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What if Hitler had come clean?

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  • What if Hitler had come clean?

    This may sound like a stupid question, but what would have happened if Hitler had come clean with the British and French regarding his invasion of Poland so that he could have a common boarder with the USSR? Would they have supported his invasion of Russia or would have things still have turned out as they historically did?

  • #2
    Both Britain and France had signed a mutual defense pact with Poland. Hitler well knew and understood the consequences of 1 September 1939.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Rimsey View Post
      This may sound like a stupid question, but what would have happened if Hitler had come clean with the British and French regarding his invasion of Poland so that he could have a common boarder with the USSR? Would they have supported his invasion of Russia or would have things still have turned out as they historically did?
      Perhaps a more interesting question would be, what if Britain and France had not pledged to protect Poland. With this protection, Poland's leaders felt emboldened to reject Hitler's ultimatums regarding land access to the Black Sea port of Danzig which was surrounded by Polish territory. Although it would have taken a leap of faith on Poland's part to give in to Hitler, considering Hitler pretty much reneged on every deal he made with his neighbors, Poland might have yielded rather than stand alone against Hitler's armies.
      To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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      • #4
        Hitler's decision to invade Poland was made in May of 1939, months before the summer/autumn ultimatums to Poland. Ergo, Poland's response to the Danzig ultimatums was a moot point.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
          Hitler's decision to invade Poland was made in May of 1939, months before the summer/autumn ultimatums to Poland. Ergo, Poland's response to the Danzig ultimatums was a moot point.
          And the date for the invasion was set for Sept 1. However in the meantime, various proposals (ultimatums) were issued and rejected by Poland. Hitler seemed to be looking for a way to avoid an invasion.

          In fact, on the day before the invasion Hitler thru his foreign minister offered to scrap the invasion if Poland would agree to give up Danzig and hold a plebiscite in the Polish Corridor.

          I've read opinions that say Hitler did not really want to mount a full scale invasion because the cost in men and material could crimp his plans for invading the USSR. Another opinion is that Hitler didn't want to provoke France and Britain into a war until he had subjugated the USSR. He also had visions, or should I say, fantasies, of a Europe dominated by Germany and Britain.

          But back to the what-if, if Poland had no promise from France and Britain to come to its aid, it's reasonable to entertain the theory that Poland would have given in on the Danzig ultimatum and lived on as an independent, though weakened state for a while, perhaps indefinitely.
          To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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          • #6
            If Britain and France had acted more forcefully over Abyssinia, Spain, Rhineland, Austria, Munich, Anglo-German naval agreement and Romania its entirely possible that Hitler could have been stopped. Western indulgence encouraged him to reckless and ultimately doomed abandon.

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            • #7
              I would love to have seen the Invasion of the Sudetenland moved forward.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
                And the date for the invasion was set for Sept 1. However in the meantime, various proposals (ultimatums) were issued and rejected by Poland. Hitler seemed to be looking for a way to avoid an invasion.
                The Hitler ultimatums concerning Danzig contained demands (population transfers), concessions (loss of sea access), and restrictions (plebiscite voting) that Poland could not possibly have accepted. In addition, Poland well knew what had happened to Czechoslovakia (March 1939) after its concession of the Sudetenland (October 1938).
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  I would love to have seen the Invasion of the Sudetenland moved forward.
                  It was more a cakewalk than an invasion. But had Hitler not had the ok from Britain and France to take over, presumably he would have had to invade, in which case he would have had a rough time of it considering that the cream of the Czech defenses were near the border. And had he moved sooner and unilaterally, a bunch of German generals planned to arrest him. Munich may have saved his butt. So, you have a good point.
                  To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
                    The Hitler ultimatums concerning Danzig contained demands (population transfers), concessions (loss of sea access), and restrictions (plebiscite voting) that Poland could not possibly have accepted. In addition, Poland well knew what had happened to Czechoslovakia (March 1939) after its concession of the Sudetenland (October 1938).
                    Of course, things did not turn out such that we can test your logic. One could make the case that the Poles could have taken their chances, inasmuch as Hitler may not have wanted once again to appear to be a rank liar--though I not sure he cared. Or one could argue that their pride led them to prefer certain, disastrous subjugation to a status analogous to unoccupied France. Poland was not Japan. If its only hope to salvage a modicum of independence was to yield to Germany, then it might have done so. I am only contending that such an outcome is not implausible given the what-if France and Britain had not pledged to join Poland in repelling an invasion by Germany.
                    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Minskaya View Post
                      Both Britain and France had signed a mutual defense pact with Poland. Hitler well knew and understood the consequences of 1 September 1939.
                      No,he didn't.He always presumed things will turn out as previously.When it came to war he hoped to limit it in Poland.Only when it became clear the show's for real they started to plan the invasion of the West.They were forced to escalate in that sense.While the Allies had put themselves into a corner by their previous indecisions.

                      People also forget that it wasn't the Wehrmacht that brought Poland down.It was the Red Army.Without the Soviets,the Poles can hold on for a long time.

                      The Germans were in dire need for an operational pause,while the Poles were getting,finally ,into some defensible positions,and were in the process of rebuilding their force.Yeah,they lost big,but all was not lost.
                      Those who know don't speak
                      He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                        No,he didn't.He always presumed things will turn out as previously.When it came to war he hoped to limit it in Poland.Only when it became clear the show's for real they started to plan the invasion of the West.They were forced to escalate in that sense.While the Allies had put themselves into a corner by their previous indecisions. People also forget that it wasn't the Wehrmacht that brought Poland down.It was the Red Army.Without the Soviets,the Poles can hold on for a long time. The Germans were in dire need for an operational pause,while the Poles were getting,finally ,into some defensible positions,and were in the process of rebuilding their force.Yeah,they lost big,but all was not lost.
                        Very little of this jives with post-war historical analysis. There was a reason why the Anglo-Polish military pact specified only an attack by Germany. Churchill was looking for an excuse to confront Nazi expansionism and Hitler well knew it.

                        Poland could have held the Wehrmacht at bay for a long time? C'mon Mihais. Are you serious?
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                        • #13
                          Well,too bad Churchill became PM 8 months after the war started.

                          What I said is strictly related to how the Germans viewed the situation at the time.They were not hell bent on starting WW2 and taking over the world.


                          As for Poland,if you actually study the operations,you'll come to some very surprising conclusions.They took a beating at the border,but much of their reserves came from the Eastern part of Poland and were in the process of getting into defensive positions.Moreover,their strategy revolved around getting supplies from the West through the Romanian Corridor.They also built a large merchant fleet,planned to transport said supplies from the West to Constanta,and then up to Lvov by rail.Poland was in no way decisevely defeated at the time of Soviet invasion.
                          Those who know don't speak
                          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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                          • #14
                            "...They also built a large merchant fleet,planned to transport said supplies from the West to Constanta,and then up to Lvov by rail.Poland was in no way decisevely defeated at the time of Soviet invasion."

                            I know nothing of this but, if true (and it easily could be), as events proved it remains nothing more than a distraction. Unless the vessels were loaded and inbound on Sept. 1st, there's no way the end-user would benefit from their largesse before the Germans put paid to their objectives.

                            This was going to be a rapidly done deal with or without the Soviet Union piling on. Polish heroics aside, "the correlation of forces" were decidedly unfavorable for Poland.
                            "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                            "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by S2 View Post

                              This was going to be a rapidly done deal with or without the Soviet Union piling on. Polish heroics aside, "the correlation of forces" were decidedly unfavorable for Poland.
                              Yup, the Polish defense and defeat at the frontiers combined with German strategic air dominance and superior German, logisitical, tactical and strategic mobility meant Poland was doomed.

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