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What if Overlord fails?

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  • Doktor
    replied
    Was gonna comment about Soviets reaching Berlin with vast army and how French were already more in favor of the commie acceptance...

    But, you are right, Stalin would want to place 3 million soldiers in Paris

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  • Mihais
    replied
    If Overlord fails,the Allies are done for.The sea storms begin,a new operation is needed.You don't do this overnight.Landing in France is easy from a logistic pov.You have one day trip by ship.A major operation in the Med is not feasible in 1944.Landing in S France was a supporting effort and they faced little resistance.

    So the allies have no choice,but wait.And the Red Army can't get to Rhine.Because we're talking of Stalin here.The man doesn't wants to face the Allies with no army.Because that's what it takes to get to the Rhine.There's plenty of Seelow's and many Berlins in the path.
    Last edited by Mihais; 16 Jun 13,, 23:09.

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  • Doktor
    replied
    Can the allies gamble leaving the Soviets in full offensive?

    Let's say they do get better and reach Rhine, when they gonna stop?

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  • Mihais
    replied
    V2&chemical weapons..Not as fancy as fatties and little boys,but lethal nevertheless.

    If Overlord fails,the war in the East gets prolonged.For a start,there is the stabilization on the Vistula and the prevention of Romania renouncing the alliamce with Germany(with the subsequent collapse of the Germans in the Balkans,the invasion of Hungary as well as the survival of many German troops that got lost in these battles.With the arrival of ~half the Germans from Normandy & the Romanian front stable,the force ratio in Poland looks much nicer for Germany.More important,the density of the defense is incresead,mobile reserves are strong and the Germans have more fuel to maneuver. Guderian is the man leading the show.A Soviet victory is not certain.Forget about reaching Berlin in 2 months.The big question is not how fast the Soviets can reach the Rhine,but how many Seelow's can they afford.
    The Soviets can't become better,but the Germans can.Six months to prepare fortifications and train men,without being bothered in the West.
    If the Soviets don't win decisevely in their winter offensive,they have a problem.They are on their last manpower resources and have the perspective of breaking increasing fortified lines on narrower fronts,with little opportunities for surprise.Add the Allied sitting on their butts and Joe will think twice.

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  • Chogy
    replied
    Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
    We (the U.S.) could just go back home and stock up on nuclear weapons and B-36 bombers.
    Exactly. Once a major German city is nuked, the allies can dictate whatever terms they want. The alternative is nuclear fire and an obliterated Reich.

    Not as sexy as a campaign in the Balkans or through Italy and France, but much easier to execute. The Germans were nowhere near a nuke, and would have been unable to respond.

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  • Mandala
    replied
    Originally posted by snapper View Post
    Hitler then offers an armistice... He will liberate France.
    I do not think the liberation of France without an invasion was likely. In planning the Battle of the Bulge, and the defense of Berlin, Hitler demonstrated that he was intent on going down fighting. The failure of the invasion of Normandy would have convinced Hitler and many of his wavering generals that some kind of victory was still possible.

    Also I doubt Hitler would have trusted an armistice. He would suspect that if he gave up France the Allies would still invade Germany from the west.

    There may have been another invasion of France. It would have made more sense from the beginning to invade further south where German defenses were lighter.

    If an additional invasion of France had failed I suspect that the U.S. would have used atomic bombs on Germany, and that the War would have ended with the Soviet Army occupying all of Germany.

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  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    Simple.

    Once the Germans leave the Allies come back into France and now push to the German frontier with limited battles.

    Germany starts the fall on 1944 in the same position....but the Allies are actually stronger and their logistics position is better.

    No way in hell that FDR, Churchill, the American people and the people of the Commonwealth were going to the Nazis control central Europe.

    War ends in fall of 1945 as a couple of German cities are taken out with atomic bombs 3 & 4.

    By 1944 unconditional surrender was the ONLY way out for Germany.

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  • Skywatcher
    replied
    We (the U.S.) could just go back home and stock up on nuclear weapons and B-36 bombers.

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  • snapper
    replied
    Hence an Anglo American intervention in the Balkans to stop the Soviet advance to the Atlantic. Hitler never wanted 'lebensraum' in the Balkans or in the West and would trade France and the Balkans for his Eastern colonisation.

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  • Doktor
    replied
    I don't think Hitler would offer France right after his troops repelled the allies from landing in the said France.

    Even if he can send ALL of the western troops to the East, I don't believe he could have stopped the Soviets. Even more, it's commonly accepted opinion that failure of Overlord would bring Soviets at least to Rhine.

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  • snapper
    started a topic What if Overlord fails?

    What if Overlord fails?

    Say the great Anglo American invasion of France in June 1944 had failed... it's not inconceivable after all. So around July 1-3 Montgomery, still in operational command, is badly mauled and with no main harbours and the artificial 'mulberry' harbours wrecked the reinforcement rate simply isn't enough to support a build up and break out. He decides he has to get as many men back across the Channel as possible and a second Dunkirk occurs.

    Hitler then offers an armistice... He will liberate France.

    How long before the Anglo Americans can again launch a cross channel attack? 1945? Do they decide to enter the Balkans instead? Accept an armistice and get France? The French would urge an acceptance presumably. The US would Navy would want to get on with the Japanese war and might be inclined to accept.

    If the Western allies don't accept the armistice does Hitler have enough time to transfer forces to the Eastern front and stabilise if not defeat the Russian front before another cross channel invasion can be launched?

    If Britain and the US do accept the armistice does Hitler win in the East? How far does he go?
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