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21 killed as terrorists stage serial attacks to disrupt Kashmir polls

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  • commander
    replied
    Originally posted by cataphract View Post
    Do you think "real terrorists" walk around with tags on their foreheads reading "real terrorist"? The real world isn't quite as simple. After 2001, many innocent men who had nothing to do with Al Qaeda and Taliban were trawled up in Afghanistan and tortured in Guantanamo. A real miscarriage of justice.
    Did I say that CIA can run around torturing all the people it can lay it's eye's on? I only talked about the terrorists, don't twist my words. Again IF they are terrorists they deserve the kind of treatment they received. Period. Not the innocent one's.

    Leave a comment:


  • cataphract
    replied
    Originally posted by commander View Post
    Antimony, hence I have highlighted only if they were terrorists. Those scums kill innocent women, children just so they can terrorize. I don't mind how the terrorists (read: real terrorists) are treated.
    Do you think "real terrorists" walk around with tags on their foreheads reading "real terrorist"? The real world isn't quite as simple. After 2001, many innocent men who had nothing to do with Al Qaeda and Taliban were trawled up in Afghanistan and tortured in Guantanamo. A real miscarriage of justice.

    Leave a comment:


  • antimony
    replied
    Originally posted by commander View Post
    and you would rather treat Kasab's with Biriyani's and kebab's ?
    I think I very specifically said no to that.

    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    I am not saying that they should be given teddy bears at night and chocolate milk by day
    Originally posted by commander View Post
    I get your point AM, it's human nature to abuse any kind of power if he knows he can get away with it. Even a peon in my local panchayat (village) office will ask for bribe for me to see the VAO. So it's not about how much power but rather the power itself that can be abused no matter how small it is. You gotta appoint right men for the right job and pray as hell they don't abuse their given powers.
    No, right men will get corrupted the moment checks and balances are removed. The only solution is to make the systems themselves immune to corruption. NO Torture, install CCTV cameras in stations that can be reviewed by courts if SHTF.

    Leave a comment:


  • commander
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    I have to check myself all the time when it comes to bad guys. I will shed no tears for their demise but I rather just put a bullet in them rather than make them suffer. I have this real fear. If I enjoy watching bad men suffer, I just might enjoy watching good men suffer. I rather not take that chance.
    But Sir,

    Weren't these terrorists treated that way to extract information from them iirc ? If you kill them then you are at a loss aren't you ? I am not saying we just keep on treating them that way if they are of no value/use. You have no other way to deal with these hard trained , brain washed terrorists. I only see the good that comes out of it. Hundreds of lives maybe even thousands of innocent men,women,children could be saved. For the greater good I won't mind mind getting our hands dirty.

    Leave a comment:


  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by commander View Post
    Those scums kill innocent women, children just so they can terrorize. I don't mind how the terrorists (read: real terrorists) are treated.
    I have to check myself all the time when it comes to bad guys. I will shed no tears for their demise but I rather just put a bullet in them rather than make them suffer. I have this real fear. If I enjoy watching bad men suffer, I just might enjoy watching good men suffer. I rather not take that chance.

    Leave a comment:


  • commander
    replied
    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    I repeat, any extra judicial power (like torture) given to anyone will be abused, against those who are not meant to be abused. It is not a question of if. It is a question of how often and against how many. We now have unspeakable tortures and custodial deaths in India where torture is not legal. What do you think will happen if any semblance of legality is given to it? How do you think politicians, policemen and such fine upstanding authorities will resort to when they have to resolve their private, land, property disputes?
    and you would rather treat Kasab's with Biriyani's and kebab's ?

    I get your point AM, it's human nature to abuse any kind of power if he knows he can get away with it. Even a peon in my local panchayat (village) office will ask for bribe to let me see the VAO. So it's not about how much power but rather the power itself that can be abused no matter how small it is. You gotta appoint right men for the right job and pray as hell they don't abuse their given powers.
    Last edited by commander; 12 Dec 14,, 20:53.

    Leave a comment:


  • antimony
    replied
    Originally posted by commander View Post
    Antimony, hence I have highlighted only if they were terrorists. Those scums kill innocent women, children just so they can terrorize. I don't mind how the terrorists (read: real terrorists) are treated. Saying that I do understand too much power corrupts any great mind over time. We have recently done away with Article 309 without so much so an debate on it. So I am hopeful more HR reforms are on it's ways and many british era laws will be shown their place in coffin.
    I repeat, any extra judicial power (like torture) given to anyone will be abused, against those who are not meant to be abused. It is not a question of if. It is a question of how often and against how many. We now have unspeakable tortures and custodial deaths in India where torture is not legal. What do you think will happen if any semblance of legality is given to it? How do you think politicians, policemen and such fine upstanding authorities will resort to when they have to resolve their private, land, property disputes?

    Leave a comment:


  • commander
    replied
    Originally posted by antimony View Post
    Are you serious? You are defending torture. How do you know that they are all terrorists, they are not even being given trials. The US is releasing some of them from time to time due to lack of any evidence that these are hardcore terrorists.

    I am not saying that they should be given teddy bears at night and chocolate milk by day, but each time you give the govt. extra judicial powers, you dig a hole for yourselves. You assume that they will use it for "bad people", they will find a way to use it against all. See what is happening due to police militarization across the US, what was supposed to be used in hardcore drug wars is now being used against protesters and journalists.

    I will say this though, what the CIA labels as torture is chickenshit compared to what our police does to people under their custody. That goes to show how much more fucked up our own legal and justice system is.
    Antimony, hence I have highlighted only if they were terrorists. Those scums kill innocent women, children just so they can terrorize. I don't mind how the terrorists (read: real terrorists) are treated. Saying that I do understand too much power corrupts any great mind over time. We have recently done away with Article 309 without so much so an debate on it. So I am hopeful more HR reforms are on it's ways and many british era laws will be shown their place in coffin.

    Leave a comment:


  • antimony
    replied
    Originally posted by commander View Post
    I agree, but in my personal opinion though, if the CIA had indeed only tortured the terrorists then I wouldn't mind whatever way they treat those scum's. They are terrorists after all.
    Are you serious? You are defending torture. How do you know that they are all terrorists, they are not even being given trials. The US is releasing some of them from time to time due to lack of any evidence that these are hardcore terrorists.

    I am not saying that they should be given teddy bears at night and chocolate milk by day, but each time you give the govt. extra judicial powers, you dig a hole for yourselves. You assume that they will use it for "bad people", they will find a way to use it against all. See what is happening due to police militarization across the US, what was supposed to be used in hardcore drug wars is now being used against protesters and journalists.

    I will say this though, what the CIA labels as torture is chickenshit compared to what our police does to people under their custody. That goes to show how much more fucked up our own legal and justice system is.

    Leave a comment:


  • commander
    replied
    Originally posted by lemontree View Post
    I like, many others have good reason to hate it.
    The actions of the Govt in the past 6 months, seem to have turned even the ardent supports of this govt into sceptics.
    Other nations wage war on other nations, while our govt wages war on its on citizens.
    Care to explain more on this Captain ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Double Edge
    replied
    Originally posted by commander View Post
    We have seen in almost all elections in 2014 that a higher voter turnout meant it was favourable for the BJP. Hopefully BJP atleast manages to win a near majority if not absolute majority.
    That would indeed be a welcome surprise but the article alluded to the opposite reason for higher turnouts in certain areas. Will take more research to understand the results which will be announced on Dec 23.

    If Modi can appeal to the young of Kashmir who are the main reason behind his victory elsewhere then the BJP might come out better.

    Those kids who ran through the check point were young people.

    Originally posted by lemontree View Post
    I like, many others have good reason to hate it.
    The actions of the Govt in the past 6 months, seem to have turned even the ardent supports of this govt into sceptics.
    Other nations wage war on other nations, while our govt wages war on its on citizens.
    Kashmir is an insurgency. Militaries role is to fight foreign enemies. By turning military into police insurgents succeed in turning military against the people. This has to be countered.

    Unfortunately, in this incident the military got the short end of the stick. Bear in mind that the people have been on that path for much longer.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Dec 14,, 12:32.

    Leave a comment:


  • lemontree
    replied
    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    LT hates present government.
    I like, many others have good reason to hate it.
    The actions of the Govt in the past 6 months, seem to have turned even the ardent supports of this govt into sceptics.
    Other nations wage war on other nations, while our govt wages war on its on citizens.

    Leave a comment:


  • lemontree
    replied
    Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
    I would say we need to drastically increase our capability to hit back. Militarily and covertly. When they carry out an attack like this, they should expect IA artillery to open up all along the LoC and IB and wipe out any PA target within range. I'm sure there are plenty. Those with a high likelihood of senior PA officers being present should be shown some special love. Unfortunately, we don't have anywhere near the kind of firepower we would need to completely overwhelm the PA and blunt the inevitable counter attacks by their artillery.
    We have more than enough arty resources, but so does the PA. Arty duels are nothing more than pissing contests. We will only end up hurting our own civilians. If you have ever visited the LOC/ IB in the J&K then you will see the close proximity of civilian habitation on both sides of the border.

    Our response needs to be disproportionate and really hurt the PA in terms of men and money. How we can do that with current resources is something you can answer much better than me, if it is even possible. Of course we'd still need a government with the balls to actually sign the order to do something like this, even if we had the resources needed.
    It is the covert capability that needs to be acquired to achieve any strategic reach and meaning, and I have told you before the reason why we don't have it now. It is for that reason that MMS could not hit back in 2008 after the 26/11 attacks.

    We also need to grow some serious covert attack capabilities inside Pakistan. We are starting from scratch here, so this is not going to happen in the near future, but better to start now than never. I have some hopes on this front because of Ajit Doval. The man seems to have a clear understanding of what we are up against having been in the thick of things during his years in the IB. He was personally involved in several covert ops as a field agent nd also headed IB's operations wing. Appointing him as NSA was one of the best decisions Modi made. Let's see if he delivers.
    Ajit Doval cannot do anything as the present govt is seen as an anti-Muslim party by region. Motivating groups in Pakistan will need a great effort.

    Leave a comment:


  • Firestorm
    replied
    Originally posted by lemontree View Post
    The solution lies in creation of Baluchistan and assisting the Shias in Gilgit-Baltistan. This will neuter the Pak Army to a large extent and reduce (not end) the animosity. We need to reduce their capability to hit back.
    I would say we need to drastically increase our capability to hit back. Militarily and covertly. When they carry out an attack like this, they should expect IA artillery to open up all along the LoC and IB and wipe out any PA target within range. I'm sure there are plenty. Those with a high likelihood of senior PA officers being present should be shown some special love. Unfortunately, we don't have anywhere near the kind of firepower we would need to completely overwhelm the PA and blunt the inevitable counter attacks by their artillery.

    Our response needs to be disproportionate and really hurt the PA in terms of men and money. How we can do that with current resources is something you can answer much better than me, if it is even possible. Of course we'd still need a government with the balls to actually sign the order to do something like this, even if we had the resources needed.

    We also need to grow some serious covert attack capabilities inside Pakistan. We are starting from scratch here, so this is not going to happen in the near future, but better to start now than never. I have some hopes on this front because of Ajit Doval. The man seems to have a clear understanding of what we are up against having been in the thick of things during his years in the IB. He was personally involved in several covert ops as a field agent nd also headed IB's operations wing. Appointing him as NSA was one of the best decisions Modi made. Let's see if he delivers.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 12 Dec 14,, 08:16.

    Leave a comment:


  • lemontree
    replied
    Originally posted by ambidex View Post
    But we all missing a very crucial aspect when addressing this whole issue of Kashmir problem. I was about take this whole debate to a tangent using Modi's bold effort of political mobilization (him being a polarizing figure or political genius) by asking a question to all on what their inputs are to solve this Kashmir problem.
    The Kashmir problem lies in the following:-
    - Strategic location for origin of rivers watering Pakistan.
    - Pakistan's obsession since 1947 as it was a Muslim majority state. (They refuse to agree that the Royal Principalities were free to choose India or Pakistan if they were on the border).
    - British encouragement - Gilgit was handed over to Pakistan when the Commandant of the Gilgit Scouts, Major Brown was British to revolt against Raja Hari Singh and raise the Pakistani flag. he was awarded the MBE for this task.
    - Pakistan wants to avenge Bangladesh.

    There can be no political solution as long as the Pak Army takes the decisions.
    The solution lies in creation of Baluchistan and assisting the Shias in Gilgit-Baltistan. This will neuter the Pak Army to a large extent and reduce (not end) the animosity. We need to reduce their capability to hit back.

    Making Jammu / Ladhak different states will not prevent Pak from pushing jihadis and killing Indians.

    These are my thoughts.

    Leave a comment:

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