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ISI chief implicated in 9/11

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  • lemontree
    replied
    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    No, that is how you and many other rabid anti-Pakistan commentators see it.
    Your nation made the world rabid towards your nation, so dont blame us for our views.

    Only the Sardar/Wadera controlled Baloch and Sindhi tribes would side with the US, and together they make up an insignificant minority. Both Sindh and Balochistan have a significant population of Pakhtun, Punjabis and Muhajir groups, so there would be no 'neat and tidy delineation of warring sides' even in Sindh and Balochistan, and outside of India, no one really buys the argument of the residents of the Northern Areas supporting India or the US.
    That is what you would like to believe.

    That was not the point I was responding to, it was the claim by Zraver that an Iraq style transitional government would be in place in Pakistan right now had the US attacked Pakistan instead of Iraq.
    I agree with you. When the Pakistanis them selves cannot govern that state, how can a US installed govt govern!

    Understanding my posts before you comment would really help
    Try sticking to facts and not fairy tale, that would really help.

    Leave a comment:


  • Agnostic Muslim
    replied
    Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    The PA Generals, or atleast a section of them are paranoid about India. They want to start afresh, i.e. to compete with India starting from scratch, even if it means starting the race with both sides wielding wooden spears instead of guns and fighters. They don't want to go down alone, rather pull India alongwith.

    How/if they manage this is debatable, but they are likely to rush to their eastern borders with the first American bomb dropping on their head.
    The PA Generals are no more paranoid about India than the US Generals were about the Soviet Union during the Cold War, and some conservatives continue to be WRT China and Russia today.

    The whole 'start from scratch' canard is based on comments attributed to some retired officer working for some political party - using that to generalize sentiment across the entire PA Officer Corps would be silly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Agnostic Muslim
    replied
    Originally posted by lemontree View Post
    Pakistan as you see it are the Punjabi muslim sunnis.....
    No, that is how you and many other rabid anti-Pakistan commentators see it.
    the Baloch, Sindhis and Baltis would have sided with the US.
    Only the Sardar/Wadera controlled Baloch and Sindhi tribes would side with the US, and together they make up an insignificant minority. Both Sindh and Balochistan have a significant population of Pakhtun, Punjabis and Muhajir groups, so there would be no 'neat and tidy delineation of warring sides' even in Sindh and Balochistan, and outside of India, no one really buys the argument of the residents of the Northern Areas supporting India or the US.
    Irrespective of that, the US would have bombed you back to the stone age.
    That was not the point I was responding to, it was the claim by Zraver that an Iraq style transitional government would be in place in Pakistan right now had the US attacked Pakistan instead of Iraq.
    You have to get out of your "head in the clouds" type of belief that Pakistan is invincible.
    Understanding my posts before you comment would really help.
    Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 12 Sep 12,, 14:29.

    Leave a comment:


  • Deltacamelately
    replied
    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
    Maj,

    Thanks, for clarifying.

    This is the same logic with Iran will hit Israel, Bahrain and other nations that are friendly to USA in case of attack from US?

    Personally, I have issues with that logic. If a country is being attacked by the US military, their C&C will be hit first and hard. At least this is how I got it from Iraq and Serbia.

    How will they launch attacks on anyone after that?


    Then, there is the "get the nukes first" addition wrt Pakistan which makes the math weird.
    The PA Generals, or atleast a section of them are paranoid about India. They want to start afresh, i.e. to compete with India starting from scratch, even if it means starting the race with both sides wielding wooden spears instead of guns and fighters. They don't want to go down alone, rather pull India alongwith.

    How/if they manage this is debatable, but they are likely to rush to their eastern borders with the first American bomb dropping on their head.

    Leave a comment:


  • lemontree
    replied
    Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Wouldn't have worked - Pakistan is not Iraq, there is no 'majority sect oppressed by a minority dictator'. A US invasion would have only united the majority of the population of Pakistan, with only the handful of Baloch and Sindhi Feudal controlled groups aligning themselves with a US government.

    Your comment illustrates the problem with the thinking in US policy making circles - a detached, simplistic, 'head in the clouds' type of policy prescription for complex problems.
    Pakistan as you see it are the Punjabi muslim sunnis.....the Baloch, Sindhis and Baltis would have sided with the US.
    Irrespective of that, the US would have bombed you back to the stone age.

    You have to get out of your "head in the clouds" type of belief that Pakistan is invincible.

    Leave a comment:


  • Doktor
    replied
    Originally posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    Doktor,

    It ain't no US/Western pressure that might squeeze in India. Its the Paks. They would do every bit to pull in India along, while getting hammered by the US forces.
    Once in, it will be a pretty dirty war for all the belligerents.
    Maj,

    Thanks, for clarifying.

    This is the same logic with Iran will hit Israel, Bahrain and other nations that are friendly to USA in case of attack from US?

    Personally, I have issues with that logic. If a country is being attacked by the US military, their C&C will be hit first and hard. At least this is how I got it from Iraq and Serbia.

    How will they launch attacks on anyone after that?

    Then, there is the "get the nukes first" addition wrt Pakistan which makes the math weird.

    Leave a comment:


  • Socrates
    replied
    it would make the goverrment chosse there peole or the U.S most goverment would chosse to stay in power

    Leave a comment:


  • Deltacamelately
    replied
    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
    Maj,

    Why would India get squeezed? AFAIK, GoI was not backed in any of her wars.
    Doktor,

    It ain't no US/Western pressure that might squeeze in India. Its the Paks. They would do every bit to pull in India along, while getting hammered by the US forces.
    Once in, it will be a pretty dirty war for all the belligerents.

    Leave a comment:


  • Socrates
    replied
    but the american people would not stand by and watch with a smile they would takeit apone them self to fight or something they did it in ww2 a hole plane team fought with the English with out the goverment

    Leave a comment:


  • Agnostic Muslim
    replied
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Pakistan got lucky, if the US knew then what we know now, chances are Pakistan not Iraq would have seen a coalition government imposed.
    Wouldn't have worked - Pakistan is not Iraq, there is no 'majority sect oppressed by a minority dictator'. A US invasion would have only united the majority of the population of Pakistan, with only the handful of Baloch and Sindhi Feudal controlled groups aligning themselves with a US government.

    Your comment illustrates the problem with the thinking in US policy making circles - a detached, simplistic, 'head in the clouds' type of policy prescription for complex problems.

    Leave a comment:


  • Doktor
    replied
    Maj,

    Why would India get squeezed? AFAIK, GoI was not backed in any of her wars.

    Leave a comment:


  • Deltacamelately
    replied
    If anything, had the US attacked Pakistan with or without nukes, there would be a war India couldn't stop getting squeezed in.
    What that would lead to finally is anybody's guess?

    Leave a comment:


  • DOR
    replied
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    We were spinning wheels about this in another thread so i thought we'd look at it with a more narrow focus.

    The scenario is there are reliable intercepts that indicate the ISI chief interacting with the 9/11 plotters. The nature of those intercepts is less important than the link they establish. Whilst the information isn't directly incriminatiing it indicates that the chief was aware of the operation even suggest a degree of familiarity with it. And they leave the question of how involved the ISI were in 9/11 hanging. These intercepts are dated to before 9/11. Does not matter how old, a week, a month even more. But they occur before 9/11

    This comes to light in late 2001 as a result of coordinated intel efforts with other countries.

    The question is how significantly would this knowledge affect US strategy & deployment plans in the Afghanistan or would it continue unchanged as it has.

    Also, would it ever be in US interest to ensure that this information never became public ?

    If the public know the wiggle room is less. States can have secrets etc.

    What complicates this for me is its no longer about non-state actors but state actors that too at the top level.

    Follow the logic:

    “The scenario is there are reliable intercepts that indicate the ISI chief interacting with the 9/11 plotters.”
    * Henry Kissinger met with North Vietnamese negotiator Le Duc Tho on October 8, 1972.

    “The nature of those intercepts is less important than the link they establish.”
    * Six months later, the US and RVA launched the Cambodian Incursion.

    “Whilst the information isn't directly incriminating it indicates that the chief was aware of the operation even suggest a degree of familiarity with it.”
    * Therefore, Le Duc Tho must have known about the Cambodian Incursion.

    Leave a comment:


  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
    Agreed. I doubt they'd even see it coming. There would have to be an invasion of sorts though to secure their nukes. There'd have to be a very delicate political tight-rope walked to placate the Chinese, i.e. their people secretly embedded and China the destination of the removed nuclear devices and material, in just the same way it has to be arranged for the Russians to receive Syria's chemical etc stockpile.
    If Assad is forced out and the CW are removed, the US is the most likely destination. The incinerator in Pine Bluff, Arkansas is purpose built for destroying CW and has an observer network already in place. Russia doesn't want them, they are illegal and would just have to be destroyed anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Parihaka
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    3) We don't need nukes to bomb Pakistan back to the stone age.
    Agreed. I doubt they'd even see it coming. There would have to be an invasion of sorts though to secure their nukes. There'd have to be a very delicate political tight-rope walked to placate the Chinese, i.e. their people secretly embedded and China the destination of the removed nuclear devices and material, in just the same way it has to be arranged for the Russians to receive Syria's chemical etc stockpile.

    Leave a comment:

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