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21 killed as terrorists stage serial attacks to disrupt Kashmir polls

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  • #16
    Please answer my previous question why you do not have trust in Army court inquiry ?

    Originally posted by lemontree View Post
    You don't have to believe me, but you may trust Ajau Shukla's word
    Broadsword: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social media
    ''Whats app message ruining around in army circles of some unknown solider''. It can not go more superfluous than this. May be the message is spread by friends and relatives of those court-martial soldiers. People can react this way when their rozi roti (bread and butter) is snatched from them.

    Why is it wrong to question Modi for his actions?
    What action, asking army to set an inquiry and do prompt justice ?

    We abused Manmohan Singh when he did not take decisions.
    Now you are abusing Modi because he is taking decisions? The decisions, which by legal jurisprudence of any country ensures right to justice and right to live? BTW please point us to your posts where you have been critical of UPA-2 or UPA-1.

    He is the only PM who has visited Kashmir for 5 or 4 time since his becoming PM. It is evident that he knows what he is doing and what kind of script he is following.

    He is interacting with Kashmiris from the position of strength, at the same time Kashmiris may be perceiving him as butcher of Gujarat too. If he is pleasing them by going extra mile, at the same time they know he can be mean and punishing too. He has got the mandate of people the same mandate you favorite Congress-I used to make good or bad political decision.


    We shall do the same if Modi makes mistakes. He cannot afford a learning curve as far as Kashmir is concerned.
    You can not be wrong on many accounts in a single thread. Army is subservient to politics of this country. Army endured every wrong political decision on its chest with grace. No word was uttered.

    Furthermore BJP has far more better think tank and a team giving it inputs since pre-nuclear test times, than trolls like Ajai Shukla. Ajai Shukla can not organize a fuck but BJP has ran biggest ever election campaign successfully.

    It is only congress-I apologist who are compulsive detractor of this government, are everyday giving a new spin to every decision made by them.

    The same Ajai Shukla just few days back was calling New Defence minister as minister of procurement who only signs the contracts. He forgot that a year or two back he was crying like a child against JV with Israal for FMBT and up gradation of present tanks, as they will be learning from us on our money. When the truth was, Israel's MIC is far more advance than India's. He is the same person who tried to distract decision making on Rafale by pitching F-35 when it was never offered to us, till today.

    You talk about learning curve but since day one of this government I have been observing the same suspects issuing certificates to Modi government. If there is a learning curve then there should be a grace period given to the government before one can issue the certificate on mistake.

    You POV on zero error syndrome may be right or may be an exaggeration (given the kind of operation was mounted against those Pakistani infiltrators and they all were taken care of) but is a mere Soilder's POV, there are larger resources at stakes which needs to be looked after as well.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ambidex View Post
      It is only congress-I apologist who are compulsive detractor of this government, are everyday giving a new spin to every decision made by them.

      The same Ajai Shukla just few days back was calling New Defence minister as minister of procurement who only signs the contracts. He forgot that a year or two back he was crying like a child against JV with Israal for FMBT and up gradation of present tanks, as they will be learning from us on our money. When the truth was, Israel's MIC is far more advance than India's. He is the same person who tried to distract decision making on Rafale by pitching F-35 when it was never offered to us, till today
      Opposition's job is to oppose, every now & then they have a point. Got a heavy dose of it in the last govt. The same people that oppose propose when they are in power.

      But the govt lies, the opposition lies and only you if you are aware and alert can spot the BS. I don't pay much attention to what either says because its just politics rather than policy. The media isn't too interested in pointing out what matters, only a few do. Most of the time they are busy playing opposition's mouth peice.

      Democracy is messy but its the best we have.
      Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Dec 14,, 16:14.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by lemontree View Post
        The officer who was died, was not the CO but the second-in-command of 24 Punjab, who led the QRT to flush out the terrorists.
        A brave officer who volunteered to serve with his battalion in field environment, even though he was medically not required to due to an earlier battle injury in 2003.



        I have not posted regarding the Badgam check post incident as some of my compatriots would think that I'm on an anti-Modi rant.
        The army circles are furious as the Govt ordered the Army to take the blame and for the deaths to two teens last month. These teens broke through 2 barricades in their car and refused to stop at a check-post that made the RR troops open fire - this is standard SOP.

        In Uri, the sentries at the gate of 31 Medium Regt did not open fire at the approaching terrorist vehicle due to caution imposed on them by the govt.
        This is what happens when stupid politicians give stupid orders. Why I blame the PM? ...it is because he is running a one man show.
        That last part is from the Ajai Shukla article posted later right? The problem is that there seems to be no evidence of the terrorists coming in a vehicle. They seemed to have trekked there and atacked on foot. Ajai Shukla mentions an anonymous Whatsapp message as his source

        In the bitter WhatsApp message, an unidentified officer has directly held his top commanders responsible for the Uri debacle.

        “As per reports, soldiers on the sentry duty on the army camp [at Uri], did not fire upon the approaching terrorist vehicle due to caution imposed on them after the Anantnag incident (sic)”, says the WhatsApp message.

        The message goes on: “When [the] Anantnag incident took place last month, corps commander of 15 corps and Army Commander of Northern Command had both called it a mistake… Should not the Army Cdr (commander) and Corps cdr (commander) consider resigning for this goof up (sic).”

        "Now, what do they have to say? They had betrayed their own soldiers, who became cautious and the result is for everyone to see.”
        We don't even know if this is from an actual armyman or just someone (rightfully) pissed off at what hapened and desperate to understand why it happened.

        Ajai Shukla also writes this:

        Says Lieutenant General Syed Ata Hasnain, a highly regarded former corps commander in Srinagar: “It is unfair to blame top commanders for demanding restraint. Every officers knows exactly what restraint implies; and it does not restrict legitimate use of force against militants.”

        Neither do accounts of the Uri strike support the view that soldiers’ were operationally restrained. The attack began at 3 a.m., a time when civilian movement is totally banned and every stranger is considered suspicious.
        So lets be sure of what exactly happened before we start apportioning blame. No reason to trust Ajai Shukla completely when even he isn't sure about his own sources.


        Secondly, if we want to criticize the new government, we can criticize them on the fact that their reaction to such incidents isn't much different from the last govt., aside from maybe heavier cross-border firing. We can never stop 100% of such attacks adn we can never seal every inch of the border. As long as we keep fighting this war on our soil, the enemy will always enjoy the element of surprise and our casualties will continue to mount. We have to find some way of taking the fight into pakistani territory and causing massive casualties there. The current govt. does not have any answers in this regard any more than the previous one.
        Last edited by Firestorm; 08 Dec 14,, 22:59.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
          Opposition's job is to oppose, every now & then they have a point. Got a heavy dose of it in the last govt. The same people that oppose propose when they are in power.

          But the govt lies, the opposition lies and only you if you are aware and alert can spot the BS. I don't pay much attention to what either says because its just politics rather than policy. The media isn't too interested in pointing out what matters, only a few do. Most of the time they are busy playing opposition's mouth peice.

          Democracy is messy but its the best we have.
          Cliche and more cliche.

          Indian is a country in election mode every change of season. If elections are driving the momentum of progress or are shakers and movers of political inertia then let it be. There is nothing wrong in it.

          As far as opposing for sake of opposing is concern then there shouldn't lecture given on when the same opposition is opposed. See the natural order of things, we get trapped into 'circle in proving'.

          Having said that my point remains the same focusing on the topic in hand and accusations made against present government that it raises more questions than answers against both sides. Furthermore there should be some time given before the conclusions are made. There can be many issues where conclusions are ready made, like the one for what our Parliament got stalled. I am all for the opposition making sure such derogatory language is not used by the law makers.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by ambidex View Post
            He is the same person who tried to distract decision making on Rafale by pitching F-35 when it was never offered to us, till today.
            A Nov 3, 2011 article - U.S. open to selling F-35 jet fighters to India
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              Successful elections with high voter turnout is a good enough response i would think. It means these attacks did not and cannot affect facts on the ground.
              Yes.

              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              Opposition's job is to oppose, every now & then they have a point. Got a heavy dose of it in the last govt. The same people that oppose propose when they are in power.

              But the govt lies, the opposition lies and only you if you are aware and alert can spot the BS. I don't pay much attention to what either says because its just politics rather than policy. The media isn't too interested in pointing out what matters, only a few do. Most of the time they are busy playing opposition's mouth peice.

              Democracy is messy but its the best we have.
              Correct. But BJP fans fail to understand that. There have been U-turns by the BJP since it came to power. Many, but I'll give just one example for the time being.
              Will bring back black money in 100 days: BJP chief Rajnath Singh



              And the court-martial of the guys who fired on the car, that didn't stop. It's cheap politics by BJP to gain seats in Kashmir sympathetically, but deep down it would affect the morale of the Armed Forces. Who in the right state of mind speeds down an Army barricade? It's an unfortunate incident, but blaming the Army is wrong, and prosecuting those that did their job is criminal. This is why we have AFSPA in the first place, so that the Army is shielded from prosecution for collateral damage in strife-torn areas. Had this incident occurred during UPA's governance, the internet would have been flooded with hate/vitriolic messages. I don't know how many Indian members here are from terrorist infested areas, I am, and I know AFSPA works. Without AFSPA, the ethnic tribals of the NE would have butchered each other long back.
              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                Ajai Shukla mentions an anonymous Whatsapp message as his source

                We don't even know if this is from an actual armyman or just someone (rightfully) pissed off at what hapened and desperate to understand why it happened.
                The whatsapp message was also posted on my coursemates whatsapp group.
                It really spread like wildfire in most military coursemate groups.

                After the Badgam incident, most of our regimental groups were rife with messages that examples should not be made of the men as the incident was a operation error and not murder. These were written by retired Brigadiers and Generals. But by 27 Nov, as per the Govt instructions 9 men of the 53 RR were found guilty by a COI and directed to face Court Martial and possibly life imprisonment. For what - for following SOP drills in an insurgency area!

                The Northern Army commander is currently addressing the damage done by the two incidents to unit moral by writing to all units. This has also been forwarded on most Army whatsapp groups.

                No reason to trust Ajai Shukla completely when even he isn't sure about his own sources.
                Its not about Ajay Shukla, but about the sentiment that has erupted amongst the units.
                Last edited by lemontree; 09 Dec 14,, 09:21.

                Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  F-35 was never offered in MMRCA tender. Ajai Shukla was trolling even before this report.

                  The report came after six months when India rejected two of US jets and short listed Euro-fighter and Rafale after long, costly and laborious tender process.

                  Having said that InN may buy these jets in future; with a separate tender process; I hope.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Fake message blames Army for Uri attacks

                    “The WhatsApp message is wrong. It appears disgruntled elements are putting out canards in social media. The inputs about soldiers being hesitant or under orders to be defensive are incorrect and have no merit,” an Army officer said.
                    These disgruntled elements spreading treachery should be brought to book.

                    The recent killing of the two youths, who did not stop at two check posts and were fired upon at the third, drew strong reactions in the public and media, compelling Lt Gen Hooda to publicly apologise in order to bring down the people’s anger in the valley.
                    Very right, the army has to coexist with locals, the decision to apologies was right; successful election were priority. The vally has seen many long protests started with minor incidents.

                    “Mistakes will happen. Let me assure you that I have a clear understanding of the difficulties under which we operate and that nobody will be unfairly harmed. This clear message must go out to all units,” he said in a letter to the officers under the northern command.
                    Absolutely, Army knows how to work under pressures and take difficult decisions.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                      Correct. But BJP fans fail to understand that. There have been U-turns by the BJP since it came to power. Many, but I'll give just one example for the time being.
                      Will bring back black money in 100 days: BJP chief Rajnath Singh

                      The thread is not about black money, you can open a new thread to endorse congress-I's new book on BJP's U turns.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                        These disgruntled elements spreading treachery should be brought to book.
                        Soldiers gripe all the time and it would be a stupid charge just because the soldier involved is pissed off. Yeah, he thinks the order is stupid and lets everyone know it ... but he's not disobeying it.

                        Having said that, it would be an extremely poor Officer who does not know where or how this gripe came to be. There might be a bigger picture involved or that the griping soldier don't understand his orders.

                        Bottom line, soldiers have died and some of his pals are blaming the orders. To call this treachery isn't soldiering.
                        Chimo

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          Soldiers gripe all the time and it would be a stupid charge just because the soldier involved is pissed off. Yeah, he thinks the order is stupid and lets everyone know it ... but he's not disobeying it.

                          Having said that, it would be an extremely poor Officer who does not know where or how this gripe came to be. There might be a bigger picture involved or that the griping soldier don't understand his orders.

                          Bottom line, soldiers have died and some of his pals are blaming the orders. To call this treachery isn't soldiering.
                          You could be right otherwise the action might have already taken. It is not a big deal to trace the messages. GoI have pinpointed the origin of SMS before, even originating from foreign lands.

                          Sir, even the time line doesn't matches. As per above link the message came out a week ago and the caution was issued by the army not to pay heed. The attack on Artillery unit in Uri happened on last Friday.

                          Ajay Shukla picked up a News from it and poorly correlated it with the fatalities that happened on Friday. No one has seen the message, May be LT can post that message with the time and date he received.

                          As per media reports the Guy was telling Generals to mind their own business and not poke the nose in the matters of soldiers on duty. The another report says the message was blaming instructions from higher authorities that the terrorist driving over check posts were not engage on very first instance.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                            F-35 was never offered in MMRCA tender. Ajai Shukla was trolling even before this report.

                            The report came after six months when India rejected two of US jets and short listed Euro-fighter and Rafale after long, costly and laborious tender process.

                            Having said that InN may buy these jets in future; with a separate tender process; I hope.
                            So now you know. My post came in response to your post, which is as below:

                            Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                            He is the same person who tried to distract decision making on Rafale by pitching F-35 when it was never offered to us, till today.
                            You said it was never offered to us, which is incorrect.

                            Originally posted by ambidex View Post
                            The thread is not about black money, you can open a new thread to endorse congress-I's new book on BJP's U turns.
                            My point was to offer an insight that not everything the BJP does is right. The BJP right now has fallen short of pre-poll promises, and destroyed the careers of Armymen for electoral gains in J&K.
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                              That last part is from the Ajai Shukla article posted later right? The problem is that there seems to be no evidence of the terrorists coming in a vehicle. They seemed to have trekked there and atacked on foot. Ajai Shukla mentions an anonymous Whatsapp message as his source
                              The DH article had this to say...

                              The WhatsApp message, circulating for the last few days, claims that Pakistan-backed militants entered the Army camp in Uri with relative ease as the sentry did not open fire on remembering the Budgam incident.

                              It also said terrorists entered the Army camp in a vehicle; they actually cut wires of the fence from the direction of the Jhelum river to gain entry.
                              makes sense, these guys would never come in through the front door.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                                So now you know. My post came in response to your post, which is as below: You said it was never offered to us, which is incorrect.
                                Yes it was never offered to us for THAT tender. The tender was over and wrapped, the two jets where short listed.

                                Going by your link's date and as discussed by many senior members at BR it was a gimmickry thrown at us to stall the the further process, supported by lobbyist like A. Shukla. Heck it is already in limbo now.

                                My point was to offer an insight that not everything the BJP does is right. The BJP right now has fallen short of pre-poll promises, and destroyed the careers of Armymen for electoral gains in J&K.
                                BJP's U Turns on black money and Army's court of inquiry resulting few soldiers shown door and quick apology to make elections hassle free (Army's massive responsibility and high priority) doesn't make sense.

                                There have been court martial done and life terms sentenced to Soldiers serving the same state. Your concern was never registered for them. I can guess you might have been rather appreciating the army for doing the justice on those instances.

                                Let me guess again, I am not too sure if it was LT or Tronic, during a conversation with a Pakistani poster 2-3 years back here at WAB, the Indian poster was taking pride in army as an institution who hand over penalties and sentences if a wrong is done unlike PA.

                                My apologies in advance if it was Tronic; for dragging him into this discussion.
                                Last edited by ambidex; 09 Dec 14,, 12:49.

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