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  • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
    And yet the British were not allies of Bose because they did not agree to his demands for independence in the first place. If they had given a bona fide offer of independence prior to WW2, not a dominion status, perhaps the course would be different.
    Several things, Hitesh. The parts of the USSR that rebelled against Stalin and joined Hitler did so only in the first years. They joined in mass against Germany when they learned Hitler was just as bad. At least Stalin was theirs, Hitler was not. The same thing in India. The BIA thought Japan and Germany was worst than Britain.

    Tito fought independently. He had arms but no allied army. He ran a guerrilla war and had success as a guerrilla leader.

    In all aspects, Bose was far more Puyi than Tito.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      As I told Hitesh, my regiments shares honours with the BIA. I will NOT listen to anyone who degrades their service. They saw the same blood in the same mud as my regiment. I will NOT tolerate anyone degrading the blood Indian soldiers have spilled in killing two monsters.

      I will stand proud for them. I will honour them. I will salute them. Even if I am the only one doing so. You can goto hell for all I care. That you deliberately wanting to live under the Imperial Japanese Empire. Because that was your only choice.
      And you are taking the words out of the context. We are not degrading their service or dishonoring them. We honor them through the InA. What is so hard to understand about that? That is our way of honoring them and if that doesn't gel with you, then I guess we are talking past each other. If you want us to honor the BIA in the way you honor your own regiments, then why can't you ask the British to acknowledge and apologize for their crimes, especially after each toast, you say, "God save the Queen"

      If you know of a way of honoring the BIA without paying respect or tribute to the Queen or the Crown or the British Raj, tell us.

      And as for deliberately wanting to live under the Imperial Japanese Empire and being the only choice, I am sorry but that is a gross over simplification and holier than thou attitude that does not hold weight considering the times.

      Look at the Eastern European countries. They were invaded by Germany and Soviet Union rolled the Germans back and in doing so put those countried under the banner of Soviet Union's sphere. Yet those people who fought against the Germans and on the side of the Soviets were celebrated as heroes even though they couldn't stop the Soviet expansion.

      Or take a look at the example of South Africa Army. They earned battle honours during the apartheid era but today you will not find people cheering or honoring that era but of today's era.

      You are missing the point that we are celebrating Bose whose goal was independence and you are looking past that and only see Japanese aggression. Your prejudice is showing.

      You are on my ignore list.
      If you want to ignore SB because he chose to view Bose as a national hero and view the BIA as a necessary tool to rid of the British, then you have to ignore millions of Indians because they share his view of Bose.
      Last edited by Blademaster; 15 May 14,, 13:53.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        Several things, Hitesh. The parts of the USSR that rebelled against Stalin and joined Hitler did so only in the first years. They joined in mass against Germany when they learned Hitler was just as bad. At least Stalin was theirs, Hitler was not. The same thing in India. The BIA thought Japan and Germany was worst than Britain.
        IIRC, there were some non German units that stayed and fought to the bitter end because they view Stalinism worse than Germany and its fascism.

        And in some ways, SU was worse than Germany.

        Tito fought independently. He had arms but no allied army. He ran a guerrilla war and had success as a guerrilla leader.

        In all aspects, Bose was far more Puyi than Tito.
        Ok then he wasn't successful as Tito was but he was trying to get that success. He was no military leader, just a political leader.
        Last edited by Blademaster; 15 May 14,, 13:56.

        Comment


        • Ustashe wanted independent Croatia and sided with Hitler. They got Independent State of Croatia (on paper). Their glorification is banned trough Croatia.
          No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

          To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
            If you know of a way of honoring the BIA without paying respect or tribute to the Queen or the Crown or the British Raj, tell us.
            Damned easy. Say thank you.

            Comment


            • OOE,

              read this link about the INA trials: INA trials - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              and you will find out why INA and Bose received support and recognition in the immediate days after WW2. They even received support from the BIA soldiers who fought against them and against the Japanese.

              Moreover, the INA trials were a catalyst for the revolt of the BIA against the British. So I fail to see your contention how honoring Bose and INA was dishonoring the BIA when the men of BIA revolted to support their INA comrades.
              Last edited by Blademaster; 15 May 14,, 14:10.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                Damned easy. Say thank you.
                And we do through the Army Day, Navy Day, and Air Force Day and their flag raising ceremonies. They still retain their regimental histories. On each day, the President of India issues a statement thanking their services throughout the history.

                Comment


                • what is the talk about bridge language and all that?...its unnecessary and irrelevant

                  indian nationalism is the bridge......ppl can do their bit for the nation with just genuine feelings and devotion to the idea of india without learning a word of hindi.that's the plain truth...my state has been quite hostile to acceptance of hindi and we have done very well.
                  nothing more is needed

                  all this talk about a single language bringing more unity only lies in the imagination of those who have got more narrow and outdated ideas of nationalism(like single language)...but considering the diversity of india, it is perverse and won't work.

                  basically this "learn hindi" is often ill conceived and a source of tensions.All it does is create bad blood

                  1.language is a personal choice...people just do not like intrusions into private choices.

                  2. ppl are proud of their local culture and as such reluctant to allow primacy of any other language.

                  3. I care two hoots whether hindi is spoken in the percentage of 30 or 40% elsewhere.
                  if tamilian wants to learn hindi for reasons of economic expediency or something else,its his choice.
                  but any suggestion we should learn hindi as "national language"(which is factually wrong but many from the north somehow have this view) will be
                  likely treated as rude and hostile ...

                  And that "non hindi speakers" should learn hindi ,because some hindi speakers with narrow ideas of nationalism feel
                  it should be a bridge language, is again a recipe for creating tensions .the twains shall never meet here.That's the reality.basically live and let live is the
                  sensible choice here

                  4.i have worked in the north and made visits to the northernmost states. I am perfectly in one piece and faced no untoward situation.All this fear mongering about tamilians or other non hindi speakers getting eaten up in the north is frankly ill motivated and disgusting.Unless I am interested in hearing the tales of taxi/auto drivers ,sorry I never felt a need to learn hindi from my side.i have spent very late nights in mumbai and pune..i understand not all work and business may be hitech or MNC's and some may involve interaction with local business men or govt office.Even then,this habit of spreading fear needs condemnation.

                  5.oracle 's post about English being better access to opportunities in india and abroad is spot on. the arguments about china or japan being non English is irrelevant.

                  In india, prestigious schools need strong English ability.prestigious companies require strong English ability (for higher paid positions) .books written by scholars are widely available in English. people who have studied local medium have faced immense problems once they reach college level.

                  and where are the decent ranked colleges teaching in local medium?

                  English is a passport to the better colleges and opportunities in india and elsewhere.

                  for a local language to take over, the entire ecosystem has to be changed.

                  I have seen non english countries like france and spain. the history books in les invalids,the dvds of American movies,computer books are all in local language.Not to mention universities and schoalrs who deal in local language. you see French or Spanish everywhere.

                  where is the comparison with an indian urban environment where majority of elites pretty learn math or science in english?

                  would our priority be to establish more research class and better class universities ? or shift to local medium ? the second choice is madness.

                  the current situation is lot of these mushrooming private engineering colleges are set up by dubious elements like criminal politicians and very badly run.very few management have their hearts in the right place.

                  and how many indian universities are in the top ranking lists (save for a IIM A OR ISB)

                  yeah we have time for making math and science local!

                  not to mention English provides wide opportunity for Indians to easily adapt to higher education in the US /abroad and indian entreprenurs have been doing well in places like silicon valley.

                  no disrespect to those who genuinely want to master subjects in their language.but the current ground realities in india suggest your opportunities will be limited with local medium unless you have professions like acting,business in mind.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
                    I think you've been here long enough to know that we need to stick to English only please.

                    Otherwise I have some choice Lucknowi Hindi for Oracle and you as well (my paternal ancestral bloodlines are Lucknowi, unlike your linguistic ones).

                    Let's keep it clean these last 24 hours before counting ends. We all represent India and Bharat and Hindustan here. And just to be clear, keeping it clean refers to keeping your labels such as "right wing Hindu nationalist" to yourself. I have not called you anything but Indian. I expect the same courtesy.
                    It is a joke. If you cannot take it, go ahead and report me to the Mods.

                    If you start using choice Hindi you will not find me lacking.

                    You have called me everything from "out of touch" to "embarrassing" to not being a true Indian, just because I don't agree with you. You have called other Hindu, regardless of whether they want the label or not. So keep that sanctimonious "keep it clean" bullcrap to yourself.

                    You started it.
                    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                    Comment


                    • YoungIndia,

                      I disagree with your point 5. Learning English is not necessary to a better standard of living. Rather, it is a symptom of what is wrong with our society that you have to learn English to do well because it means that you have to go abroad or such to get a better job. That is a myth. I have come across many Indians who do not speak English or Hindi but do very well once they got their basics, ie., good education, good governance, and economic freedom.

                      Mandating that everyone should speak English smacks of elitism and is the very same way as mandating that everyone should speak Hindi. I find the argument to be hypocritical especially when the same person decry the forcing of the hindi language down his throat.

                      There is no problem in learning English but it is not necessary to learn English to work your way through prosperity.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                        As others have said, please stick to English or provide a simultaneous translation. Thank you.
                        TH, It is a joke straight out of Google Translate in response to that Nostradamus post. the translation is right there - Oracle and BladeMaster cussing each other
                        "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                          It is a joke.
                          I did not understand your joke.

                          Please use English next time. Or a simultranslation.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                            IIRC, there were some non German units that stayed and fought to the bitter end because they view Stalinism worse than Germany and its fascism.
                            And they lost.

                            Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                            And in some ways, SU was worse than Germany.
                            Difference for the Ukrainians was that Stalin was home grown. Hitler was not.

                            Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                            Ok then he wasn't successful as Tito was but he was trying to get that success. He was no military leader, just a political leader.
                            No, Bose is not as smart as he thought himself to be. The INA had a workable strategy - insurrection. They wanted avoid set piece battles that had all the advantages belonging to the Brits. They also would have remained independent of the Japanese.

                            Tito understood that. He never had Soviet or British or American advisors in his HQ, let alone running his HQ.

                            The ONLY result from Bose's actions would have been a Puyi Manchuko. If you wanted Tito's Yugoslavia, you can only get it by acting Tito, not Puyi.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
                              I don't know about you guys, but I am not happy or particularly impressed by Modi's (creditable) efforts at speaking a smattering of English during his interview with Arnob.

                              I know he is already a legend at public relations and media management (IIM case study material), but I do fervently hope that Modi sets the trend of making all public speeches, including and especially on foreign soil on state visits, in Hindi.

                              I want to see an Indian Prime Minister do that. I would walk an inch taller were he to make that his policy.
                              SB , although your view point might looks good for you , I think it's not good in my books. Because if you are a Prime minister of a country as vast as India and as diverse in all aspects as India you should represent and speak for all of the countrymen. Like I was saying before English mayn't be THE solution we were looking after but it did provide an easy way out when it came to deciding the national language.

                              More problems would have arised in the long term. Again , this is not a perfect solution but a solution that worked well for us. If anybody says language is purely a reason for one's empowerment then it's wrong and by that going every citizen of USA and other English speaking country should have a job. Language is just one of the many factors.

                              Regarding the resistance towards Hindi , to tell you the truth before Independence there were many in Tamil Nadu who did speak Hindi and had very good ties with Bengal (a very close one than any other state). BUT post independence it was sort of shoved down on every way possible. Hindi could have been a bridging language but they rather made it a case of making it the only language around which is why the whole issue is all about.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                                they became a world power in the early 1900s and they didn't get there by learning English. Russia became a world power and they didn't get there by learning English. China became a world power and they didn't get there by learning English.
                                That's great. Let's establish an industrial base in India, all without any benefit of English. we cannot use any engineers who have studied in English. Let us see how that turns out

                                Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                                Dude, my family has a factory in India and we do a lot of business with them. They speak a bit of English but my brother and his managers had to learn some chinese terminology, words and phrases to do business with them. Their largest internet website companies and making a profit are not using English as the language but Chinese as the language. Sure in the early days of Internet, you had to learn English to code and do stuff but nowadays, that need for English is gone. You can build successful software programs without learning English.
                                I have worked with them recently in the field of IT services. There is a not of effort on their side to train up in english. They have realized that they are losing ground to India in terms of IT services and BPO and are anxious to catch up.

                                Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                                Hey ask Oracle for going there in the first place. If you find that inappropriate perhaps you should tell Oracle to stop bringing up my background up as a basis to attack my arguments. I will defend my background and I will not be made to be ashamed of my background and career. if he thinks my arguments are idiotic and bring my career in the picture, I am well within my rights to prove him wrong. He thinks that by attacking me personally, he can win. If you cannot see that, that is your problem not mine.
                                I am just saying that don't call names. When Oracle did that I pointed that out too
                                "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                                Comment

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