Communist German/Soviet Pact against Allies in 1939

[Jim Ray]

I have to honestly say that I think that the USSR and German counterpart could easily topple the European powers. The Russian tactics were targeted at charging enough troops that you could easily find weak points and massively expose them, and lets not forget that even with the low supplies and lesser advanced armor, the Russians had the comand of the most advanced and refined special forces units of the era and their main job was to wipe out targets such as AIRFIELDS, HARBORS, and MISSLE sites. Most likely theyd send in these units early to disrupt and cripple defences to pave ways for Soviet and German advancements on all fronts.
Lets also not forget that the Germans had n extremely large U-Boat fleet working constantly and the UK is on an ISLAND, so as long as the Germans could hold them off by sea, they were a fairly pointless ally to rely on
France ha advanced tanks but as previously said, they were at an evolutionary wall, and the soviets could easily run through a tank line, I mean seriously, they beat back the Nazis in , so
Stalingrad, mostly on freaking horseback. Also the soviets had dogs that they would train to crawl under tanks with bombs strapped to their chests to destroy tanks.
Japan had a decent military but they only really wanted China and wouldnt really care for the other factions unless they impeded that progress, so their nvy wouldnt hlp much until it was already too late. The USA might very well try to intervein somehow but lets be honest, the only reason they got into WW2 was because they were attacked. As long as the soviets, germans, and japs didnt touch them, they wouldnt get involved. Any dissagreements because id love to hear em

[dave lukins]

Fasten your seat belt Jim..put on your big jacket and await the flak....incoming

[Jim Ray]

Fasten your seat belt Jim..put on your big jacket and await the flak....incoming

haha. what do you think?

[Red Team]

Japan is an ally of the west against the communists.

Alright then the outcome of said conflict could actually tip over to the Allied forces' side. Japanese forces presumably in China and Korea would be able to tie down the ever vital Soviet Siberian divisions from the European Front, Her Majesty's Colonial forces would be free from fighting a foe in the Pacific, adding additional manpower to the ranks of Britain's defense forces. The US could be pressured over to the Allied side because of the natural mistrust of the Communists (Red Scare of the 1920s). Naval superiority in favor of the Allied powers (carriers and effective anti-sub warfare), ground superiority in favor of the German/Soviet pact (numerical superiority), air superiority would IMO be a crapshoot.

But a few other factors still leave me on the fence, the prevailing one being which side would get the bomb first...that would almost guarantee a victory for one side.

[Officer of Engineers]

I have to honestly say that I think that the USSR and German counterpart could easily topple the European powers.

And if France and Great Britain went on the attack?

The Russian tactics were targeted at charging enough troops that you could easily find weak points and massively expose them,

You have absolutely no clue to the writings of Mikhail Tukhachevsky and the practices of Georgy Zhukov.

lets not forget that even with the low supplies

16 armies with 45 days of supplies per campaign is low?

and lesser advanced armor,

T-34 and IS-2 is less advanced?

the Russians had the comand of the most advanced and refined special forces units of the era and their main job was to wipe out targets such as AIRFIELDS, HARBORS, and MISSLE sites.

Would you care to list some of them? Especially missile sites.

Most likely theyd send in these units early to disrupt and cripple defences to pave ways for Soviet and German advancements on all fronts.

Mind citing me a single campaign where this worked?

Lets also not forget that the Germans had n extremely large U-Boat fleet working constantly and the UK is on an ISLAND, so as long as the Germans could hold them off by sea, they were a fairly pointless ally to rely on

But you seemed to forget that the Germans lost the Battle of the Atlantic - to the Canadians.

France ha advanced tanks but as previously said, they were at an evolutionary wall, and the soviets could easily run through a tank line,

Mind wargaming me a Soviet army breaching the Maginot Line?

I mean seriously, they beat back the Nazis in , so Stalingrad, mostly on freaking horseback.

T-34s can't ride horses.

Also the soviets had dogs that they would train to crawl under tanks with bombs strapped to their chests to destroy tanks.

Yeah, you do know that dogs can't tell the difference between a T-34 and a Tiger.

Japan had a decent military but they only really wanted China and wouldnt really care for the other factions

So, the plastering they got in 39 was what?

The USA might very well try to intervein somehow but lets be honest, the only reason they got into WW2 was because they were attacked. As long as the soviets, germans, and japs didnt touch them, they wouldnt get involved.

Happy Times I & II

[Doktor]

Colonel got a new student enlisted.

Happy Times III

:pop:

[dave lukins]

Colonel got a new student enlisted.

Happy Times III

:pop:

I was thinking the Colonel was getting a little inactive so young Jim Ray will keep him on his toes. ;)

[1979]

the German attack:
http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/pdf/DL%20...20Part%201.pdf

[USSWisconsin]

haha. what do you think?

I'm glad you joined us, this sounds like it could be interesting. I too would like to hear about the missile sites the Soviet armies were designed to attack early in WWII and the great tank battles fought with dogs.

[Doktor]

I'm glad you joined us, this sounds like it could be interesting. I too would like to hear about the missile sites the Soviet armies were designed to attack early in WWII and the great tank battles fought with dogs.

+1. Was curious on missiles and dogs as well.

[1979]

the Mechelen incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia did not happened yet in this alternate timeline , do we assume it bound to happen ?

[zraver]

I have to honestly say that I think that the USSR and German counterpart could easily topple the European powers. The Russian tactics were targeted at charging enough troops that you could easily find weak points and massively expose them,

Got an example of this? Soviet tactics were an evolving process in WWII. In the early stages of the war often they did simply charge. This reflected the lack of experience among the newly minted field officers and a failure in both pre-war planning and current intelligence.

and lets not forget that even with the low supplies and lesser advanced armor, the Russians had the comand of the most advanced and refined special forces units of the era and their main job was to wipe out targets such as AIRFIELDS, HARBORS, and MISSLE sites. Most likely theyd send in these units early to disrupt and cripple defences to pave ways for Soviet and German advancements on all fronts.

What special forces? The most advanced SF units of the time 39-40 were German paratroopers and glider infantry trained to assault fortresses. I don't know of a single airfield assault in the early part of WWII and what missiles? seriously dude?

Lets also not forget that the Germans had n extremely large U-Boat fleet working constantly and the UK is on an ISLAND, so as long as the Germans could hold them off by sea, they were a fairly pointless ally to rely on

Two world wars in real history and the u-boat failed, it might work in this scenario but it might not. Regardless they got the BEF to France both times.

France ha advanced tanks but as previously said, they were at an evolutionary wall, and the soviets could easily run through a tank line, I mean seriously, they beat back the Nazis in , so
Stalingrad, mostly on freaking horseback.

Soviet mass might actually temp the USSR/GUSR to attack through the forts rather than through Belgium which might well decide the war long term if the assault fails. German super heavy artillery isn't ready yet. The Soviet's have a few KV-2's coming on line but can they get close enough on level ground to use their 152mm guns with anti-concrete shells?

Is Stalin going to risk showing the Germans the T-34 and KV tanks? German industry is still more efficient than the Soviets at this point.

Also the soviets had dogs that they would train to crawl under tanks with bombs strapped to their chests to destroy tanks.

Russian field mice did more damage

Japan had a decent military but they only really wanted China and wouldnt really care for the other factions unless they impeded that progress, so their nvy wouldnt hlp much until it was already too late.

Japan and the USSR clashed in 38, the Japanese Army which is the dominant political force is fiercely royalist and thus incredibly anti-communist. Japan's navy in early WWII is the most advanced in the world. The Japanese carriers and destroyers placed with British squadrons might well tip the balance in the Atlantic.

The USA might very well try to intervein somehow but lets be honest, the only reason they got into WW2 was because they were attacked. As long as the soviets, germans, and japs didnt touch them, they wouldnt get involved. Any dissagreements because id love to hear em

The US was already working on an inter-continental bomber to reach Germany before pearl harbor. US naval building was well underway and if Japan was no longer a threat those funds might be diverted to the army and air force especially as FDR has already ordered massive expansion of American air craft production.

[dave lukins]

Jim Ray...I did warn you about waking up the yard dogs ..did'nt I

[zraver]

the Mechelen incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia did not happened yet in this alternate timeline , do we assume it bound to happen ?

Not bound to happen since the Soviets may well not have allowed the development of German paratroops or Luftwaffe field divisions since that would add to their workload in monitoring the German military and give Germany a rapid reaction force against the Soviets or a force that could rapidly launch a coup against the communist government. In the real history of the Warsaw Pact the poles were not allowed an airborne division until a couple of years after Stalin's death.

The SS is obviously out, but the Hitler Youth is an easy analog transformation into the Young Novemberist. However some SS units would have analongs such as the Gestapo (KGB/NKVD equiv) and SS Polezi (police) and Totenkopft (Political Prison Guards).

Overall German performance is likely to suffer. Why many of the younger Prussian officers will throw in with the commies much like many czarist officers did, long term Prussian militarism and class arrogance is not going to sit well and they will be marginalized at best. For example, Rommel is from Wuttemberg so he is safe. Hausser (who retired in the inter-war period) is Prussian and wont be trusted for long. Kesselring is Bavarian so good but Erich Von Manstein, hell anyone with a Von is not going to be trusted.

Example of same famous German names from WWII who will likely not be trusted (why).
Willhelm List- served as a staff officer of the Imperial German Army (royalist)
Erich Von Manstein (Prussian)
Gunther Von Kluge (Prussian)
Heinz Guderian (Prussian)
Hermann Hoth (Prussian)
Felix Steiner (Prussian)

Besides Rommel the only cvommanders of immediate note are Fritz Bayerlein like Rommel from Wutternberg, however Rommel and Bayerlein are balanced by Kietel and Jodl... Both of those generals had the suction cup noses and show your belly groveling skills to climb any political system.

[Mihais]

Look Z,you've got some imagination,you came with scenario.Comie Germany isn't going anywhere until they solve their class problme.Meaning a sort of civil war before commie victory,a considerable exile and a fe millions dead.after that you won't have ''real'' Germans and not much of a resemblance to the Reichswehr or the Wehrmacht.You'll have just another Red Army with German sounding names or very likely another Soviet Republic.Right now I remember Aleksandr Vasilevsky who served as a junior Lt. in the Russian Army.Zhukov,Rokossovsky and the rest of the bunch were privates or NCO's.Meaning that very few of the actual German officers of WW2 will :a)live b)live in Germany c) be accepted in the army.

Now,if this nightmare would have happened,we'd see by early-mid 30's a few moves.First,everybody forgets anything about Germany as a bulwark against USSR(no Germany is part of USSR).France had ideological worries about USSR and nationalistic ones about Germany.That combines the 2.France in interwar era was relaxed because it felt powerful.It had Germany surounded by its eastern allies,it had the British navy and it felt they can prevent a repeat of 1914 thanks to monsieur Maginot.With all these,you can afford to have internal squabbles.But France did not lacked energy,bravery and skill when it had a challenge,as the Germans found out before and during ww1.You won't have neutrals.You'll have a Maginot line covering Belgian and Dutch borders.You won't have France ignoring the pleas of the eastern allies to give a helping with industrialization and you also won't have said allies so relaxed about USSR(they were a paria state and all Europe will come helping in case they come).You also won't have Italy affording diplomatic adventures in the East,meaning no revisionist Hungary or Bulgaria.

So,while I agree that the world is toast if Germany and USSR jump on it in 1939 in the historical situation of the world,the events prior to this would have also altered the face of the world.
Germany doesn't pay its debts,but the English and the Americans also don't waste their money,thus an easier depression.Britain and France start rearmament sooner and on larger scale.And with some industrial muscle,Romania,Poland and Czechoslovakia can put between 100 and 150 divisions,better armed and trained than was the case historically.Turkey can also be brought into this by showing strength.Italian army and fleet can also join the fun.

In the North,no Swedish iron ore for Germany.No German skill to the extent shown in the invasion of Norway means there's a good chance Norway stays on the side of the good boys,resulting in a showdown between the RAF and VVS over the Baltic,but there's a good chance the RN,the French fleet and the RAF can win this one.