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  • Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    ne,

    That's exactly the good Colonel's point. That PA is tacit agreement with Drone strikes. In any case, if PA is not holding its Officer Corps OR the PAF accountable for failing to protect Pakistan's sovereign airspace or rather stop its regular violation, for which they are accountable under oath, why the bickering to the Yanks at the first place. The USAF is merely serving its own military interests.
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Then the GHQ is guilty of violating your Consitution.
    Technically the PA would be in violation of the constitution if it took military action without authorization from the elected government, and that has been the PA and PAF's official position, that the Pakistani government needs to take the decision on 'shooting down the drones'

    That is an Open Act of War to which surrender is an acceptable legal outcome.
    And why should Pakistan initiate a chain of events in which a militarily superior aggressor would prevail?
    If you don't want to defend your skies or your land against the Taliban, that is fine but don't expect other country's national interests to sit idle when you failed in your own legal responsiblities. If you can't control the rats coming out of your yard, expect your neighbour to throw a few pounds of poison into it.
    The US has not credibly established any 'national interest' being served through its arbitrary and illegal drone strikes in Pakistan.
    Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 11 Apr 13,, 12:36.
    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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    • Originally posted by Tronic View Post
      Nitpicking, but India didn't loose a Heron, it was actually a Searcher-II which was shot down.
      Point being that India does not have the ability to economically or militarily punish Pakistan that the US has, which is why the Pakistani response to an Indian act of aggression would be significantly different from the response to an act of aggression from the US.
      Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
      https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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      • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
        US didn't attacked Iran for shooting down their drone. Nor for engaging another over the water.
        No, but that have continued to tighten diplomatic and economic sanctions on Iran.
        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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        • Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
          What superior radar and SIGINT capabilities? The US doesn't have radar installations in Afghanistan, and it is not F-15's and F-22's backed by AWACS that you are facing. These are solitary Predator drones with no anti-air capability or even an air-search radar for that matter.
          How do you think the US kept tabs on Pakistani air traffic, specifically PAF air traffic, when it was carrying out the OBL raid?

          The rest of your argument/rant is been addressed several times already.
          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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          • Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
            Unsurprisingly, you failed to mention where the Butcher of Bengal, General Tikka Khan was from...
            Does it matter? The top two leadership positions were not Punjabi, which throws Lemontree's 'Punjabi generalizations' into the trash where they belong.
            Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
            https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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            • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
              Technically the PA would be in violation of the constitution if it took military action without authorization from the elected government, and that has been the PA and PAF's official position, that the Pakistani government needs to take the decision on 'shooting down the drones'
              And you believe the world to be confused as to who calls the shot in your said country.

              And why should Pakistan initiate a chain of events in which a militarily superior aggressor would prevail?
              Then it is time for the Pakistani state to just shut up and stop bickering against the militarily superior aggressor.
              The US has not credibly established any 'national interest' being served through its arbitrary and illegal drone strikes in Pakistan.
              And that's for the US to decide whether its 'national interests' are being served by its arbitrary and illegal drone strikes in Pakistan.
              sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

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              • Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                And you believe the world to be confused as to who calls the shot in your said country.
                Doesn't matter - if you and OoE are going to raise 'constitutions and oaths' as an argument, then you have to accept the fact that the constitution and oaths require the military to follow the direction of the elected government.
                Then it is time for the Pakistani state to just shut up and stop bickering against the militarily superior aggressor.
                Why should it shut up? A military response is only one option, preferably the last one - the Pakistani State has so far chosen to follow the diplomatic option and it has achieved some degree of success in that with the UN investigation stating (in a preliminary statement) that US Drone Strikes in Pakistan are violations of international law.
                And that's for the US to decide whether its 'national interests' are being served by its arbitrary and illegal drone strikes in Pakistan.
                For the US to 'decide' unilaterally and without any international sanction or legal justification puts its actions in the same category as the actions of Saddam invading Kuwait and the Nazi's invading Europe.

                Take a look at the latest revelations regarding illegal US Drone strikes in Pakistan:

                http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/04/0...ls-others.html

                http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...ne-war/274839/
                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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                • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                  Technically the PA would be in violation of the constitution if it took military action without authorization from the elected government, and that has been the PA and PAF's official position, that the Pakistani government needs to take the decision on 'shooting down the drones'
                  I didn't know your army is run by the government. All the countries I know need Parliamentary agreement for sending troops abroad. For defense, an order from the COAS or the President would suffice.
                  Besides chain of command is breached if COAS issued order and military never executed it.

                  And why should Pakistan initiate a chain of events in which a militarily superior aggressor would prevail?
                  Why wouldn't it? What kind of message you are sending to India, China, Russia and even Iran by sitting put on the matter?
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                  • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                    I didn't know your army is run by the government. All the countries I know need Parliamentary agreement for sending troops abroad. For defense, an order from the COAS or the President would suffice.
                    Besides chain of command is breached if COAS issued order and military never executed it.
                    I don't believe the COAS can issue orders beyond the mandate granted to him - for example, the government has authorized military operations against the TTP in FATA, so the COAS can issue directions related to those operations.
                    Why wouldn't it? What kind of message you are sending to India, China, Russia and even Iran by sitting put on the matter?
                    The Indians are intelligent enough to realize that Pakistan's relationship with the US is under a completely different set of rules.

                    That said, I completely agree that the PPP led government should be punished in the election for failing to forcefully defend Pakistan's interests, but that is for Pakistanis to address.
                    Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                    https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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                    • Yeah, sure, right. And I supposed the Pakistani Army calls Islamabad for permission to return fire against the Indians every single time.

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                      • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        Yeah, sure, right. And I supposed the Pakistani Army calls Islamabad for permission to return fire against the Indians every single time.
                        Precisely - India is the 'enemy' in that Pakistan has an ongoing territorial dispute with her and the Indians have a massive military deployment across the LoC and IB, ostensibly geared for offensive operations into Pakistan. That situation does not exist with respect to the US, thought it does exist with respect to the Afghan's/ANA.
                        Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                        https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                          Precisely - India is the 'enemy' in that Pakistan has an ongoing territorial dispute with her and the Indians have a massive military deployment across the LoC and IB, ostensibly geared for offensive operations into Pakistan. That situation does not exist with respect to the US, thought it does exist with respect to the Afghan's/ANA.
                          You are actually serious. You are hiding behind "selective" defence. In all my years, I have never heard of such policies AND self defence HAS never required national approval. Otherwise, your 24 dead Pakistani soldiers would never have engaged American ground forces.

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                          • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post

                            Why should it shut up? A military response is only one option, preferably the last one - the Pakistani State has so far chosen to follow the diplomatic option and it has achieved some degree of success in that with the UN investigation stating (in a preliminary statement) that US Drone Strikes in Pakistan are violations of international law.

                            For the US to 'decide' unilaterally and without any international sanction or legal justification puts its actions in the same category as the actions of Saddam invading Kuwait and the Nazi's invading Europe.

                            Take a look at the latest revelations regarding illegal US Drone strikes in Pakistan:
                            So move back Pakistan since you hate us so much and you think we are all a bunch of nazis beating up on your mother country.

                            I couldn't imagine wanting to live in a place like nazi Germany. i would move
                            Attached Files

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                            • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                              So move back Pakistan since you hate us so much and you think we are all a bunch of nazis beating up on your mother country.

                              I couldn't imagine wanting to live in a place like nazi Germany. i would move
                              Ah yes, nothing else left so resort to the 'go someplace else' canard.

                              The problem I have, as articulated in this thread and others, is specifically related to US foreign policy and the manner in which the US Establishment has and is conducting illegal drone strikes in Pakistan - policies and tactics akin to tyrants and thugs like Saddam and the Nazi's.
                              Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                              https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                                You are actually serious. You are hiding behind "selective" defence. In all my years, I have never heard of such policies AND self defence HAS never required national approval. Otherwise, your 24 dead Pakistani soldiers would never have engaged American ground forces.
                                Correct - the soldiers responded after they came under unprovoked fire from US and Afghan forces, and they would respond if they came under fire from a US drone as well, but since US drone strikes don't target Pakistani soldiers, your analogy does not apply.
                                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

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