Of note, Beatty entered the fight at Jutland at a speed of 25 knots (maximum speed) and the Grand Fleet at 18 knots (3 knot reserve).
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The throw weights of the competing open ocean high speed battle fleets. Of note the British has 4 gun classes in service, 3 of those classes each throws more steel than the entire US dreadnought fleet. Once of the classes (13.5) throws more steel than the US dreadnought and pre-dreadnought fleets combined. Max feasible Grand Fleet Broadside was 241.6 tons of steel per minute sent down range..... Theoretical maximum down range fire is 24,160 tons sent down range at 100 rounds per gun..... that is equal to the combined weight of the USS Maine BB10 and USS Missouri BB11...
US Navy
40 x 12/45 round 870lbs @2400fps
24 x 12/50 AP round 870lbs @ 2900fps
64x 14/45 1400lbs @2600fps
12" combined throw weight 55680lbs
14" combined throw weight 89600lbs
Combined US throw weight 145280lbs per combined broad side
With 12" pre-dreadnoughts thrown in (for an extra 62640lbs) 207,920
Royal Navy
76 x 12/45 850lb AP @ 2725fps
40x 12/50 850lb AP shell @ 2850fps
164 x13.5/45 firing 1265lb AP shell at 2582fps (note the 10 guns on the HMS Erin fire a lighter shell)
10x 14/45 1586lb AP @ 2500fps
84x 15/42 1920lb AP @ 2575fps
combined 12" throw weight 98600lbs
combined 13.5" throw weight 207460lbs
combined 14" throw weight 15860lbs
combined 15" throw weight 161280lbs
combined Grand Fleet throw weight 483,200lbs per combined broadside
Grand Fleet throw weight -10% 398880lbs
Grand Fleet throw weight -20% 350560lbs.
British numbers are for the Battle of Jutland OOB minus battle and post battle sinkins plus post battle commissions. British numbers are a tiny bit off becuase of HMS Erin but we are taking a portion of 1%.
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You know if they kept 1 reload per ship on hand and the equiv from 1906-1917 of one reload per ship in training shells thats equal to 3 more dreadnoughts- HMS Abundance Of Steel, HMS Downrange and HMS Donation To The Enemy.....
That is just for the dreadnoughts and battlecruisers....
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I'm going to take several posts to address your last post.
We've taken a solid look at the dire food and oil situation based on hard facts facing the UK.
I've taken care to take the time to make heavily detailed posts accurately depicting the cold, hard realities of the situation thus far (e.g. the severe food and oil crises).
In the first post, I'm going to address your North Sea pre-dreadnought strategy. Withdrawing the Grand Fleet from the North Sea:
No, I had the RN stop up the North Sea with the pre-dreanoughts.
Pre-dreadnoughts (48 completed 1892-1908)- 8 mothballed (Jupiter, Prince George [sickbay], Vengeance [partially disarmed], London, Venerable [undergoing refit until Jan 1918], Duncan [undergoing refit until Jan 1918], Ablemarle, Prince of Wales)
- 6 scrapped before war (Royal Sovereign, Ramillies, Royal Oak, Repulse, Resolution, Empress of India)
- 5 sunk at Gallipoli (Goliath, Irresistible, Majestic, Ocean, Triumph)
- 4 sunk by U-Boats or mines (Formidable, Cornwallis, Russell, King Edward VII)
- 3 deployed in Aegean Squadron, bottling up Goeben and Breslau (Implacable, Lord Nelson, Agamemnon)
- 2 converted into a depot ship (Illustrious, Mars)
- 2 in the South Atlantic (Africa, Brittania)
- 1 ran aground 1906 (Montagu)
- 1 converted into a troop ship (Hannibal)
- 1 converted to depot ship (Queen)
- 1 converted into an ammunition ship (Magnificent)
- 1 converted to anti-aircraft ship (Canopus)
- 1 deployed to Barents sea (Glory)
- 1 mothballed, under conversion to accommodation ship (Swiftsure)
- 1 in the Indian Ocean (Exmouth)
- 1 converted to repair ship (Victorious)
- 1 under refit (New Zealand)
sourceLast edited by tgbyhn; 27 Nov 11,, 12:45.
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below I identify 18-19 pre-dreadnoughts and a source of crews that can be rushed into service. The Italians and French might have to do a bit more work but they massively outgun the AH/Ottoman navies anyway. To those old war wagons are what ever dreadnoughts do not sail with the Grand Fleet likely 3-4 hull using Jutland as a guide. That gives the Home Fleet a force of 15-16 pre-dreadnoughts and 3-4 dreadnoughts at anyone time. Plus the French can provide 1 or 2 to give the North sea at least 1 full division of dreadnoughts. An ideal force to fend off the High Seas Fleet.... of course not, but when the course is do something and maybe lose the war or do nothing and definitely lose the war... Plus given the sheer size advantage of the Grand Fleet over the USN it might be able to spare an extra couple of dreadnoughts for the home waters. Generally speaking 2.5 pre-dreadnoughts equal 1 dreadnought in fore power. Home Fleet would thus be 9-10 dreadnought equiv, if the Grand Fleet left an extra 2 behind and France provided 2 that is a force of 14 dreadnought equiv against 24 dreadnought equiv of the KM. Again not ideal, but what do you do unless your advocating that that Britain would just surrender and walk away from her dead and her allies.
HMS Cornwallis is still afloat on 1 Jan 1917 so whens the war start?
HMS Jupiter in reserve
HMS Prince George.
HMS Ablemarle will refit in march and can likely be rushed back to service.
HMS Duncan is not in refit until April 17
HMS Prince of Wales not converted to an accommodation ship until march 17
HMS Queen still has her big guns until October 17
HMS Vengeance does not begin to be de-armed until 1918
HMS Glory in commission in Russia
HMS Albion in service as a guard ship
HMS Canopus not used as a depot ship until 1918 and is reserve in ordinary in 1917
HMS Caesar is in North America (doomed in this scenario)
HMS Commonwealth Nore command
HMS Dominion Nore command
HMS Hindustan Nore Command
HMS Britannia is in the West Indies until May 17 (doomed in the this scenario)
HMS Africa is at Gibraltar undergoing a refit of her secondary armament
HMS Hibernia Nore command
HMS Swiftsure is in Freetown
HMS Lord Nelson
HMS Agamemnon
To this can be added some RN sea monitors designed to block narrow passages or to provide crews for the mothballed vessels.
HMS Abercrombie
HMS Raglan
HMS Havelock
HMS Roberts
HMS Lord Clive
HMS Gen Crauford
HMS Earl of Peterbourogh
HMS Sir Thomas Picton
HMS Prince Eugene
HMS Prince Rupert
HMS Sir John Moore
HMS Gen Wolfe
HMS Terror
HMS Erebus
Italy
5x pre-dreadnoughts
5 dreadnoughts
France
14-15x pre-dreadnoughts (1 goes boom in march 17)
7x dreadnought
Greece
2x pre-dreadnought (from June 1917)
vs
Ottoman
1x pre-dreadnought
1x battle cruiser
AH
9x pre-dreadnought
4x dreadnoughtLast edited by zraver; 27 Nov 11,, 14:36.
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The Grand Fleet has an 18-day sail of 3500nm to the environs of Boston from the North Sea, if it takes the shortest possible route, without stopping to take on any fuel, food, or ammunition or encountering any problems. You've been saying 13 days with all of that and zigzagging. It's going to take more than 18 days, and certainly more than 13.
I maintain it's going to take the RN at least 5 weeks of preparation and travel. I'd be floored if anybody with expertise on naval issues and/or period history supported your numbers and disputed mine.
Plus the RN has 9 battle cruisers in 1917 plus the possibility of up to 7 French Dreadnoughts since by 1917 its obvious the AH navy is a non-entity.
Allied oil imports have plummeted by 90% - you're going to withdraw warships from the Mediterranean where the only remaining Allied oil is passing through? If I recall, you already stated that there would be an increase in remaining convoy protection.
Allied shipping losses in the Mediterranean in 1917 were 1.5 million tons, the peak year. There's obviously some kind of entity there. Shipping losses reached their peak in April - the same time you're saying warships could be withdrawn from the Med. Or strengthening naval presence. It seems you're of two minds on this point. You've gone back and forth on this a number of times.
As for the impact on the Western Front, if Allied offesnes get forestalled this actually leaves them in a stronger position than if they go forward... 1917 was ruinous for them.
And now apparently the Western Front is frozen in place without a shot or shell being fired until the RN completes the far-fetched strategy you've proposed, which, even if it were possible, would do nothing to restore fuel exports or the greater portion of food exports.
Much of the US fleet is likely off Vera Cruz or split between Newport News, Philidelphia, Boston navy yard, Washington Navy Yard, Gitmo, Brooklynn Navy yard, New London, Goat Island, Portsmouth Naval Yard (ME), Charleston Naval Yard (MA), Curtiss Bay USCG, Indian Head, Norfolk, Pennsacola.
The relative inactivity of the HSF led to increasing numbers of sailors volunteering for U-boats to be where the action was so those crews don't exist anymore. They are either on more modern ships, in a u boat or dead. You might be able to pull in cadres but the crews need to be trained up.
Then you got transit times from the German or Belgian submarine bases to the area of operations.
If the HSF knows... even money at best.
The RN is going to swamp the area with escorts, mines and torpedo nets.
Iceland, Halifax, Labrador.... they might get sick of fish but food and water can be had.
There is a British cruiser squadron in North America plus some lighter escort vessels. I don't think the Maine national Guard can cut Halifax given the number of armed Canadians there preparing to sail for France and the RN squadron.
Going back to your atom bomb argument.- In every contemporary and postwar assessment of Jellicoe, one word surfaces repeatedly, cautious. Your strategy is many things, but certainly not Jellicoe.
- A fleet nearly the equal of the Grand Fleet of Jutland bombarded the Dardanelles for 11 months to almost no effect.
- Conventional bombing raids of cities never forced Britain, Germany, or Japan out of the war in WWII.
- Every historical attack against the US has never demoralized her, but instead whipped its populace into a frenzy and provoked a mass war effort.
- RN salvos against coastal targets can't be specifically targeted.
- They're certainly unlikely to cause many civilian casualties as the approach of a large naval fleet is extremely obvious. There's a lot of time to get out of the way.
- A quick calculation of British dreadnought shell weight and storage capacity comes to about 25-30,000 tons for the 12-15 inch guns, doing less damage per ton compared to bombs dropped in WWII. You don't have enough ammunition for the job.
I guess you missed the point that ships or no ships those are trained troops and Canadians in 1917 were just as well armed as Americans...
The vast majority of Canadian forces in April 1917 were already deployed to Britain and France. There was no conscription yet at this point either.
When a country's transport infrastructure and population is strung out across 4000 miles within 50-75 miles of the enemy's border, there's going to be problems.Last edited by tgbyhn; 27 Nov 11,, 18:08.
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Striking Caesar and Brittania, I'll go over your list.
Pre-dreadnoughts
HMS Cornwallis is still afloat on 1 Jan 1917 so whens the war start?
--US entered war April 1917, as previously stated, sunk Jan 1918
HMS Jupiter in reserve
--several weeks to prepare
HMS Prince George.
--several weeks to prepare
HMS Ablemarle will refit in march and can likely be rushed back to service.
--undergoing replacement of guns until May 1917, several weeks to prepare
HMS Duncan is not in refit until April 17
--dubious a ship about to go a 9 month refit historically is going to be fit for duty
HMS Prince of Wales not converted to an accommodation ship until march 17
--US entered war April 1917, as previously stated
HMS Queen still has her big guns until October 17
--12 six-inch guns removed prior to April, left with 4 12-inch guns. Unlikely to be re-deployed within several weeks if even deemed fit for service.
HMS Vengeance does not begin to be de-armed until 1918
--several weeks to prepare
HMS Glory in commission in Russia
--at least two weeks out from nearest UK port, refuel, resupply, then sail to the North Sea
HMS Albion in service as a guard ship
--among the eight originally ready for duty
HMS Canopus not used as a depot ship until 1918 and is reserve in ordinary in 1917
--several weeks to prepare
HMS Commonwealth Nore command
--among the eight originally ready for duty
HMS Dominion Nore command
--among the eight originally ready for duty
HMS Hindustan Nore Command.
--among the eight originally ready for duty
HMS Africa is at Gibraltar undergoing a refit of her secondary armament
--performing convoy duty between Sierra Leone and Cape Town April 1917. 3500-6500nmi from North Sea.
HMS Hibernia Nore command
--among the eight originally ready for duty
HMS Swiftsure is in Freetown
--not paid off until Apr 12. You can have that one.
HMS Lord Nelson
--3500nmi from North Sea, not including refuel and resupply. Guarding the Goeben and Breslau.
HMS Agamemnon
--3500nmi from North Sea, not including refuel and resupply. Guarding the Goeben and Breslau.
So you have 9 available for service immediately. The rest will take several weeks to recrew, refuel, and resupply, or several weeks to transit to Britain to refuel and resupply before deploying to the North Sea.
To this can be added some RN sea monitors designed to block narrow passages or to provide crews for the mothballed vessels.- 7 monitors are engaged off Belgium against the German U-Boat port (Lord Clive, General Crauford, Prince Eugene, Prince Rupert, Sir John Moore, General Wolfe, Terror, Erebus). Redeploying or taking them out of service to crew pre-dreadnoughts is going to have consequences.
- 2 monitors are at Yarmouth (Roberts, General Wolfe)
- The crews from these 9 monitors can staff 2 pre-dreadnoughts.
- 5 monitors are in the east Mediterranean, mainly at the Dardanelles, some 3200nmi from Britain, a sail of at minimum 23 days to England using the shortest possible route running into no problems (Abercrombie, Raglan, Havelock, Earl of Peterbourogh, Sir Thomas Picton)
Italy
--5x pre-dreadnoughts, 5 dreadnoughts
France
--14-15x pre-dreadnoughts, 7x dreadnought
Greece
And again, despite your previous claims of the Mediterranean being a non-factor - 1.5 million tons of shipping were lost there in 1917, April being the peak month.
You can't play some numbers game as if there's no consequences.Last edited by tgbyhn; 27 Nov 11,, 18:39.
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Originally posted by zraver View PostBecause they can't fight in the battle line without dangerously slowing it down. They have the all big gun armament of the Dreadnought but not the speed. So does it matter if its armament or speed? A dreadnought is a fast (by 1906 standards) all big gun battleship and the South Carolina class doesn't meet that criteria. For example after taking a torpedo hit at Jutland the HMS Malbourough saw her battle speed reduce to 16-17knts from 18knts as reported by Sir Cecil Burney Vc Adm first battle squadron at 6:02pm. That is still faster than the South Carolinas... limit the US fleet to 15 knots in the open ocean vs the Grand fleet and it will be the end of the United States as a naval power. However, putting those ships in line with the pre-dreadnoughts greatly increases the power of the near shore 2nd class battle fleet as each one is effectively 2 battle ships worth of firepower.
First Battle Squadron (divisions 5 and 6)
Div 6 (Vc Adm Burney)
HMS Marlborough
HMS Revenge
HMS Hercules
HMS Agincourt
Div 5 (Vc Adm Guant)
Colossus
Collingwood
Neptune
st Vincent
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/bat...tml#post826975
This has evolved into a very interesting thread, thank you.sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."
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Originally posted by tgbyhn View PostThe Grand Fleet has an 18-day sail of 3500nm to the environs of Boston from the North Sea, if it takes the shortest possible route, without stopping to take on any fuel, food, or ammunition or encountering any problems. You've been saying 13 days with all of that and zigzagging. It's going to take more than 18 days, and certainly more than 13.
I maintain it's going to take the RN at least 5 weeks of preparation and travel. I'd be floored if anybody with expertise on naval issues and/or period history supported your numbers and disputed mine.
All those French dreadnoughts at this point are based at Salonika in the Aegean, 11-15 days sail from Gibraltar. They're likely there because their presence is necessary, and they're under French, not British control.
Allied oil imports have plummeted by 90% - you're going to withdraw warships from the Mediterranean where the only remaining Allied oil is passing through? If I recall, you already stated that there would be an increase in remaining convoy protection.
Allied shipping losses in the Mediterranean in 1917 were 1.5 million tons, the peak year. There's obviously some kind of entity there. Shipping losses reached their peak in April - the same time you're saying warships could be withdrawn from the Med. Or strengthening naval presence. It seems you're of two minds on this point. You've gone back and forth on this a number of times.
1917 gets more ruinous. It takes some twisted logic to turn this into a plus for the Allies. The Russian war effort has practically all but collapsed, with one last catastrophic offensive in July. The US has entered the war on the side of Germany. French morale is at its absolute low with the mutinies of 54 French divisions right around the corner. No reinforcements coming from overseas. Immediate cessation of shipping from virtually all overseas resources the Allies are dependent on.
And now apparently the Western Front is frozen in place without a shot or shell being fired until the RN completes the far-fetched strategy you've proposed, which, even if it were possible, would do nothing to restore fuel exports or the greater portion of food exports.
So the vast majority of the US fleet is within two days sail of it's northernmost major city.
You've got 8 dreadnoughts blockading Germany. Eight.
In your last reply, I was either "full of the brown stuff or stupid" for implying the U-Boats could even reach the United States. Which I disproved after citing evidence 88% of U-Boats the Germans built were capable of reaching the US with ease. They're just about as far as the Grand Fleet, and have much less serious logistical issues.
The High Seas Fleet is certainly going to know. Something as dramatic as the withdrawal of the entire Grand Fleet is going to be obvious.
You've got eight dreadnoughts facing 46 U-Boats and the High Seas Fleet. The ever-cautious Jellicoe didn't believe that the U-Boats could be defeated, yet he's supposed to instantaneously deploy mass countermeasures.
ya the ever cautious Jellico who started later with more units to move and still beat Scheer out of port.. Who during the night of the Battle of Jutland tried aggressively to get in front of the HSF to cut them off from Germany...
Reykjavik is further from Halifax than Queenstown, Ireland is. Iceland has 90,000 people, dirt poor.
The railway runs between within 15-20 miles of the Maine border for 100 miles, at distances between 375 to 500 miles from Halifax. Besides, there's any of number of points Canadian rail can be disrupted. The Canadian border is 4000 miles long. The overwhelming majority of Canadian transport infrastructure and population is precariously close to the US border.
Going back to your atom bomb argument.- In every contemporary and postwar assessment of Jellicoe, one word surfaces repeatedly, cautious. Your strategy is many things, but certainly not Jellicoe.
- dissagree
- A fleet nearly the equal of the Grand Fleet of Jutland bombarded the Dardanelles for 11 months to almost no effect.
- Conventional bombing raids of cities never forced Britain, Germany, or Japan out of the war in WWII.
- Every historical attack against the US has never demoralized her, but instead whipped its populace into a frenzy and provoked a mass war effort.
- RN salvos against coastal targets can't be specifically targeted.
- They're certainly unlikely to cause many civilian casualties as the approach of a large naval fleet is extremely obvious.
There's a lot of time to get out of the way.
- A quick calculation of British dreadnought shell weight and storage capacity comes to about 25-30,000 tons for the 12-15 inch guns, doing less damage per ton compared to bombs dropped in WWII. You don't have enough ammunition for the job.
The US doesn't need to besiege Halifax to cut it off. Winnipeg eliminates food. Points in Ontario and Quebec eliminate industrial goods. The US, obviously, is not supplying Halifax anymore.
Victoria isn't garrisoned, and I doubt Kingston is either. Singapore, 1942.
The vast majority of Canadian forces in April 1917 were already deployed to Britain and France. There was no conscription yet at this point either.
When a country's transport infrastructure and population is strung out across 4000 miles within 50-75 miles of the enemy's border, there's going to be problems.
Pre-dreadnoughts
HMS Cornwallis is still afloat on 1 Jan 1917 so whens the war start?
--US entered war April 1917, as previously stated, sunk Jan 1918
HMS Jupiter in reserve
--several weeks to prepare
HMS Prince George.
--several weeks to prepare
HMS Ablemarle will refit in march and can likely be rushed back to service.
--undergoing replacement of guns until May 1917, several weeks to prepare
And you base this on?
HMS Lion took 14 heavy caliber hits during Dogger Bank requiring reconstruction not just repair and she went from towed hulk to flagship between 9 Feb and 7 April. At Jutland she took 14 heavy hits and was laid up from 2 June to 19 July...
As for the ships on station elsewhere, its funny you claim the GF needs 5 weeks to even get underway, but doesn't have 2 weeks for pre-dreadnoughts to arrive...
And I will say it again for the French- if Britain starves, France learns German. The French navy will do what it is asked to do since its not just a hail mary pass for Rue Britannia but one for viva la France as well.
The monitors provide cadres, and the ones not near England can be docked and fast troop ships used... there were a number of those in WWI you know.
1.5 million tons lost to submarines.... which battleships spectacularly suck at stopping.
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An analysis of British cruiser strength (99 available):
Light cruisers (117 completed between 1891 and June 1917):
Out of this total, 69 out of 117 are unavailable, 1 is in the West Indies.
21 scrapped, sunk, or wrecked prior to April 1917
Aeolous, Indefatigable, Melampus, Pique, Retribution, Scyla, Terpischore, Tribune, Sybille, Forte, Gladiator, Hermes, Pandora, Perseus, Pegasus, Prometheus, Pathfinder, Falmouth, Amphion, Nottingham, Arethusa
2 under repair or laid up due to damage:
Charbydis (collision, laid up), Penelope (torpedoed, return to service 1918)
18 converted to minelayer, depot, or accomodation ship prior to April 1917:
Apollo, Andromache, Brilliant, Intrepid, Iphigenia, Latona, Naiad, Rainbow, Sirius, Thetis, Bonaventure, Cambrian, Forte, Eclipse, Furious (hulked), Pelorus, Pyramus, Blanche
2 mothballed prior to April 1917
Sappho, Pioneer
30 overseas April 1917:
Aegean: Forward, Foresight
Adriatic: Glasgow, Gloucester, Weymouth, Dartmouth, Bristol
Cape Station: Astraea, Hyacinth
East Africa: Minerva, Talbot, Prosperine, Challenger
East Indies: Doris, Venus, Sapphire, New Castle, Brisbane
Mediterranean: Sentinel, Skirimsher, Liverpool, Lowestoft
Elsewhere: Highflyer (West Indies), Psyche (Australia), Encounter (Pacific), Topaze (Red Sea), Ameythyst (South America), Fox (Red Sea), Diana (China Station/Red Sea)
Armored Cruisers (51 built between 1890 and 1909):
Out of this total, 30 out of 51 are not available. 11 are in the West Indies and under threat where they are or if they break out.
11 sunk or wrecked prior to April 1917:
Hawke, Cressy, Aboukir, Hogue, Good Hope, Bedford, Argyle, Hampshire (Lord Kitchener), Black Prince, Warrior, Natal,
9 converted to minelayer, depot, hospital, or accommodation ship prior to April 1917:
Gibraltar, St. George, Crescent, Royal Arthur, Argonaut, Amphitirite, Ariadne, Sutlej, Essex
2 mothballed prior to April 1917:
Diadem, Spartiate (stoker's training ship)
19 overseas prior to April 1917:
Aegean: Edgar, Endymion, Grafton
Mediterranean: Theseus
Cape Station: Kent
East Indies: Euryal
Pacific: Lancaster,
West Africa: Bacchante
West Indies: King Alfred, Drake, Leviathan, Cumberland, Cornwall, Suffolk, Devonshire, Antrim, Carnarvon, Roxburgh, CochraneLast edited by tgbyhn; 27 Nov 11,, 20:30.
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Originally posted by tgbyhn View PostElsewhere: Highflyer (West Indies), Ameythyst (South America)
The US has the following vessels that can catch the British ships on the East Coast
USS Olympia C-6
USS Columbia C-12
USS Chester SCR-1
USS Birmingham SCR-2
Of those 4 ships the Chester and Birmingham are super destroyers and all of the British cruiser classes in the West Indies horribly outgun them. The Olympia is the only ship with a comparable throw weight to the British ships but she is out ranged by many of them.
Assuming the British know war is coming as much as the American's do those ships will be headed South, then east to meet up and coal before crossing the Atlantic likely from South America to Africa then headed North.
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Originally posted by USSWisconsin View PostGood analysis of these ship's capabilities, I see you are using a different definition of semi dreadnought than the one I am familiar with (but this is only sematics, and doesn't change the tactical situation at all). I agree that those slow dreadnoughts would seriously impare the already slow USN battleline, it is sad that the US built such advanced ships (superfiring main turrets fore and aft, matching HMS Dreadnoughts broadside with two fewer guns) early in the dreadnought period, but crippled them with inadequate engines and low freeboard. This helps explain the South Carolina's short service lives, being scrapped as treaty consessions early in the game, when they were still quite young, though they were probably destined to suffer this fate regardless of the treaty, since they were never successful in their intended role (and they didn't have room for upgrades to turbines due to their compact size). The Delawares were much better in terms of engine upgradability, but still had many flaws, including being lousy sea boats (the Floridas were only marginally better). The fact that all four classes of US dreadnoughts were designed and laid down before any of them got to sea and permitted experience with the designs, made them all troublesome, and none of them were very good compared to their European counterparts. Had the treaty not been signed, they all probably would have been scrapped much sooner.
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/bat...tml#post826975
This has evolved into a very interesting thread, thank you.
The Kirishima found out a 2 knot speed advantage wasn't enough to save her and Admiral Lee handled the ship like a magician. Though the South Dakota did prove the wisdom of all or nothing armor.
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I think you missed the broader point.
You're taking 78 cruisers with you to North America. That means you have 9 pre-dreadnoughts and 9 cruisers in the North Sea after the Grand Fleet withdraws.
7 pre-dreadnoughts (1 Med, rest mothballed) and 15 cruisers (entire Med/Adr/Aeg deployment) available in several weeks.
That's next to nothing.
I'll be addressing your previous post in more detail.
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