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What if the US had fully backed the KMT in the late 1940s?

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  • Triple C
    replied
    Originally posted by gunnut
    Even Taiwan, the DPP is having some issues now because Tsai doesn't get along with Chen in the south, and Lai (the premiere?) is from the Chen clique.
    Not precisely. While Premier "William" Lai has the support of Chen's base, he's from the New Trend Faction, and his naming as the premier is supposed to smooth over his disagreements and conflicts with President Tsai.

    Originally posted by DOR
    By the time the KMT got to Taiwan, the survivors were die-hard Chiang allies...
    I don't know if that is accurate. At least according to the memoirs, the relationship btw CKS and the New Guangxi Clique generals were far from harmonious. That said, being stuck on the same island probably did wonders in bringing everybody into CKS's span of control, as they were no more regions for regionalism to develop. And the lion's share of warlord armies and resources were left behind.

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  • hboGYT
    replied
    Originally posted by DOR View Post
    The revolution would have been postponed a decade or so, until the next set of uprisings brought down the corrupt regime . . . just like it happened over and over again in dynastic China.
    Assuming any rebellion is brutally crushed with US aid, what kind of economic policy would the KMT pursue?

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  • DOR
    replied
    Originally posted by hboGYT View Post
    What if the KMT won the war on the back of massive US aid, but persisted the old policies, assuming the US does not intervene, would China have fared better or worse.\?
    The revolution would have been postponed a decade or so, until the next set of uprisings brought down the corrupt regime . . . just like it happened over and over again in dynastic China.

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  • hboGYT
    replied
    Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    A Banana Republic
    KMT vs Macedonian phalanx?

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    A Banana Republic

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  • hboGYT
    replied
    What if the KMT won the war on the back of massive US aid, but persisted the old policies, assuming the US does not intervene, would China have fared better or worse.\?

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  • Skywatcher
    replied
    Originally posted by gunnut View Post
    That's not exactly the same. Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Rockefeller didn't have their own armies or control a portion of the federal army.

    Just the other day I saw a program talking about Xi Jingping consolidated power by using people loyal to his father to replace generals in other parts of China.

    Even Taiwan, the DPP is having some issues now because Tsai doesn't get along with Chen in the south, and Lai (the premiere?) is from the Chen clique.
    Well, the Robber Barons pretty much had the National Guard at their beck and call, given that they usually more or less owned the state governors, and could call upon the Pinkertons and local/state police forces in a pinch.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    Originally posted by gunnut View Post
    This fact always puzzled me. Why is it that China (even today), Iraq, Afghanistan, all have warlords and cliques that have real firepower dividing up the nation's army? Why aren't there American warlords?
    Technically speaking, the ACW's Confederate Armies were all warloard armies. Each state controlled its own army and the Confederate Government had no say in who commands what nor interfere in each state's military decisions.

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  • gunnut
    replied
    Originally posted by DOR View Post
    Post-revolution, China's fear of a resurgence of warlordism (山头主义, shantouzhuyi: mountaintop-ism) led to shuffling regional commanders around the country. Men who’d spent their careers largely in Shenyang were sent to Wuhan, from Xinjiang to Chengdu. Five years later, pairs of commanders were swapped straight across, like a baseball trade. Li Desheng took Chen Xilian’s job, and vice versa. Yang Dezhi and Zeng Siyu swapped Wuhan for Jinan. Guangzhou for Nanjing, Lanzhou for Fuzhou.

    In America, the names were Cornelius Vanderbilt, John Jacob Astor, Andrew Carnegie, Jay Gould, Andrew Mellon, Leland Stanford, J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller and William Randolph Hearst. Same thing, different uniforms.
    That's not exactly the same. Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Rockefeller didn't have their own armies or control a portion of the federal army.

    Just the other day I saw a program talking about Xi Jingping consolidated power by using people loyal to his father to replace generals in other parts of China.

    Even Taiwan, the DPP is having some issues now because Tsai doesn't get along with Chen in the south, and Lai (the premiere?) is from the Chen clique.

    Leave a comment:


  • DOR
    replied
    Originally posted by gunnut View Post
    This fact always puzzled me. Why is it that China (even today), Iraq, Afghanistan, all have warlords and cliques that have real firepower dividing up the nation's army? Why aren't there American warlords?
    Post-revolution, China's fear of a resurgence of warlordism (山头主义, shantouzhuyi: mountaintop-ism) led to shuffling regional commanders around the country. Men who’d spent their careers largely in Shenyang were sent to Wuhan, from Xinjiang to Chengdu. Five years later, pairs of commanders were swapped straight across, like a baseball trade. Li Desheng took Chen Xilian’s job, and vice versa. Yang Dezhi and Zeng Siyu swapped Wuhan for Jinan. Guangzhou for Nanjing, Lanzhou for Fuzhou.

    In America, the names were Cornelius Vanderbilt, John Jacob Astor, Andrew Carnegie, Jay Gould, Andrew Mellon, Leland Stanford, J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller and William Randolph Hearst. Same thing, different uniforms.

    Leave a comment:


  • gunnut
    replied
    Originally posted by DOR View Post
    So much in-fighting.

    Fengtian Faction vs. Beiyang Clique
    Anhui Clique vs. Fengtian Clique
    Xinjiang Clique vs. Hui Ma Clique
    CC Clique vs. Political Science Research Society
    Blue Shirts vs. Wang Jingwei


    By the time the KMT got to Taiwan, the survivors were die-hard Chiang allies; Yan Xishan (Shanxi Clique), Bai Chongxi and Li Zongren (New Guangxi Clique), Ho Ying-chin (Guizhou Clique) and Sun Fo (token Sun family icon).
    This fact always puzzled me. Why is it that China (even today), Iraq, Afghanistan, all have warlords and cliques that have real firepower dividing up the nation's army? Why aren't there American warlords?

    Leave a comment:


  • Ironduke
    replied
    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    As a child of the Cold War it still boggles my mind that you can have open, public access to the CIA Library!

    Allen Dulles has to be spinning in his grave!
    James Jesus Angleton is probably spinning even faster, at speeds possibly approaching the speed of light.

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  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    Originally posted by DOR View Post
    As a child of the Cold War it still boggles my mind that you can have open, public access to the CIA Library!

    Allen Dulles has to be spinning in his grave!

    Leave a comment:


  • DOR
    replied
    Further reading: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...CC%20Clique%22

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  • DOR
    replied
    So much in-fighting.

    Fengtian Faction vs. Beiyang Clique
    Anhui Clique vs. Fengtian Clique
    Xinjiang Clique vs. Hui Ma Clique
    CC Clique vs. Political Science Research Society
    Blue Shirts vs. Wang Jingwei


    By the time the KMT got to Taiwan, the survivors were die-hard Chiang allies; Yan Xishan (Shanxi Clique), Bai Chongxi and Li Zongren (New Guangxi Clique), Ho Ying-chin (Guizhou Clique) and Sun Fo (token Sun family icon).

    Leave a comment:

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