Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Lt Gen Brar: It was an assassination attempt by 'pro-Khalistan elements'

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by lemontree View Post
    As per the book by Lt Gen Brar, ...5th June afternoon onwards, the army kept asking the militants to surrender, using the public address system. The militants were asked to send the pilgrims out of the temple premises to the safety, before they started fighting the army. But nothing happened till 7 PM.

    The police, if they could send emissaries inside to help get the civilians out, but the police said that anyone sent inside would be killed by the militants. They believed that the militants were keeping the pilgrims inside to stop the army from entering the temple. Finally, around a hundred sick and old people were let out. These people informed the army that the others were not being allowed to come out.
    Accounts differ with what the civilians inside are saying LT, while all the independent journalists who managed to lay low and avoid being tossed out were arrested and jailed for sedition for reporting accounts not in line with the army's version. Brahma Chellaney, Harji Malik, Krishna Raj, Ghanshyam Singh, and even a Canadian reporter, Jonathan Mann, were all tossed in jail.


    You suggested that I heal the people in Punjab, hence I stated that Punjab was ruled by SAD.
    I did not suggest anything LT; you wished to take part in the healing process on your own behalf. And I'm not able to follow. Are you putting the condition that Punjab has to first vote in the Congress Party for justice to be delivered?


    Where do you get you figures from? As per the South Asia terror portal total civilian fatalities in terrorist related violence from 1981 to 2007 = 11,783. This figure includes both Hindu and Sikh.
    As per Human Rights Asia, the toll is closer to 25,000, which includes the "missing" individuals, who were rounded up by the Police never to be seen again.

    And yes, the casualty figure includes Hindus too but I'm speaking proportions. There was never a mass killing spree against Hindus if that's what you're trying to paint here. Hindus were targeted, but by select terror outfits, and in several isolated terrorist incidents. There was never an organized massacre of Hindus in Punjab, as it happened in Delhi and Haryana against Sikhs.

    The Khalistani insurgency and terrorism bore out of political issues, not communal.

    Here is Indira Gandhi's assassin's words before his execution;

    "I have no hatred for any Hindu, Muslim, Christian, neither hatred for any religion. After my Shaheedi, let no Sikh throw any rock at any Hindu. I am not in favor of any retaliation or bloodshed over my Shaheedi. If we do create bloodshed, then there is no difference between us and Rajiv Gandhi. I am proud of the task that I did! I do ardas (prayers) in front of Waheguru (god)! If I am blessed with a human life, then give me a death of the brave when I am hanged. Forget one life, if I could I would give up a thousand lives to kill dushts (devils) like Indira Gandhi, and laugh as I become Shaheed (martyr) by hanging.

    -Satwant Singh in court"

    ExecutedToday.com » 1989: Kehar Singh and Satwant Singh, assassins of Indira Gandhi

    Doesn't sound like a man with a hatred of Hindus, but a man with an axe to grind against the Indian government.


    But you did not answer, who should I write to for the non-sikh who were killed by Bhindranwale?...
    If you wish to equate terrorists with the Indian government, than write to Pakistan, the sponsors of KCF.

    The day of choice was a coincidence, and forced by the intell pouring in and the analysis done.
    So own up the mistake without both fingers pointing to Bhinderenwala all the time. We know he was a ****, so what? It doesn't excuse the fcuk ups. His trail leads to the Indian government as well. And when that is pointed out, than you fall back on blaming the entire Sikh community. Owning up to fcuk ups is a good start for reconciliation.

    The terrorists were glorified from day 1, and you can hardly deniy that.
    Yes, I can deny that. All these "honouring" the terrorists and all such BS has only started happening post-2000. Why? Because I reckon a lot of Sikhs in Punjab have started to loose hope that the culprits of the '84 pogroms will ever be punished. It's a way to give the central government the middle finger.


    You dont seem to appriciate, that if you go hunting for retired personal who did their jobs in the govt, to punish them, it constitutes an act of terror and the perpetrator becomes a terrorist.
    Than trial them for terrorism. I'm not speaking on their behalf.

    The retired hangman from Pune's Yerwada jail was being hunted by Khalistani terrorists for hanging the assasins of Gen AK Vaidya. But you call them normal everyday youth.
    Point out where I have called terrorists everyday youth. It's a preconceived notion of yours that you see all the Sikh youth who don't agree with your perspective as terrorists, not the other way around.

    Do normal everyday youth carry knives in the UK?
    Was I referring to Brar's assailants?

    Not at all. But if you support terrorists you become their sympathiser.
    Calling a spade a spade is not supporting terrorists.

    Give it time. Please understand the power of the Gandhi family is immense in India.
    The very fact that the CBI has been able to accuse Sajjan Kumar, means that they are not under pressure. But to obtain proof that will stand in a court of law is what matters.
    Than it's only proper that these sham Congress controlled institutions are exposed for what they really are. 27 years and counting LT. The evidence has only been eroding with time, not building up. It's a sham. Notice the clear contradictions on how loudly they moved against the Gujarat riot perpetrators simply because those chaps were linked to an opposition party, while when it comes to their own actions, they chant the mantra, "forget and move on".
    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Tronic View Post
      That bit is interesting. From what I know, you cannot just jump out of the barracks and into the battlefield. Mobilizing strike formations within a week is beyond impressive. I'm skeptical. What makes our army so slow? It would take no less than a month, and you would not be able to hide the buildup, unless they try to mask a mobilization as an exercise.
      Well, Pakistan has two strike corps - I Corps (HQ in Mangala) & II Corps (HQ in Multan). II Corps is also known as it army reserve for south.

      I Corps:
      6 Armd Div - Kharian 10km from RS Pura near Jammu OR 150 km from any choice of axis on the IB with Indian Punjab.
      17 Inf Div - Kharian 10km from RS Pura near Jammu OR 150 km from any choice of axis on the IB with Indian Punjab.
      37 Inf Div - Gujranwala 70 km from any choice of axis on the IB with Indian Punjab.

      II Corps
      1st Armd Div - Multan, 80 km from IB with Indian Punjab
      14 Inf Div - based in Okara, 50 km from IB with Indian Punjab
      40 Inf Div - based in Okara, 50 km from IB with Indian Punjab

      Please note the distance and time taken form movement. No army worth its salt will take more that a week to mobilise.

      I'm not questioning Pakistan's motives. I'm questioning their ability.
      They do not have the ability, BUT did that stop 1965 or 1999 Kargil. They have enough of hallucinating nutcase generals.

      You have your time frame wrong LT. It was the KCF which was targeting Hindus, not Bhinderenwala. They are not the same thing, as Bhinderenwala and the Babbar Khalsa aligned KCF were bitter enemies. There was a bus killing of Hindus and a shooting spree in a train bogie on Punjab Police Personnel in October '83. Bhinderenwala denied this attack and blamed it on government agencies, but it is very likely that it was carried out by other militants. The majority of attacks against Hindus took place from '85 to '89, with 2 high profile ones after that. The KCF accepted responsibility initially but after the lashback they received from majority of Punjab's Sikhs, they denied responsibility and tried to wash their hands off from those killings.
      I am talking of the spurt in killings from January 1984 to May 1984. Prior to that there were an average of 5-6 civilians killed. But from Jan 1984 the average rose to 30-40 killings per month.

      I am not even talking of KCF or BKI,..KCF they came into the picture after 1986.
      Babbar Khalsa - existed before 1978, but they were mainly anti-Nirankari. This group was consolidated and led by Canadian Sikhs, who came into lime light after the 1985 Air India Kanishaka bombing.

      Yup, that's what I thought too. But all of these 'cassettes' are widely available on youtube, LT, and with subtitles to boot. Please link me which ones you're talking about. From the ones I have seen, he's actually trying to play to the Hindu gallery.
      You dont really expect to find '84 era audio speeches on youtube...these were stored in audio cassettes. I do not know if any of the old cassettes are on youtube.

      Cheers!...on the rocks!!

      Comment


      • #93
        People can go down low by telling that more Sikh were killed in Punjab during Sikh militancy so hindus have no business to play victim like Sikhs have.

        Here my answer and they should suck it up...

        Hindus were the target of Sikh militancy in Punjab and Sikh killed were the collateral damage. The score should have been leveled for few days of riots vs many years of militancy.

        The Sikhs in armed forces who lead the fight and got killed to increase proportion of Sikh casualties were doing it for their own job and monetary benefits like hindus joined Sikhs armies in past were doing not because of their respect for Sikhism but money and land.

        Bhindrawala was a mother fucker bigot who spwed hate against hindus quoting Sikh holy book. I heard him on a Youtube video that hindus are one who always rule land by offering/trading their daughters. "eh diyan deeke raj karan wale ne''. He even said that he will kill thousands of hindus in one day.

        1. If Khalistan would have been made after partition and if same situation might have had happened where Sikhs might have had used force against occupation like Bhindranwale did no Sikh might have cried foul, like muslims doesn't rant about siege of mecca mosque. But since the army was of hindu India gut of few will burn for many centuries to come. Sikh throughout their history did armed struggles to get their Gurudwaras freed from ''mahants'' and other priests working like mafias in their temples. Just recently they fought each other with swords and daggers injuring each other inside their places of worship.

        2. Akali Dal party is bad because they are now sworn in minister to constitution of India and they have surrendered the cause of Khalistan.

        3. All the fault is of GoI and a political party who was supposed to do the politics to negotiate terms with a state and its people like they do with any other state but failed to foresee bigotry of Sikhs that they will side with ''so called Sikh Sants (saints)'' who will end up hiding in their temples with arms ammunition and with radio links with Pakistan.

        4. It is all the fault of army who sieged the area on some special day when for that same day Sikhs were doing propaganda of declaring independence with 1 Sikh taking care of 10 hindus onwards.

        5. It is all the fault of GoI that Sikhs see every (socio-political) unfair treatment as attack on Sikhs not state of Punjab where population of hindus was around 40-30 % all the time but they all were traitors of Sikhs because they were not impulsive like them.

        6. Since there is no sense of closure, Sikhs will keep using violence against Indian army soldiers who were there to maintain the sanity of that place and hell they were successful to do so, that the temple was up and running for the cause it was built for, within days for everyone including pilgrimages from any caste, creed and religion including hindus till today, which was never the case when Bhindranwale was out there abusing hindus.

        7. In near future it will be fault of GoI and its forces of India when they enter those premises again to bring down portraits of traitors who conspired against Union of India, killed Indian Army Generals or rectify the records where Sikhs are glorifying human bombs with consensus and consent of all present day Sikhs. Same consensus and consent they had/gave to the tactics and agenda of Bhindranwale.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Tronic View Post
          Accounts differ with what the civilians inside are saying LT, while all the independent journalists who managed to lay low and avoid being tossed out were arrested and jailed for sedition for reporting accounts not in line with the army's version. Brahma Chellaney, Harji Malik, Krishna Raj, Ghanshyam Singh, and even a Canadian reporter, Jonathan Mann, were all tossed in jail.
          Agreed that accounts may differ, but at no point were the people allowed to leave the temple. Maj Gen Shahbeg assumed that the army would not entre with so many pilgrims inside. They were used as human shields.

          I did not suggest anything LT; you wished to take part in the healing process on your own behalf. And I'm not able to follow. Are you putting the condition that Punjab has to first vote in the Congress Party for justice to be delivered?
          Well, they did vote the Congress in power too, you had Capt. Amrinder Singh as CM before SAD took over...

          As per Human Rights Asia, the toll is closer to 25,000, which includes the "missing" individuals, who were rounded up by the Police never to be seen again.
          I take Human Rights data with a bag full of salt.

          And yes, the casualty figure includes Hindus too but I'm speaking proportions. There was never a mass killing spree against Hindus if that's what you're trying to paint here. Hindus were targeted, but by select terror outfits, and in several isolated terrorist incidents.
          61% of terror violence in Punjab were Sikhs and the rest non-sikh.

          Incidents of mass killings against hindus:
          12 Sept 1983: 8 hindu bus passengers killed.
          October 1983: 6 Hindu bus passengers killed by militants.
          8 October 1983: Hindus killed through out Punjab in retaliation for Police detaining a bus with his men in it.
          14 October 1983: bomb blast in Chandigarh on Diwali.
          9 Feb 1984: Bomb a hindu wedding procession (or baraat as we call it).
          23 Feb 1984: 11 Hindus pulled off from trains and buses and killed, 27 wounded.

          There was never an organized massacre of Hindus in Punjab, as it happened in Delhi and Haryana against Sikhs.
          The above mentioned data and actions speak otherwise. The riots after Indira's assasination was a result of the the collective frustration and polarization due to the systematic targeting of hindus.
          The Khalistani insurgency and terrorism bore out of political issues, not communal.
          It was given a communal colour by Bhindranwale and the targetting of hindus and the hate speeches made it so.
          Here is Indira Gandhi's assassin's words before his execution;
          .....
          Doesn't sound like a man with a hatred of Hindus, but a man with an axe to grind against the Indian government.
          These were poodles manupilated to carry out a task. The gunmen how pulled the trigger, were already dead after a fire-fight in the guard house with the other ITBP guards.
          You are portraying the "Piety" of an assasination conspirator at the time of execution - this is meaningless. The actions of their comrades prior and post Op Blue Star gave it a communal colour.

          If you wish to equate terrorists with the Indian government, than write to Pakistan, the sponsors of KCF.
          No, I am going to question all Silkhs for glorifying terrorists with posters hanging in their Gurudwaras. Pakistanis just used the Sikhs.

          So own up the mistake without both fingers pointing to Bhinderenwala all the time. We know he was a ****, so what? It doesn't excuse the fcuk ups. His trail leads to the Indian government as well. And when that is pointed out, than you fall back on blaming the entire Sikh community. Owning up to fcuk ups is a good start for reconciliation.
          No one has ever denied the mistakes of the Congress in using Bhindranwale for their political aspirations in Punjab,...but has ever made a difference.

          Yes, I can deny that. All these "honouring" the terrorists and all such BS has only started happening post-2000. Why? Because I reckon a lot of Sikhs in Punjab have started to loose hope that the culprits of the '84 pogroms will ever be punished. It's a way to give the central government the middle finger.
          That is BS. I was in the Golden Temple in September 1993 and saw a small memorial where Bhindranwale had fallen, and his portraits and those of the assasins of Indira Gandhi and Gen Vaidya in the martyers hall in the museum section.

          Honouring terrorists polarises the nation against them.

          Point out where I have called terrorists everyday youth. It's a preconceived notion of yours that you see all the Sikh youth who don't agree with your perspective as terrorists, not the other way around.
          I was referring to the men who have been hunting of retired police personal instrumental in killing terrorist leaders or executing convicted terrorists.
          Was I referring to Brar's assailants?
          How do you know they were ordinary youth or feed by BKI ideology?

          Calling a spade a spade is not supporting terrorists.
          It makes one a terrorist sympathiser.

          Than it's only proper that these sham Congress controlled institutions are exposed for what they really are. 27 years and counting LT. The evidence has only been eroding with time, not building up. It's a sham. Notice the clear contradictions on how loudly they moved against the Gujarat riot perpetrators simply because those chaps were linked to an opposition party, while when it comes to their own actions, they chant the mantra, "forget and move on".
          The pity is that there is no voice taking it forward.
          Last edited by lemontree; 12 Oct 12,, 07:58.

          Cheers!...on the rocks!!

          Comment


          • #95
            Tronic,
            I am speaking as an ordinary Indian. The riots were a big black patch in Indian history. We all (in my circle of family and friends) regret it. And waiting for justice is in wane. I have seen no member of political party been accused of anything and jailed. Even the other rich and powerful (only a handful) are going behin bars after the previous trila let them off and media made a loud hue and cry.

            So there are 2 options. - "learn and move on" - it is better for the country!! Never fall in the trap again as a community. (The political parties will keep making new traps for their own gains).

            Revolt against the gov (as you stated give the gov middle finger). ( by the way as a democracy we always get a chance atleast after every 5 years!!!) Revolting will again be in form of terrorism (sooner or later) and will again attract Pak in to break away Punjab.

            If people had issues with the way the operation was cunducted, they could have sued the army of filed a PIL in court. If everybody starts taking up guns for the fcuk ups of the gov. or its agencies, there will be no India.

            So whatever may be the cause, there is no justification of voilence. Think about it. No body tradegy is less than anybody elses.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Tronic View Post
              Thanks for tracking it down. Now realize that both those stories have been reprinted as flashing headlines on October 7th! What's the motive behind reprinting and re-flashing a month old news as the current headline? And by the way, Deccan Herald is not the only one which did it, but pretty much all major Indian newspapers and even television media reflashed that headline!

              It is ironical that they are constantly pointing fingers at the Sikh diaspora...
              Less than a month after those statements were made Brar got attacked. Coincidence or what.

              How did that happen and who is behind the attack. How did they even find Brar in a city as large & spread out as London.

              Originally posted by Tronic View Post
              Instead of pointing fingers at foreign boogeymen, the government should fix up its own shortcomings.
              You don't think its a valid suspicion at this point. I think its natural for people to start seeing some connection however tenuous it may later prove to be.

              Earlier you said the focus of sikh groups abroad is different nowadays but we still have an unexplained attack to account for.

              Originally posted by Tronic View Post
              India is not a very transparent country, so as long as what is said is in the public domain and in front of media, it is a message to the people. An IB director does not give a public brief to DGP and IGPs.
              See above

              Originally posted by Tronic View Post
              DE, I'll definitely give it a read, but you have to take it with a pinch of salt. This is the same army which imposed a ban on the media and shipped the journalists out of Punjab on buses.
              Yes but to be fair you have to allow the General his say and then reconcile it with what you already know. Imagine there would be a lot of operational decisions explained therein that you could clarify with people here.

              Or can remain cynical and think of such accounts as self-exonerating and CYA but thats just avoiding the other side of the story ;)
              Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Oct 12,, 21:41.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                Well for one, I wouldn't buy it that the Pakistanis can just roll into Punjab within a fortnight. An invasion requires a mobilization, which at best takes more than a month. An intelligence intercept is one thing, an actual mobilization on the ground a whole another. We did not just wake up and roll into East Pakistan one fine day. It took months of planning, training and mobilization. And since my shit ass MI wasted 6 months sitting on their asses without gathering proper intelligence on the place; I would start off with that. So when I send my soldiers in, I know what I'm dealing with rather than work on assumptions. And ultimately, not attack on one of the holiest days when storming the place. And that's the basics. I'm not a military man.
                Yeah, i don't quite agree with LT's phrasing & sequencing there. Instead prefer to think of the Paks as a future threat over the horizon.

                However LT's next bit is more important....

                Originally posted by lemontree View Post
                There was a very real fear of police deserters crossing over after the declaration of Khalistan by Bhindranwale.
                what matters in the immediate term is the potential threat of an insurgency turning into a civil war. Does not have to be a civil war, any further deterioration with all the unpredictability it brings of the already volatile situation would be unacceptable.

                Now that is something that would concentrate minds much more than anything the Paks may or might not do in the future. If a civil war erupts it presents numerous opportunities as well as time for the Paks to exploit. Indian forces now have two problems to deal with.

                Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                Actually, the threat of Civil War was very real. You have one Army MGen refusing orders. The Beijing Garrison was ordered to stay in barracks because the Conservative Faction did not trust him. And Zhao Ziyang trying to use the students to overthrow Deng Xia Peng. It is more correct to say that Deng's patience ran out.
                Same thing again albeit under different circumstances.

                What both adminstrations were antsy about was the threat of a civil war. So it follows then that disproportionate force is going to be used and that is how it turned out in both cases.

                Originally posted by kato View Post
                Rant? Operation Blue Star was the Indian equivalent of Tiananmen. And that's only if we downplay its significance.
                Only in terms of the urgency in which both operations were executed. The significance or similarity is both prevented a potential civil war from breaking out. India's Tianmen or China's Golden temple (sounds catchy?) are not equivalent beyond.

                From this pov its a superficial comparison as the causes & motivations in both are different.
                Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Oct 12,, 23:05.

                Comment


                • #98
                  An actual invasion by the PA wasn't the only threat. It was certain that the Pakistanis would immediately recognize Khalistan if the declaration was made. And there was no telling who might join them in doing so considering that the cold war was still going on at the time, with India being on the wrong (soviet) side of the fence.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Gentlemen, my undergrad exams have arrived, and I cannot afford to spend the time carrying this discussion forward at the moment as it is very time consuming.

                    LT, I still contest most of what you have said, but I am pressed for time at the moment so maybe a month from now.

                    DE, I don't disagree with a lot you have said, except your connecting that news with the stabbing incident. 2 men have been arrested, just follow the case. Every criminal is not necessarily connected to an organized gang.

                    appu, I agree with you but we have had national parties revolting and rioting over a 500 year old Babri-Ram issue, so asking justice for an event which took place not 3 decades ago doesn't seem unreasonable.

                    That's my last word on the topic for a while. Peace!
                    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                    Comment


                    • All the best for your exams..there will be ample time for us to head bang again....:tankie:

                      Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                      Comment


                      • Best of luck for your exams Tronic!

                        Come out in flying colours.
                        sigpicAnd on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

                        Comment


                        • All the best for your exams:)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Firestorm View Post
                            An actual invasion by the PA wasn't the only threat. It was certain that the Pakistanis would immediately recognize Khalistan if the declaration was made. And there was no telling who might join them in doing so considering that the cold war was still going on at the time, with India being on the wrong (soviet) side of the fence.
                            What are the minimum requirements to be met before such a declaration can be made ?

                            Should certain amount of territory be won & held from Indian forces. At the time all they had was just the golden temple. Anything more ?

                            Otherwise such a declaration serves as a rallying cry, the purpose is to instigate more domestic unrest.

                            Any active international interest soon after the declaration seems premature at least not until the Khalistanis actually have a fighting chance of winning the state. Or if Indian attrocities arouse a intl outrage to match what the Paks did in East Pakistan in '71. And this would require credible reporting to be accepted. I find it difficult to accept that foreign powers would just step up to support secession just for the sake of it.

                            Thing is cold war days tended to mute this kind of opposition in comparison to today. The options available then were more limited.

                            I'm thinking of Kosovo, war in '99, independence declaration with US interest only ten years later. If the Soviets were still around in the 90s & beyond i doubt Yugoslavia would have broken up.
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Oct 12,, 12:42.

                            Comment


                            • Pending your reply i thought i would put this in.

                              Originally posted by Tronic
                              The question is
                              - why did they wait 6 months to do so? Why did they pick the most holiest of days, when the shrine was packed with thousands of pilgrims from around the world?

                              - Why did they allow those pilgrims to even enter the temple when they knew they would be shelling that place with artillery the same night?

                              Secondly, I would love to get answers for those questions. The militants had to be killed, but
                              - why carry out an operation when civilian casualties would be the highest they could be? They had 6 months! Why not carry it out a week earlier? Or a week later?

                              - Why on a holy day when Golden Temple routinely hosts the highest number of pilgrims?
                              The militants had already been choked off from water and food, so why not allow the pilgrims to exit? That's probably one of a kind operation where it was actually the army trapping the civilians in the middle of a planned warzone, rather than militants taking hostages. What's your take on these questions?
                              Unless you or somebody else wants to contest what LT said about state fears over the militants intent...

                              In a nutshell, all of your above questions can be answered by saying that not acting when they did would be more expensive or detrimental to the state's position.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                I'm thinking of Kosovo, war in '99, independence declaration with US interest only ten years later. If the Soviets were still around in the 90s & beyond i doubt Yugoslavia would have broken up.
                                Don't bang your head to much.

                                If USSR was still around Yugoslavia would have existed. The removal from the USSR on the world stage, removed the cause for Yugoslavia to exists (buffer zone).

                                Too bad the politicians didn't saw that on time and changed the role of the country if it was somehow possible.
                                No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                                To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X