He comes from Uttarakhand.

        Originally posted by Cactus
        FWIW, when you scrap Article 370 in the Valley and Jammu, I think you should scrap the equivalent laws in Shimla, Dehradun and other other fairly developed districts of HP, UK and Assam as well.
        Oh, i don't know about scrapping article 370 yet. For now it remains a slogan. We looked into its feasibility a while ago and concluded the numbers in the upper house weren't there. In addition the requirement of constituent assembly was brought up.

        This govt has been creating all sorts of expectations, i hope they meet some of them.
        Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Dec 14,, 17:55.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by commander View Post
          Recently in West Bengal state in India an entire village tried to protect a bunch of terrorists that were making bombs and were killing Indians.
          That is not true.
          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

          Comment


          • #95
            DE, even though your post wasn't addressed to me, I'm taking the liberty of answering a few points.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            The people in the valley went with the boys and kicked up a stink. They've been on the receiving end for a long time now. Can those perceptions be addressed or not ?
            All political. If Kashmiris have a problem, they can do a hunger-strike in-front of the Parliament. In essence, they need to talk. Picking up guns, killing innocents and becoming Pakistani stooges is what has earned them the kicks they get. A grenade blast in Kashmir gets international attention, scores of people killed in NE doesn't get any prime-time slot on National TV. They know that and react as such. If militancy in Kashmir was a home-grown one, maybe perceptions could have been addressed by catering to the demands of the rebellious crowd. Since it's funded by Pakistan, I doubt any solution is there in the near term.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            So you see i'm not condemning Modi for his actions (yet) unlike some in this thread.
            It's a choice. I used mine, even though personally I'm a fan of Mr. Modi and his policies. The Armed Forces are apolitical, I'd like to see they remain as such.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            The comparison between AFSPA & SOFA was made loosely in terms of legal protection for operating in a troubled area. When or Why does an army require such to operate within its own borders ?
            Good question.

            4. Special powers of the armed forces.—Any commissioned officer, warrant officer, non commissioned officer or any other person of equivalent rank in the armed forces may, in a disturbed area :—

            (a) if he is of opinion that it is necessary so to do for the maintenance of public order, after giving such due warning as he may consider necessary, fire upon or otherwise use force; even to the causing of death, against any person who is acting in contravention of any law or order for the time being in force in the disturbed area prohibiting the assembly of five or more persons or the carrying of weapons or of things capable of being used as weapons or of fire-arms, ammunition or explosive substances;


            You can read the rest here.

            This is why the killing of the two guys in Kashmir was an unfortunate incident, and those guys of RR shouldn't have been blamed or prosecuted.


            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            Have to create these legal instruments so as to protect the people there otherwise, rights, freedom, justice and whatever else we hold dear becomes meaningless without security. Whether AFSPA stays or goes is the army's call. They have the task of protecting those areas.
            Agree. How? Maybe closer co-operation between the Army and the civilians of disturbed areas. RR are doing a fine job in my District organizing blood donation camps, building toilets etc.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            India's way of dealing with insurgencies is to defeat them militarily and then politically co-opt the adversary. These people then run their own rackets are corrupt as anything and deliver little to the citizen that voted for them.
            Agree.

            Do remember, there is nothing like a complete win for the State incase of an insurgency. One or some will always be left out from prosecution or the hail of bullets, so they can be used in future for political gains. Both Central & State, government & agencies ensure such.

            Why and how did the Bodo militancy come into being?
            Last edited by Oracle; 13 Dec 14,, 19:22.
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              That is not true.
              Then my newspaper was wrong then. Last I read, the police team that went in to arrest those terrorists were pelted with stones, bombs thrown at, beaten . Even a top cop was seriously injured among many. Care to shed some light on it maybe ?

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                Why not? Thought police is a billion times more scary than terrorists.

                Physically aiding and abetting? You've don't got laws dealing with that? Staying quiet? That's called freedom.
                "Thought police" , haha sounds something out of a sci-fi movie like Minority report. Although I agree too much policing is an issue but we have to agree without a certain amount of policing the real face of humans shows itself which is not all dandy.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by commander View Post
                  For example this guy,

                  ISIS twitter account operator ‘Mehdi’ arrested in Bangalore

                  Eventhough he is not physically fighting in Syria I say treat this SOB properly and make an example of him.
                  "Make an example of him"? Maybe you have got the whole concept of justice wrong. Guilty folks are punished legally, they are not tortured. though nothing would please me more than taking a blunt knife and skinning these people slowly, allowing the government a hint of that power means that soon you are hanging upside down from the ceiling of a a police "enhanced interrogation" cell and being beaten to an inch of your life, till you sign your property away to some local politician.
                  "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by antimony View Post
                    "Make an example of him"? Maybe you have got the whole concept of justice wrong. Guilty folks are punished legally, they are not tortured. though nothing would please me more than taking a blunt knife and skinning these people slowly, allowing the government a hint of that power means that soon you are hanging upside down from the ceiling of a a police "enhanced interrogation" cell and being beaten to an inch of your life, till you sign your property away to some local politician.
                    lol bro.. calm down.. I am not saying we should torture this guy... I only said he should be made an example of him so that anyone even for fun wants to back terrorists will think 10 times before they do so.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by commander View Post
                      "Thought police" , haha sounds something out of a sci-fi movie like Minority report.
                      They're real. They were called the Red Guards in China.

                      Originally posted by commander View Post
                      Although I agree too much policing is an issue but we have to agree without a certain amount of policing the real face of humans shows itself which is not all dandy.
                      I hate you lot. Yeah, I saw Joe Jihadi last night. Yeah, he was bitching about bombing you lot. So what? You lot make me sick. What I ain't going to tell you shit what I knew about Joe Jihadi. What? Just because I'm friends with Joe that you're going to torture me?

                      What I can't tell you I hate your guts? What law is there that I must stop hating you?
                      Chimo

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by commander View Post
                        lol bro.. calm down.. I am not saying we should torture this guy... I only said he should be made an example of him so that anyone even for fun wants to back terrorists will think 10 times before they do so.
                        That is courts and prison sentences are for
                        "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                          All political. If Kashmiris have a problem, they can do a hunger-strike in-front of the Parliament. In essence, they need to talk. Picking up guns, killing innocents and becoming Pakistani stooges is what has earned them the kicks they get. A grenade blast in Kashmir gets international attention, scores of people killed in NE doesn't get any prime-time slot on National TV. They know that and react as such. If militancy in Kashmir was a home-grown one, maybe perceptions could have been addressed by catering to the demands of the rebellious crowd. Since it's funded by Pakistan, I doubt any solution is there in the near term.
                          This is very broad, i'm referring to the boys who got killed and the day after i get to see an entire page in the paper with a father asking for justice and going to the street.

                          Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                          It's a choice. I used mine, even though personally I'm a fan of Mr. Modi and his policies. The Armed Forces are apolitical, I'd like to see they remain as such.

                          Good question.

                          4. Special powers of the armed forces.—Any commissioned officer, warrant officer, non commissioned officer or any other person of equivalent rank in the armed forces may, in a disturbed area :—

                          (a) if he is of opinion that it is necessary so to do for the maintenance of public order, after giving such due warning as he may consider necessary, fire upon or otherwise use force; even to the causing of death, against any person who is acting in contravention of any law or order for the time being in force in the disturbed area prohibiting the assembly of five or more persons or the carrying of weapons or of things capable of being used as weapons or of fire-arms, ammunition or explosive substances;


                          You can read the rest here.

                          This is why the killing of the two guys in Kashmir was an unfortunate incident, and those guys of RR shouldn't have been blamed or prosecuted.
                          They will remain apolitical. But this reminds me of what we see all too often. We don't let our forces do their job. Cops can act so long as the political bosses consent, otherwise they will be transferred for insubordination. There is always this element of interference. The same thing could be said to have happened here. Whether it continues or is temporary remains to be seen. This time the excuse is the elections, what will it be next time.

                          Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                          Agree. How? Maybe closer co-operation between the Army and the civilians of disturbed areas. RR are doing a fine job in my District organizing blood donation camps, building toilets etc.

                          Do remember, there is nothing like a complete win for the State incase of an insurgency. One or some will always be left out from prosecution or the hail of bullets, so they can be used in future for political gains. Both Central & State, government & agencies ensure such.
                          State formation is complete the borders are more or less defined and cannot be altered.

                          What about nation building. When one asks whether Kashmir or the NE feel or should want to be in India. What is their identity. This is where Article 370 comes in and it is thought that removing it will complete the nation building aspect with Kashmir. Whether that is true or not is up for debate.

                          Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                          Why and how did the Bodo militancy come into being?
                          Too many outsiders moving in. Can go as far back to the annexation of Assam by the British.

                          It was only in 1826 that Assam ceded to the British Dominion under the aegis of the Treaty of Yandabu which was a logical corollary of the Anglo Burmese War.

                          This annexation of Assam has always been seen as the cause behind the enormously fierce and independent minded swathes of Assam's populace.
                          Source

                          So should we prevent land ownership by outsiders in Assam now. See, how this reverberates back when people from your region migrate to the rest of India. Maybe its a good idea not to broadcast this too widely as it can be seen as inciting.
                          Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Dec 14,, 03:56.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by commander View Post
                            Then my newspaper was wrong then. Last I read, the police team that went in to arrest those terrorists were pelted with stones, bombs thrown at, beaten . Even a top cop was seriously injured among many. Care to shed some light on it maybe ?
                            Yes, the police arrest was resisted, but that wasn't an entire village doing so. Read the whole report instead of the headlines. Let me know if you want me to get that article for you, or you can google.
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                            Comment


                            • @DE

                              There is no need to play the devils advocate when there's no need.

                              The kashmiris, the nagas and other rebels aren't stupid. They know exactly their position in geopolitics. Those positions will not change whether 370 or 371A stays or go's.

                              Btw, the indian state does not need numbers in any house to strengthen its union. I tried to explain this to you before but you seem to stick to randomly changing opinions and articles on the internet than basic logic.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                This is very broad, i'm referring to the boys who got killed and the day after i get to see an entire page in the paper with a father asking for justice and going to the street.
                                Unfortunate. Parents will remain parents, and would always seek justice for their wards whatever crime they might have committed. There are grievances I agree, but then good parenting is an absolute necessity in disturbed areas. Like the father advising his son to stop at army barricade and let the army check his ID and vehicle. I have gone through this a lot, with a smile.

                                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                They will remain apolitical. But this reminds me of what we see all too often. We don't let our forces do their job. Cops can act so long as the political bosses consent, otherwise they will be transferred for insubordination. There is always this element of interference. The same thing could be said to have happened here. Whether it continues or is temporary remains to be seen. This time the excuse is the elections, what will it be next time.
                                Agree, however, I think it's the Police that is being stopped from doing their job. Punjab is an example. A Police force separated from political leanings can do wonders. If it was a case of HR violations by RR guys, the matter should have been in court now. It takes time. But those RR guys were made an example within days. For Mr. Modi that was the best sales pitch. It will set a very wrong precedent with the Omars and the Lones and Sayyeds demanding it everytime an incident happens. Rich political harvest.

                                Btw, next time it would be business as usual. The para-military guys won't be prosecuted, since they act under AFSPA. And Modi would realise that the sales pitch was to become his worst nightmare.

                                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                State formation is complete the borders are more or less defined and cannot be altered.
                                There are tensions running high in border areas between Assam and Nagaland. Mind you, Assam shares its border with 6 other NE states.

                                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                What about nation building. When one asks whether Kashmir or the NE feel or should want to be in India. What is their identity. This is where Article 370 comes in and it is thought that removing it will complete the nation building aspect with Kashmir. Whether that is true or not is up for debate.
                                Again, good questions.

                                Nation building requires a sense of responsibility of all citizens concerned and not picking up guns. Demand from those in power for what they need - roads, power, jobs and help the administration in achieving those, and kicking out from office those who do not perform. No one is stopping the Nagas or the Bodos to stage a dharna in Delhi and being heard.

                                The identity is Indian. In this case it is not upto Kashmiris or the people of NE to decide whether they want to be with India. These are strategically important landscapes. It's the habit, that is bad. The GoI wakes up after an incident, there are no procedures in place to prevent those.

                                Removal of Article 370 - well, if rest of India cannot buy land in Kashmir how do the population assimilate? The equation should be simple and straight, if Kashmiris don't want people from other regions, then they should stay within Kashmir. And it applies for NE too. Why can't a Tamilian or a North Indian buy land in my beautiful town? I own one here. As I said before, this is discrimination. These stupid law needs to go.

                                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                Too many outsiders moving in. Can go as far back to the annexation of Assam by the British.
                                Who are those outsiders? Illegal immigrants from Bangladesh? How did these illegals buy land in Assam? The Bodos woke up one day to find their land gone? Bullshit. You can know from Newspapers as much as the people want to say. Bodo militancy was the creation of the IB to counter the growing threat of ULFA. No proof, but this is what most people who have followed militancy in Assam swears by. In my district ULFA or the Bodos do not have any base or threat, it's DHD and NSCN. And right now there are 3/4 other lesser known groups active. Illegal immigrant is an issue economically. If all the illegals are deported back, the Bodos would rake another issue and keep the fires burning, maybe by killing a few Bihari labourers. When they are done with Biharis, they would fight with other ethnic tribes, until all are done.

                                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                So should we prevent land ownership by outsiders in Assam now.
                                No. Migrants, generally are hard-working people. They bring with them a lot of knowledge. If you want you can buy land in Guwahati, Silchar, Dibrugarh etc. In Assam, I believe only 2 district has this stupid rule.

                                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                See, how this reverberates back when people from your region migrate to the rest of India. Maybe its a good idea not to broadcast this too widely as it can be seen as inciting.


                                Have I ever said anything that made you think I don't want people from the rest of India in Assam? Inciting?
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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