Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Lt Gen Brar: It was an assassination attempt by 'pro-Khalistan elements'

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    The Kashmiri militants have also resorted to similar techniques, often siezing religious shrines and holding people hostage. The Army had no choice but to storm the shrines often leading to civilian casualities and damage to the shrines. However, the onus lies with the militants who have no qualms in militarizing the shrines, rather than the security forces who have to commit to the thankless job of storming the religious shrines and flushing the militants out. The writ of the state had to be enforced, even if that translates into damaged property and dead people.
    DCL, I disagree. All responsibility of Bluestar falls upon the central government since those militants were nothing but the same government's stooges not 3 years before '84! It was the state's responsibility to disarm the militants, but the central government armed them and provided political cover for them for 2 whole years. The central government dismissed the state government, banned elections, propped up militant fundamentalists like Bhinderenwala against the more popular Sikh moderates, the Akali party, and than when things turned sour, called in the army to take their own stooge out with artillery and tanks in the middle of a crowded city. How can they deny responsibility?

    It's really no surprise that the Khalistani insurgency, which followed OpBluestar, was actually led by groups who were always opposed to and were bitter enemies of Bhinderenwala and the rest of the Golden Temple militants!
    Last edited by Tronic; 03 Oct 12,, 18:03.
    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Tronic View Post
      DCL, I disagree. All responsibility of Bluestar falls upon the central government since those militants were nothing but the same government's stooges not 3 years before '84! It was the state's responsibility to disarm the militants, but the central government armed them and provided political cover for them for 2 whole years. The central government dismissed the state government, banned elections, propped up militant fundamentalists like Bhinderenwala against the more popular Sikh moderates, the Akali party, and than when things turned sour, called in the army to take their own stooge out with artillery and tanks in the middle of a crowded city. How can they deny responsibility?

      It's really no surprise that the Khalistani insurgency, which followed OpBluestar, was actually led by groups who were always opposed to and were bitter enemies of Bhinderenwala and the rest of the Golden Temple militants!
      Tronic,

      We are talking past each other. I have no doubts about the Congress goverment's ill conceived and draconian political gimmicks during those days.
      You are free to put 100% responsibility on the Government and not even 1% on the militants. I'm okay with it.

      However, I'll reiterate that the onus of Operation Blue Star doesn't lies on the security forces who had to commit to the thankless job of storming the shrine and flush out the militants, even if that translated into damaged property and dead people. You may max blame the Indian Army for not planning the operation more meticulously that could lessen the collateral damages. If our countrymen are proud that the InA doesn't indulges or takes political decissions, they must also understand that we are trained and tasked to establish the writ of the state, even if that requires disproportionate force.
      Last edited by Deltacamelately; 04 Oct 12,, 07:08.
      sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
        The point is Major that in both cases, the protesters have stopped being civilians and had become the enemy. Chinese soldiers are human beings. They were trained, indoctrinated to protect the people. They were called the People's Liberation Army. Turning guns on your own people is not any more natural for Chinese soldiers than it was for Indian soldiers.

        Until the protesters stopped being the people and became the enemy. The Chinese protesters spilled first blood and killed first. The regular Chinese soldier lost all inhibition to shoot them soon after that.
        Sir,

        I am afraid using this line of reasoning where mobs turn violent, all such protests could get bracketed with Operation Blue Star. Political protesters turning violent can not be equated with armed militants trained to kill a professional army. I could justify the PLA or the InA opening fire on both such protesters, but the protesters just can not be equated.
        sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
          I am afraid using this line of reasoning where mobs turn violent, all such protests could get bracketed with Operation Blue Star.
          They are. Look at Libya and Syria and even Iran. They started out as protests and proceeded to civil war. The difference with Iran ... and India and China is that they struck before the protesters could have gotten stronger.

          Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
          Political protesters turning violent can not be equated with armed militants trained to kill a professional army.
          Major, both sets of protesters were in no position to challenge the national army. Both sets, however, were aiming to inspire an uprising that could.

          Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
          I could justify the PLA or the InA opening fire on both such protesters, but the protesters just can not be equated.
          Militarily, no, but politically yes. Both sets were dictating terms to the national government. The students when meeting with the CCP trying to diffuse the situation said, "we're not here to negotiate. We're here to tell you what to do." If that didn't anger the CCP into deciding military force, then they should not have been in power.

          One thing I want to make clear, Major. The governments of the West do not consider either Op BLUESTAR and Tianamen Square to be illegal actions.

          Edit to add: In the case of Tianamen, history comes into play. The CCP was borned out of student protest movements. The old guard, especially Deng Xia Peng could recall how they plan their revolution in student group meetings.
          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 04 Oct 12,, 17:33.

          Comment


          • #35
            Tronic,

            We are talking past each other. I have no doubts about the Congress goverment's ill conceived and draconian political gimmicks during those days.
            You are free to put 100% responsibility on the Government and not even 1% on the militants. I'm okay with it.

            However, I'll reiterate that the onus of Operation Blue Star doesn't lies on the security forces who had to commit to the thankless job of storming the shrine and flush out the militants, even if that translated into damaged property and dead people. You may max blame the Indian Army for not planning the operation more meticulously that could lessen the collateral damages. If our countrymen are proud that the InA doesn't indulges or takes political decissions, they must also understand that we are trained and tasked to establish the writ of the state, even if that requires disproportionate force.
            DCL, The question has never been why the security forces assaulted the temple. The question is why did they wait 6 months to do so? Why did they pick the most holiest of days, when the shrine was packed with thousands of pilgrims from around the world? Why did they allow those pilgrims to even enter the temple when they knew they would be shelling that place with artillery the same night?

            The point about militants barricading the temple is well understood and the militants are widely blamed, but that just doesn’t absolve the security forces of responsibility for carrying out such a callous operation which resulted in a massacre of innocent civilians.
            Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
            -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              Militarily, no, but politically yes. Both sets were dictating terms to the national government. The students when meeting with the CCP trying to diffuse the situation said, "we're not here to negotiate. We're here to tell you what to do." If that didn't anger the CCP into deciding military force, then they should not have been in power.
              The students had no other choice. The CCP's behavior was "My way or the highway." They did not even tolerate dissent.


              One thing I want to make clear, Major. The governments of the West do not consider either Op BLUESTAR and Tianamen Square to be illegal actions.
              I am not so sure. After the Tianamen Square happened, China was immediately placed under embargo and sanctions. That means the western governments at that time considered the actions of Tianamen Square to be illegal and immoral.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                I am not so sure. After the Tianamen Square happened, China was immediately placed under embargo and sanctions. That means the western governments at that time considered the actions of Tianamen Square to be illegal and immoral.
                The action was brutal. Over aggressive. Most certainly over-reactive but what law was broken? Martial law was declared days before.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                  DCL, The question has never been why the security forces assaulted the temple. The question is why did they wait 6 months to do so? Why did they pick the most holiest of days, when the shrine was packed with thousands of pilgrims from around the world? Why did they allow those pilgrims to even enter the temple when they knew they would be shelling that place with artillery the same night?

                  The point about militants barricading the temple is well understood and the militants are widely blamed, but that just doesn’t absolve the security forces of responsibility for carrying out such a callous operation which resulted in a massacre of innocent civilians.
                  I sense you suspect foul play. I on my part believe believe that the Military could initiate armed action only after a draft political go ahead, neither before nor after.
                  sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                    I sense you suspect foul play.
                    DCL, I’m not really ‘suspecting’ anything since it doesn’t really matter if it is deliberate foul play or a total indifference; the end result is the same. I mean, we had to agitate and fight for over two decades to even have the basic right of our language to be recognized, before which, the Indian government did not accord Punjabi any status in the constitution and Hindi was being forced in all of Punjab’s schools. The only other state which comes close to this agitation are the Tamils, yet the Tamils revolted despite already having their language recognized and only being asked to adopt Hindi as a secondary language! And that’s just one tiny example!

                    I on my part believe believe that the Military could initiate armed action only after a draft political go ahead, neither before nor after.
                    Well, that’s why you see the central government facing the brunt of the blame, the army is merely an extension of that government.

                    Secondly, I would love to get answers for those questions. The militants had to be killed, but why carry out an operation when civilian casualties would be the highest they could be? They had 6 months! Why not carry it out a week earlier? Or a week later? Why on a holy day when Golden Temple routinely hosts the highest number of pilgrims? The militants had already been choked off from water and food, so why not allow the pilgrims to exit? That's probably one of a kind operation where it was actually the army trapping the civilians in the middle of a planned warzone, rather than militants taking hostages. What's your take on these questions?
                    Last edited by Tronic; 05 Oct 12,, 10:57.
                    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                      The only other state which comes close to this agitation are the Tamils, yet the Tamils revolted despite already having their language recognized and only being asked to adopt Hindi as a secondary language! And that’s just one tiny example!
                      A small correction. TN did not have a problem with Hindi being an "optional" second language course. The agitation was about "compulsory" teaching of Hindi in schools, which btw would also have affected the final scores of students. Even today, students have an option to choose Hindi or Tamil as their second language. And Hindi was/is being taught in private tuition centers all over TN.
                      Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by hammer View Post
                        A small correction. TN did not have a problem with Hindi being an "optional" second language course.The agitation was about "compulsory" teaching of Hindi in schools, which btw would also have affected the final scores of students.
                        That's a given. I can't imagine an agitation being against an 'optional' teaching of a language. My old school (YPS) teaches French as an optional language, while Punjabi University Patiala has Farsi as an optional language. When I say, asked to 'adopt' a secondary language, naturally, it only means having it compulsorily taught in schools.

                        In retrospect, when it came to Punjab, the Indian central government did not recognize Punjabi as Punjab's language and forced Hindi to be taught in all of Punjab's schools as a compulsory primary language. It took 2 decades of agitation to finally get the central government to recognize Punjabi as Punjab's official language in 1966, and it was only very recently in 2008 that the compulsory teaching of Hindi in Punjab was revoked and Hindi made an optional language.

                        Even today, students have an option to choose Hindi or Tamil as their second language. And Hindi was/is being taught in private tuition centers all over TN.
                        I'm guessing you meant to say Hindi or English as their second language?
                        Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                        -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                          That's a given. I can't imagine an agitation being against an 'optional' teaching of a language. My old school (YPS) teaches French as an optional language, while Punjabi University Patiala has Farsi as an optional language. When I say, asked to 'adopt' a secondary language, naturally, it only means having it compulsorily taught in schools.

                          In retrospect, when it came to Punjab, the Indian central government did not recognize Punjabi as Punjab's language and forced Hindi to be taught in all of Punjab's schools as a compulsory primary language. It took 2 decades of agitation to finally get the central government to recognize Punjabi as Punjab's official language in 1966, and it was only very recently in 2008 that the compulsory teaching of Hindi in Punjab was revoked and Hindi made an optional language.
                          The then Central govt was experimenting with this idea of having Hindi as a common/official Indian language. Nothing wrong with that idea. The problem started when they wanted to do it immediately and enforced it on everybody. Fortunately, better sense prevailed and it was revoked. Interestingly Pakistan faced a similar problem in their Eastern wing and tried to deal with that problem with an iron hand and ended up alienating an big part of their population.

                          Bollywood movies did a much better job of popularizing Hindi in southern states, than any of those stupid ideas the erstwhile Congress govts came up with.


                          Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                          I'm guessing you meant to say Hindi or English as their second language?
                          Only in Govt run schools, where the primary medium of education is Tamil. All other schools have English as the primary, with Hindi or Tamil being their second language.
                          Last edited by hammer; 06 Oct 12,, 15:20.
                          Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by hammer View Post
                            The then Central govt was experimenting with this idea of having Hindi as a common/official Indian language. Nothing wrong with that idea. The problem started when they wanted to do it immediately and enforced it on everybody.
                            That depends on which side of the language debate you're on. The Tamils on the other Indian board are quite vigorous in their anti-Hindi stance, and I don't disagree with them. Linguistic imperialism is never a good idea for deeply pluralistic states. English should be kept the primary link language throughout India (as it is an internationally useful language) while the Hindi belt can keep their mother-tongue Hindi as their secondary language and the other states keep their own native tongues.


                            Fortunately, better sense prevailed and it was revoked. Interestingly Pakistan faced a similar problem in their Eastern wing and tried to deal with that problem with an iron hand and ended up alienating an big part of their population.
                            Pakistan hasn't really learned from that mistake. They never do.


                            Bollywood movies did a much better job of popularizing Hindi in southern states, than any of those stupid ideas the erstwhile Congress govts came up with.
                            I'm surprised since I normally find Tamil cinema churning out better movies than Bollywood.

                            Only in Govt run schools, where the primary medium of education is Tamil. All other schools have English as the primary, with Hindi or Tamil being their second language.
                            Ah, I see. That's actually not a bad idea. In Punjab, Punjabi is the primary language, no matter if they are public or private schools. English is the compulsory second language, and till 2008, Hindi too was compulsory but now it's given as optional. No wonder Indian kids are under so much school stress; they're normally learning 3 different languages by the 1st grade!

                            And I just realized, we've gone completely OT.
                            Last edited by Tronic; 06 Oct 12,, 21:22.
                            Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                            -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                              DCL, I’m not really ‘suspecting’ anything since it doesn’t really matter if it is deliberate foul play or a total indifference; the end result is the same. I mean, we had to agitate and fight for over two decades to even have the basic right of our language to be recognized, before which, the Indian government did not accord Punjabi any status in the constitution and Hindi was being forced in all of Punjab’s schools. The only other state which comes close to this agitation are the Tamils, yet the Tamils revolted despite already having their language recognized and only being asked to adopt Hindi as a secondary language! And that’s just one tiny example!
                              Punjab incidently isn't a special case in this, as the same was tried in various other states during the initial years of our nation building project. Yet, other's didn't resort to AK-47s to solve this problem, neither did they turn to one of our arch enemy to solve their problem. The rest of the country didn't take this very sympathetically.
                              Secondly, I would love to get answers for those questions. The militants had to be killed, but why carry out an operation when civilian casualties would be the highest they could be? They had 6 months! Why not carry it out a week earlier? Or a week later? Why on a holy day when Golden Temple routinely hosts the highest number of pilgrims? The militants had already been choked off from water and food, so why not allow the pilgrims to exit? That's probably one of a kind operation where it was actually the army trapping the civilians in the middle of a planned warzone, rather than militants taking hostages. What's your take on these questions?
                              Bad timing in terms of go ahead given. The Army didn't have a voice in this. Also, everybody I have spoken to involved in Op BS agrees that the chosen day was just a bad bad error, no deliberate plan to kill citizen. The InA never had a history of planning civilian kills.

                              Regarding not allowing exits, well the blame falls squarely on all three parties involved, the people, the militants and also the Army. The Army just didn't take the risk of allowing militants getting mixed up with the people. It was damn difficult to decide who's a militant and who's not.

                              [I would rather let the matter drop here. No point in digging the graves one more time. Let us agree to disagree]
                              sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
                                Punjab incidently isn't a special case in this, as the same was tried in various other states during the initial years of our nation building project. Yet, other's didn't resort to AK-47s to solve this problem, neither did they turn to one of our arch enemy to solve their problem. The rest of the country didn't take this very sympathetically.
                                Not a single Punjabi picked up an AK-47 due to the language, plus a whole list of other issues. Most of those issues remain till today and are still being fought politically as they had been since 1947-1984. The AKs only came out after Op Bluestar.

                                Bad timing in terms of go ahead given. The Army didn't have a voice in this. Also, everybody I have spoken to involved in Op BS agrees that the chosen day was just a bad bad error, no deliberate plan to kill citizen. The InA never had a history of planning civilian kills. Regarding not allowing exits, well the blame falls squarely on all three parties involved, the people, the militants and also the Army.
                                Than I hope you'll agree that those were some very incompetent commanders.

                                The Army just didn't take the risk of allowing militants getting mixed up with the people. It was damn difficult to decide who's a militant and who's not.
                                By not allowing the civilians to exit, they did just mix them both up.

                                [I would rather let the matter drop here. No point in digging the graves one more time. Let us agree to disagree]
                                Sure. Though I do hope when these things prop up time and again in the future, this angle isn't forgotten and the Sikh community squarely blamed for all things that went wrong in the '80s, as has already been done here on another thread.
                                Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                                -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X