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What if? The US entered WWI on the side of the Central Powers

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  • Of note, Beatty entered the fight at Jutland at a speed of 25 knots (maximum speed) and the Grand Fleet at 18 knots (3 knot reserve).

    Comment


    • The throw weights of the competing open ocean high speed battle fleets. Of note the British has 4 gun classes in service, 3 of those classes each throws more steel than the entire US dreadnought fleet. Once of the classes (13.5) throws more steel than the US dreadnought and pre-dreadnought fleets combined. Max feasible Grand Fleet Broadside was 241.6 tons of steel per minute sent down range..... Theoretical maximum down range fire is 24,160 tons sent down range at 100 rounds per gun..... that is equal to the combined weight of the USS Maine BB10 and USS Missouri BB11...


      US Navy

      40 x 12/45 round 870lbs @2400fps
      24 x 12/50 AP round 870lbs @ 2900fps
      64x 14/45 1400lbs @2600fps

      12" combined throw weight 55680lbs
      14" combined throw weight 89600lbs
      Combined US throw weight 145280lbs per combined broad side
      With 12" pre-dreadnoughts thrown in (for an extra 62640lbs) 207,920

      Royal Navy

      76 x 12/45 850lb AP @ 2725fps
      40x 12/50 850lb AP shell @ 2850fps
      164 x13.5/45 firing 1265lb AP shell at 2582fps (note the 10 guns on the HMS Erin fire a lighter shell)
      10x 14/45 1586lb AP @ 2500fps
      84x 15/42 1920lb AP @ 2575fps

      combined 12" throw weight 98600lbs
      combined 13.5" throw weight 207460lbs
      combined 14" throw weight 15860lbs
      combined 15" throw weight 161280lbs
      combined Grand Fleet throw weight 483,200lbs per combined broadside
      Grand Fleet throw weight -10% 398880lbs
      Grand Fleet throw weight -20% 350560lbs.

      British numbers are for the Battle of Jutland OOB minus battle and post battle sinkins plus post battle commissions. British numbers are a tiny bit off becuase of HMS Erin but we are taking a portion of 1%.

      Comment


      • You know if they kept 1 reload per ship on hand and the equiv from 1906-1917 of one reload per ship in training shells thats equal to 3 more dreadnoughts- HMS Abundance Of Steel, HMS Downrange and HMS Donation To The Enemy.....

        That is just for the dreadnoughts and battlecruisers....

        Comment


        • I'm going to take several posts to address your last post.

          We've taken a solid look at the dire food and oil situation based on hard facts facing the UK.

          I've taken care to take the time to make heavily detailed posts accurately depicting the cold, hard realities of the situation thus far (e.g. the severe food and oil crises).

          In the first post, I'm going to address your North Sea pre-dreadnought strategy. Withdrawing the Grand Fleet from the North Sea:

          No, I had the RN stop up the North Sea with the pre-dreanoughts.
          You have 8 pre-dreadnoughts available in April 1917. This element of your strategy is impossible to implement. Even I was dead wrong in quoting the total of these pre-dreadnoughts as having been part of RN strength in previous posts.

          Pre-dreadnoughts (48 completed 1892-1908)
          • 8 mothballed (Jupiter, Prince George [sickbay], Vengeance [partially disarmed], London, Venerable [undergoing refit until Jan 1918], Duncan [undergoing refit until Jan 1918], Ablemarle, Prince of Wales)
          • 6 scrapped before war (Royal Sovereign, Ramillies, Royal Oak, Repulse, Resolution, Empress of India)
          • 5 sunk at Gallipoli (Goliath, Irresistible, Majestic, Ocean, Triumph)
          • 4 sunk by U-Boats or mines (Formidable, Cornwallis, Russell, King Edward VII)
          • 3 deployed in Aegean Squadron, bottling up Goeben and Breslau (Implacable, Lord Nelson, Agamemnon)
          • 2 converted into a depot ship (Illustrious, Mars)
          • 2 in the South Atlantic (Africa, Brittania)
          • 1 ran aground 1906 (Montagu)
          • 1 converted into a troop ship (Hannibal)
          • 1 converted to depot ship (Queen)
          • 1 converted into an ammunition ship (Magnificent)
          • 1 converted to anti-aircraft ship (Canopus)
          • 1 deployed to Barents sea (Glory)
          • 1 mothballed, under conversion to accommodation ship (Swiftsure)
          • 1 in the Indian Ocean (Exmouth)
          • 1 converted to repair ship (Victorious)
          • 1 under refit (New Zealand)

          source
          Last edited by tgbyhn; 27 Nov 11,, 12:45.

          Comment


          • deleted
            Last edited by tgbyhn; 27 Nov 11,, 12:38.

            Comment


            • below I identify 18-19 pre-dreadnoughts and a source of crews that can be rushed into service. The Italians and French might have to do a bit more work but they massively outgun the AH/Ottoman navies anyway. To those old war wagons are what ever dreadnoughts do not sail with the Grand Fleet likely 3-4 hull using Jutland as a guide. That gives the Home Fleet a force of 15-16 pre-dreadnoughts and 3-4 dreadnoughts at anyone time. Plus the French can provide 1 or 2 to give the North sea at least 1 full division of dreadnoughts. An ideal force to fend off the High Seas Fleet.... of course not, but when the course is do something and maybe lose the war or do nothing and definitely lose the war... Plus given the sheer size advantage of the Grand Fleet over the USN it might be able to spare an extra couple of dreadnoughts for the home waters. Generally speaking 2.5 pre-dreadnoughts equal 1 dreadnought in fore power. Home Fleet would thus be 9-10 dreadnought equiv, if the Grand Fleet left an extra 2 behind and France provided 2 that is a force of 14 dreadnought equiv against 24 dreadnought equiv of the KM. Again not ideal, but what do you do unless your advocating that that Britain would just surrender and walk away from her dead and her allies.

              HMS Cornwallis is still afloat on 1 Jan 1917 so whens the war start?
              HMS Jupiter in reserve
              HMS Prince George.
              HMS Ablemarle will refit in march and can likely be rushed back to service.
              HMS Duncan is not in refit until April 17
              HMS Prince of Wales not converted to an accommodation ship until march 17
              HMS Queen still has her big guns until October 17
              HMS Vengeance does not begin to be de-armed until 1918
              HMS Glory in commission in Russia
              HMS Albion in service as a guard ship
              HMS Canopus not used as a depot ship until 1918 and is reserve in ordinary in 1917
              HMS Caesar is in North America (doomed in this scenario)
              HMS Commonwealth Nore command
              HMS Dominion Nore command
              HMS Hindustan Nore Command
              HMS Britannia is in the West Indies until May 17 (doomed in the this scenario)
              HMS Africa is at Gibraltar undergoing a refit of her secondary armament
              HMS Hibernia Nore command
              HMS Swiftsure is in Freetown
              HMS Lord Nelson
              HMS Agamemnon

              To this can be added some RN sea monitors designed to block narrow passages or to provide crews for the mothballed vessels.
              HMS Abercrombie
              HMS Raglan
              HMS Havelock
              HMS Roberts
              HMS Lord Clive
              HMS Gen Crauford
              HMS Earl of Peterbourogh
              HMS Sir Thomas Picton
              HMS Prince Eugene
              HMS Prince Rupert
              HMS Sir John Moore
              HMS Gen Wolfe
              HMS Terror
              HMS Erebus

              Italy
              5x pre-dreadnoughts
              5 dreadnoughts

              France
              14-15x pre-dreadnoughts (1 goes boom in march 17)
              7x dreadnought

              Greece

              2x pre-dreadnought (from June 1917)

              vs

              Ottoman
              1x pre-dreadnought
              1x battle cruiser

              AH
              9x pre-dreadnought
              4x dreadnought
              Last edited by zraver; 27 Nov 11,, 14:36.

              Comment


              • The Grand Fleet has an 18-day sail of 3500nm to the environs of Boston from the North Sea, if it takes the shortest possible route, without stopping to take on any fuel, food, or ammunition or encountering any problems. You've been saying 13 days with all of that and zigzagging. It's going to take more than 18 days, and certainly more than 13.

                I maintain it's going to take the RN at least 5 weeks of preparation and travel. I'd be floored if anybody with expertise on naval issues and/or period history supported your numbers and disputed mine.

                Plus the RN has 9 battle cruisers in 1917 plus the possibility of up to 7 French Dreadnoughts since by 1917 its obvious the AH navy is a non-entity.
                All those French dreadnoughts at this point are based at Salonika in the Aegean, 11-15 days sail from Gibraltar. They're likely there because their presence is necessary, and they're under French, not British control.

                Allied oil imports have plummeted by 90% - you're going to withdraw warships from the Mediterranean where the only remaining Allied oil is passing through? If I recall, you already stated that there would be an increase in remaining convoy protection.

                Allied shipping losses in the Mediterranean in 1917 were 1.5 million tons, the peak year. There's obviously some kind of entity there. Shipping losses reached their peak in April - the same time you're saying warships could be withdrawn from the Med. Or strengthening naval presence. It seems you're of two minds on this point. You've gone back and forth on this a number of times.

                As for the impact on the Western Front, if Allied offesnes get forestalled this actually leaves them in a stronger position than if they go forward... 1917 was ruinous for them.
                1917 gets more ruinous. It takes some twisted logic to turn this into a plus for the Allies. The Russian war effort has practically all but collapsed, with one last catastrophic offensive in July. The US has entered the war on the side of Germany. French morale is at its absolute low with the mutinies of 54 French divisions right around the corner. No reinforcements coming from overseas. Immediate cessation of shipping from virtually all overseas resources the Allies are dependent on.

                And now apparently the Western Front is frozen in place without a shot or shell being fired until the RN completes the far-fetched strategy you've proposed, which, even if it were possible, would do nothing to restore fuel exports or the greater portion of food exports.

                Much of the US fleet is likely off Vera Cruz or split between Newport News, Philidelphia, Boston navy yard, Washington Navy Yard, Gitmo, Brooklynn Navy yard, New London, Goat Island, Portsmouth Naval Yard (ME), Charleston Naval Yard (MA), Curtiss Bay USCG, Indian Head, Norfolk, Pennsacola.
                So the vast majority of the US fleet is within two days sail of it's northernmost major city.

                The relative inactivity of the HSF led to increasing numbers of sailors volunteering for U-boats to be where the action was so those crews don't exist anymore. They are either on more modern ships, in a u boat or dead. You might be able to pull in cadres but the crews need to be trained up.
                You've got 8 dreadnoughts blockading Germany. Eight.

                Then you got transit times from the German or Belgian submarine bases to the area of operations.
                In your last reply, I was either "full of the brown stuff or stupid" for implying the U-Boats could even reach the United States. Which I disproved after citing evidence 88% of U-Boats the Germans built were capable of reaching the US with ease. They're just about as far as the Grand Fleet, and have much less serious logistical issues.

                If the HSF knows... even money at best.
                The High Seas Fleet is certainly going to know. Something as dramatic as the withdrawal of the entire Grand Fleet is going to be obvious.

                The RN is going to swamp the area with escorts, mines and torpedo nets.
                You've got eight dreadnoughts facing 46 U-Boats and the High Seas Fleet. The ever-cautious Jellicoe didn't believe that the U-Boats could be defeated, yet he's supposed to instantaneously deploy mass countermeasures.

                Iceland, Halifax, Labrador.... they might get sick of fish but food and water can be had.
                Reykjavik is further from Halifax than Queenstown, Ireland is. Iceland has 90,000 people, dirt poor.

                There is a British cruiser squadron in North America plus some lighter escort vessels. I don't think the Maine national Guard can cut Halifax given the number of armed Canadians there preparing to sail for France and the RN squadron.
                The railway runs between within 15-20 miles of the Maine border for 100 miles, at distances between 375 to 500 miles from Halifax. Besides, there's any of number of points Canadian rail can be disrupted. The Canadian border is 4000 miles long. The overwhelming majority of Canadian transport infrastructure and population is precariously close to the US border.

                Going back to your atom bomb argument.
                • In every contemporary and postwar assessment of Jellicoe, one word surfaces repeatedly, cautious. Your strategy is many things, but certainly not Jellicoe.
                • A fleet nearly the equal of the Grand Fleet of Jutland bombarded the Dardanelles for 11 months to almost no effect.
                • Conventional bombing raids of cities never forced Britain, Germany, or Japan out of the war in WWII.
                • Every historical attack against the US has never demoralized her, but instead whipped its populace into a frenzy and provoked a mass war effort.
                • RN salvos against coastal targets can't be specifically targeted.
                • They're certainly unlikely to cause many civilian casualties as the approach of a large naval fleet is extremely obvious. There's a lot of time to get out of the way.
                • A quick calculation of British dreadnought shell weight and storage capacity comes to about 25-30,000 tons for the 12-15 inch guns, doing less damage per ton compared to bombs dropped in WWII. You don't have enough ammunition for the job.

                I guess you missed the point that ships or no ships those are trained troops and Canadians in 1917 were just as well armed as Americans...
                The US doesn't need to besiege Halifax to cut it off. Winnipeg eliminates food. Points in Ontario and Quebec eliminate industrial goods. The US, obviously, is not supplying Halifax anymore. Victoria isn't garrisoned, and I doubt Kingston is either. Singapore, 1942.

                The vast majority of Canadian forces in April 1917 were already deployed to Britain and France. There was no conscription yet at this point either.

                When a country's transport infrastructure and population is strung out across 4000 miles within 50-75 miles of the enemy's border, there's going to be problems.
                Last edited by tgbyhn; 27 Nov 11,, 18:08.

                Comment


                • I must admit, I am lost. Tho, it's good beef, pardon read :pop:
                  No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                  To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                  Comment


                  • Striking Caesar and Brittania, I'll go over your list.

                    Pre-dreadnoughts
                    HMS Cornwallis is still afloat on 1 Jan 1917 so whens the war start?
                    --US entered war April 1917, as previously stated, sunk Jan 1918
                    HMS Jupiter in reserve
                    --several weeks to prepare
                    HMS Prince George.
                    --several weeks to prepare
                    HMS Ablemarle will refit in march and can likely be rushed back to service.
                    --undergoing replacement of guns until May 1917, several weeks to prepare
                    HMS Duncan is not in refit until April 17
                    --dubious a ship about to go a 9 month refit historically is going to be fit for duty
                    HMS Prince of Wales not converted to an accommodation ship until march 17
                    --US entered war April 1917, as previously stated
                    HMS Queen still has her big guns until October 17
                    --12 six-inch guns removed prior to April, left with 4 12-inch guns. Unlikely to be re-deployed within several weeks if even deemed fit for service.
                    HMS Vengeance does not begin to be de-armed until 1918
                    --several weeks to prepare
                    HMS Glory in commission in Russia
                    --at least two weeks out from nearest UK port, refuel, resupply, then sail to the North Sea
                    HMS Albion in service as a guard ship
                    --among the eight originally ready for duty
                    HMS Canopus not used as a depot ship until 1918 and is reserve in ordinary in 1917
                    --several weeks to prepare
                    HMS Commonwealth Nore command
                    --among the eight originally ready for duty
                    HMS Dominion Nore command
                    --among the eight originally ready for duty
                    HMS Hindustan Nore Command.
                    --among the eight originally ready for duty
                    HMS Africa is at Gibraltar undergoing a refit of her secondary armament
                    --performing convoy duty between Sierra Leone and Cape Town April 1917. 3500-6500nmi from North Sea.
                    HMS Hibernia Nore command
                    --among the eight originally ready for duty
                    HMS Swiftsure is in Freetown
                    --not paid off until Apr 12. You can have that one.
                    HMS Lord Nelson
                    --3500nmi from North Sea, not including refuel and resupply. Guarding the Goeben and Breslau.
                    HMS Agamemnon
                    --3500nmi from North Sea, not including refuel and resupply. Guarding the Goeben and Breslau.

                    So you have 9 available for service immediately. The rest will take several weeks to recrew, refuel, and resupply, or several weeks to transit to Britain to refuel and resupply before deploying to the North Sea.

                    To this can be added some RN sea monitors designed to block narrow passages or to provide crews for the mothballed vessels.
                    • 7 monitors are engaged off Belgium against the German U-Boat port (Lord Clive, General Crauford, Prince Eugene, Prince Rupert, Sir John Moore, General Wolfe, Terror, Erebus). Redeploying or taking them out of service to crew pre-dreadnoughts is going to have consequences.
                    • 2 monitors are at Yarmouth (Roberts, General Wolfe)
                    • The crews from these 9 monitors can staff 2 pre-dreadnoughts.
                    • 5 monitors are in the east Mediterranean, mainly at the Dardanelles, some 3200nmi from Britain, a sail of at minimum 23 days to England using the shortest possible route running into no problems (Abercrombie, Raglan, Havelock, Earl of Peterbourogh, Sir Thomas Picton)


                    Italy
                    --5x pre-dreadnoughts, 5 dreadnoughts
                    France
                    --14-15x pre-dreadnoughts, 7x dreadnought
                    Greece
                    These ships aren't at the disposal of the Royal Navy. The French and Italians aren't going to sacrifice their interests and needs for the sake of an unrealistic British gamble. Furthermore, the Mediterranean would be almost completely denuded of naval forces. Suez is cut off, the Dardanelles are opened up, and there would be a cessation of shipping activity in the Mediterranean.

                    And again, despite your previous claims of the Mediterranean being a non-factor - 1.5 million tons of shipping were lost there in 1917, April being the peak month.

                    You can't play some numbers game as if there's no consequences.
                    Last edited by tgbyhn; 27 Nov 11,, 18:39.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                      Because they can't fight in the battle line without dangerously slowing it down. They have the all big gun armament of the Dreadnought but not the speed. So does it matter if its armament or speed? A dreadnought is a fast (by 1906 standards) all big gun battleship and the South Carolina class doesn't meet that criteria. For example after taking a torpedo hit at Jutland the HMS Malbourough saw her battle speed reduce to 16-17knts from 18knts as reported by Sir Cecil Burney Vc Adm first battle squadron at 6:02pm. That is still faster than the South Carolinas... limit the US fleet to 15 knots in the open ocean vs the Grand fleet and it will be the end of the United States as a naval power. However, putting those ships in line with the pre-dreadnoughts greatly increases the power of the near shore 2nd class battle fleet as each one is effectively 2 battle ships worth of firepower.

                      First Battle Squadron (divisions 5 and 6)
                      Div 6 (Vc Adm Burney)
                      HMS Marlborough
                      HMS Revenge
                      HMS Hercules
                      HMS Agincourt
                      Div 5 (Vc Adm Guant)
                      Colossus
                      Collingwood
                      Neptune
                      st Vincent
                      Good analysis of these ship's capabilities, I see you are using a different definition of semi dreadnought than the one I am familiar with (but this is only sematics, and doesn't change the tactical situation at all). I agree that those slow dreadnoughts would seriously impare the already slow USN battleline, it is sad that the US built such advanced ships (superfiring main turrets fore and aft, matching HMS Dreadnoughts broadside with two fewer guns) early in the dreadnought period, but crippled them with inadequate engines and low freeboard. This helps explain the South Carolina's short service lives, being scrapped as treaty consessions early in the game, when they were still quite young, though they were probably destined to suffer this fate regardless of the treaty, since they were never successful in their intended role (and they didn't have room for upgrades to turbines due to their compact size). The Delawares were much better in terms of engine upgradability, but still had many flaws, including being lousy sea boats (the Floridas were only marginally better). The fact that all four classes of US dreadnoughts were designed and laid down before any of them got to sea and permitted experience with the designs, made them all troublesome, and none of them were very good compared to their European counterparts. Had the treaty not been signed, they all probably would have been scrapped much sooner.
                      http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/bat...tml#post826975

                      This has evolved into a very interesting thread, thank you.
                      sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                      If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tgbyhn View Post
                        The Grand Fleet has an 18-day sail of 3500nm to the environs of Boston from the North Sea, if it takes the shortest possible route, without stopping to take on any fuel, food, or ammunition or encountering any problems. You've been saying 13 days with all of that and zigzagging. It's going to take more than 18 days, and certainly more than 13.
                        No I did not, do you know how to read? I said it was 13 days sailing from Derry at 12-13knots IIRC. if they bump it to 14knots they don't need to zig-zag (as much) as that was considered torpedo safe speed under normal conditions (HMS Marlborough was hit at 18 knots during Jutland but from a cruiser fired torpedo)

                        I maintain it's going to take the RN at least 5 weeks of preparation and travel. I'd be floored if anybody with expertise on naval issues and/or period history supported your numbers and disputed mine.
                        5 weeks.... it didn't take them 5 weeks to deploy to Dogger Bank or Jutland... Jellico had 48 hours from the warning from Room 40 to when the Grand Fleet left Scapa Flow and Cromaty 2.5 hours before the HSF. In 1990 the National Defense Reserve Fleet had ships activated, inspected, crewed, loaded and enroute within 2 weeks.


                        All those French dreadnoughts at this point are based at Salonika in the Aegean, 11-15 days sail from Gibraltar. They're likely there because their presence is necessary, and they're under French, not British control.
                        And if Britain starves France learns German....

                        Allied oil imports have plummeted by 90% - you're going to withdraw warships from the Mediterranean where the only remaining Allied oil is passing through? If I recall, you already stated that there would be an increase in remaining convoy protection.
                        The only battleship to sink a submarine was HMS Dreadnought and she did it by accident. You don't need battleships for convoy escoprt after the destruction of the KM true warships turned surface raiders.

                        Allied shipping losses in the Mediterranean in 1917 were 1.5 million tons, the peak year. There's obviously some kind of entity there. Shipping losses reached their peak in April - the same time you're saying warships could be withdrawn from the Med. Or strengthening naval presence. It seems you're of two minds on this point. You've gone back and forth on this a number of times.
                        1 mind, I'm talking about battleships. Escorts stay, the escort fleet for the Grand Fleet can be made up of the ships fleeing North American waters.


                        1917 gets more ruinous. It takes some twisted logic to turn this into a plus for the Allies. The Russian war effort has practically all but collapsed, with one last catastrophic offensive in July. The US has entered the war on the side of Germany. French morale is at its absolute low with the mutinies of 54 French divisions right around the corner. No reinforcements coming from overseas. Immediate cessation of shipping from virtually all overseas resources the Allies are dependent on.
                        But no Haig wasting men like they were grown like corn.

                        And now apparently the Western Front is frozen in place without a shot or shell being fired until the RN completes the far-fetched strategy you've proposed, which, even if it were possible, would do nothing to restore fuel exports or the greater portion of food exports.
                        There will be fighting and trench raids but no big offensives.

                        So the vast majority of the US fleet is within two days sail of it's northernmost major city.
                        no its not, its a lot closer than the GF but the US battle fleet is spread hither and yon from Gitmo to Maine

                        You've got 8 dreadnoughts blockading Germany. Eight.
                        and....?


                        In your last reply, I was either "full of the brown stuff or stupid" for implying the U-Boats could even reach the United States. Which I disproved after citing evidence 88% of U-Boats the Germans built were capable of reaching the US with ease. They're just about as far as the Grand Fleet, and have much less serious logistical issues.
                        They have much more serious logistical issues. Its 3700 miles from Belgium to New York in a straight short line, but the u-boats wanting to hunt in North America need to get off the main shipping lanes so they can run on the surface lets say that adds 15% so 4250 each way. At 5 knots that is 740 hours of sailing time or 30 days each way. That leaves 30 days for much slower patrolling and lurking as 90 days is the normal maximum for a patrol before stores run out.


                        The High Seas Fleet is certainly going to know. Something as dramatic as the withdrawal of the entire Grand Fleet is going to be obvious.
                        Knowing something is going on, and knowing what is going on are different things

                        You've got eight dreadnoughts facing 46 U-Boats and the High Seas Fleet. The ever-cautious Jellicoe didn't believe that the U-Boats could be defeated, yet he's supposed to instantaneously deploy mass countermeasures.
                        a bit more than that...

                        ya the ever cautious Jellico who started later with more units to move and still beat Scheer out of port.. Who during the night of the Battle of Jutland tried aggressively to get in front of the HSF to cut them off from Germany...


                        Reykjavik is further from Halifax than Queenstown, Ireland is. Iceland has 90,000 people, dirt poor.
                        Reykjavik to halifax Nova Scotia 2092 miles its 2900 miles from Halifax to Dublin, 2120 from Queens town.


                        The railway runs between within 15-20 miles of the Maine border for 100 miles, at distances between 375 to 500 miles from Halifax. Besides, there's any of number of points Canadian rail can be disrupted. The Canadian border is 4000 miles long. The overwhelming majority of Canadian transport infrastructure and population is precariously close to the US border.
                        And the Canadians won't defend themselves or repair rail lines? Its funny you seem to argue a fully staffed battle fleet needs 5 weeks but the US national Guard can deploy for operations in a foreign country and sustain operations and conduct force protection within hours of the guardsmen getting their call phone call ups... hate to tell you but there are no cell phones and those units need to assemble, drill, arm and train.

                        Going back to your atom bomb argument.
                        • In every contemporary and postwar assessment of Jellicoe, one word surfaces repeatedly, cautious. Your strategy is many things, but certainly not Jellicoe.
                        • dissagree

                        • A fleet nearly the equal of the Grand Fleet of Jutland bombarded the Dardanelles for 11 months to almost no effect.
                        not even close 1 dreadnought with 8x 15" and 16 pre-dreadnoughts with a guessed at average of 4 12"-13.5" guns each. That is 72 heavy tubes or the striking power of 6-7 dreadnoughts.

                      • Conventional bombing raids of cities never forced Britain, Germany, or Japan out of the war in WWII.
                      But they or the threat of them did force Holland, Poland, Spain and Denmark...

                    • Every historical attack against the US has never demoralized her, but instead whipped its populace into a frenzy and provoked a mass war effort.
                    • And the US has just as long a history of freaking out over perceived threats.

                    • RN salvos against coastal targets can't be specifically targeted.
                    • So they can hit an enemy ship traveling at 25 knots but not a building standing still....

                    • They're certainly unlikely to cause many civilian casualties as the approach of a large naval fleet is extremely obvious.
                    • true, it will be all over fox news and people will jump in their SUV's and drive away. How many bridges did NYC have in 1917, what was the ferry capacity? so do people in Baltimore head South or in Washington North? They can't both do it or they meet in the middle...

                      There's a lot of time to get out of the way.
                      Assume the average person had about the same mobility (shoe leather express) as the citizens of the ninth ward in NOLA in 2005... still think there is plenty of time?

                    • A quick calculation of British dreadnought shell weight and storage capacity comes to about 25-30,000 tons for the 12-15 inch guns, doing less damage per ton compared to bombs dropped in WWII. You don't have enough ammunition for the job.
                    • and how many 12" HE shells do you think it takes to bring down a building, break the water mains, start fires, knock out power, bridges and sewer? The Great San Fransisco Earthquake did its damage in breaking the water mains and starting fires. A fleet can do that to- or target pumping stations for the same effect.

                      The US doesn't need to besiege Halifax to cut it off. Winnipeg eliminates food. Points in Ontario and Quebec eliminate industrial goods. The US, obviously, is not supplying Halifax anymore.
                      Your really taking the whole minuteman concept a bit too far...
                      Victoria isn't garrisoned, and I doubt Kingston is either. Singapore, 1942.
                      Victoria or more accurately Vancouver Island is garrisoned, I already gave you the listing of the coastal defenses to which there is also a Japanese pre-dreadnought 2 modern crusers, the RNWMP (Mounties), militia, volunteers and recruits.

                      The vast majority of Canadian forces in April 1917 were already deployed to Britain and France. There was no conscription yet at this point either.
                      The Canadians deployed 500,000 men (and 150,000 women) to Europe in 5 divisions... so are you going to tell me those divisions were 100k each or there was a stead stream of volunteers?

                      When a country's transport infrastructure and population is strung out across 4000 miles within 50-75 miles of the enemy's border, there's going to be problems.
                      Ya, but that works both ways.

                      Pre-dreadnoughts
                      HMS Cornwallis is still afloat on 1 Jan 1917 so whens the war start?
                      --US entered war April 1917, as previously stated, sunk Jan 1918
                      True enough but depending on when tensions build she may not have been at the place and time...

                      HMS Jupiter in reserve
                      --several weeks to prepare
                      HMS Prince George.
                      --several weeks to prepare
                      HMS Ablemarle will refit in march and can likely be rushed back to service.
                      --undergoing replacement of guns until May 1917, several weeks to prepare
                      et al...

                      And you base this on?

                      HMS Lion took 14 heavy caliber hits during Dogger Bank requiring reconstruction not just repair and she went from towed hulk to flagship between 9 Feb and 7 April. At Jutland she took 14 heavy hits and was laid up from 2 June to 19 July...

                      As for the ships on station elsewhere, its funny you claim the GF needs 5 weeks to even get underway, but doesn't have 2 weeks for pre-dreadnoughts to arrive...

                      And I will say it again for the French- if Britain starves, France learns German. The French navy will do what it is asked to do since its not just a hail mary pass for Rue Britannia but one for viva la France as well.

                      The monitors provide cadres, and the ones not near England can be docked and fast troop ships used... there were a number of those in WWI you know.

                      1.5 million tons lost to submarines.... which battleships spectacularly suck at stopping.

                      Comment


                      • An analysis of British cruiser strength (99 available):

                        Light cruisers (117 completed between 1891 and June 1917):

                        Out of this total, 69 out of 117 are unavailable, 1 is in the West Indies.

                        21 scrapped, sunk, or wrecked prior to April 1917
                        Aeolous, Indefatigable, Melampus, Pique, Retribution, Scyla, Terpischore, Tribune, Sybille, Forte, Gladiator, Hermes, Pandora, Perseus, Pegasus, Prometheus, Pathfinder, Falmouth, Amphion, Nottingham, Arethusa

                        2 under repair or laid up due to damage:
                        Charbydis (collision, laid up), Penelope (torpedoed, return to service 1918)

                        18 converted to minelayer, depot, or accomodation ship prior to April 1917:
                        Apollo, Andromache, Brilliant, Intrepid, Iphigenia, Latona, Naiad, Rainbow, Sirius, Thetis, Bonaventure, Cambrian, Forte, Eclipse, Furious (hulked), Pelorus, Pyramus, Blanche

                        2 mothballed prior to April 1917
                        Sappho, Pioneer

                        30 overseas April 1917:
                        Aegean: Forward, Foresight
                        Adriatic: Glasgow, Gloucester, Weymouth, Dartmouth, Bristol
                        Cape Station: Astraea, Hyacinth
                        East Africa: Minerva, Talbot, Prosperine, Challenger
                        East Indies: Doris, Venus, Sapphire, New Castle, Brisbane
                        Mediterranean: Sentinel, Skirimsher, Liverpool, Lowestoft
                        Elsewhere: Highflyer (West Indies), Psyche (Australia), Encounter (Pacific), Topaze (Red Sea), Ameythyst (South America), Fox (Red Sea), Diana (China Station/Red Sea)

                        Armored Cruisers (51 built between 1890 and 1909):

                        Out of this total, 30 out of 51 are not available. 11 are in the West Indies and under threat where they are or if they break out.

                        11 sunk or wrecked prior to April 1917:
                        Hawke, Cressy, Aboukir, Hogue, Good Hope, Bedford, Argyle, Hampshire (Lord Kitchener), Black Prince, Warrior, Natal,

                        9 converted to minelayer, depot, hospital, or accommodation ship prior to April 1917:
                        Gibraltar, St. George, Crescent, Royal Arthur, Argonaut, Amphitirite, Ariadne, Sutlej, Essex

                        2 mothballed prior to April 1917:
                        Diadem, Spartiate (stoker's training ship)

                        19 overseas prior to April 1917:
                        Aegean: Edgar, Endymion, Grafton
                        Mediterranean: Theseus
                        Cape Station: Kent
                        East Indies: Euryal
                        Pacific: Lancaster,
                        West Africa: Bacchante
                        West Indies: King Alfred, Drake, Leviathan, Cumberland, Cornwall, Suffolk, Devonshire, Antrim, Carnarvon, Roxburgh, Cochrane
                        Last edited by tgbyhn; 27 Nov 11,, 20:30.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tgbyhn View Post
                          Elsewhere: Highflyer (West Indies), Ameythyst (South America)
                          et al.

                          The US has the following vessels that can catch the British ships on the East Coast

                          USS Olympia C-6
                          USS Columbia C-12
                          USS Chester SCR-1
                          USS Birmingham SCR-2

                          Of those 4 ships the Chester and Birmingham are super destroyers and all of the British cruiser classes in the West Indies horribly outgun them. The Olympia is the only ship with a comparable throw weight to the British ships but she is out ranged by many of them.

                          Assuming the British know war is coming as much as the American's do those ships will be headed South, then east to meet up and coal before crossing the Atlantic likely from South America to Africa then headed North.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by USSWisconsin View Post
                            Good analysis of these ship's capabilities, I see you are using a different definition of semi dreadnought than the one I am familiar with (but this is only sematics, and doesn't change the tactical situation at all). I agree that those slow dreadnoughts would seriously impare the already slow USN battleline, it is sad that the US built such advanced ships (superfiring main turrets fore and aft, matching HMS Dreadnoughts broadside with two fewer guns) early in the dreadnought period, but crippled them with inadequate engines and low freeboard. This helps explain the South Carolina's short service lives, being scrapped as treaty consessions early in the game, when they were still quite young, though they were probably destined to suffer this fate regardless of the treaty, since they were never successful in their intended role (and they didn't have room for upgrades to turbines due to their compact size). The Delawares were much better in terms of engine upgradability, but still had many flaws, including being lousy sea boats (the Floridas were only marginally better). The fact that all four classes of US dreadnoughts were designed and laid down before any of them got to sea and permitted experience with the designs, made them all troublesome, and none of them were very good compared to their European counterparts. Had the treaty not been signed, they all probably would have been scrapped much sooner.
                            http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/bat...tml#post826975

                            This has evolved into a very interesting thread, thank you.
                            Thanks, figure multi-dimensional thinking works at sea too... its not all gun power as the Graff Spee discovered at the River Platte, and not all speed as the HMS Indefatigable discovered at Jutland. Of all the treaty legal ships and as a native Washingtonian I like the North Carolina class the best good speed, massive broadside, good protection.

                            The Kirishima found out a 2 knot speed advantage wasn't enough to save her and Admiral Lee handled the ship like a magician. Though the South Dakota did prove the wisdom of all or nothing armor.

                            Comment


                            • I think you missed the broader point.

                              You're taking 78 cruisers with you to North America. That means you have 9 pre-dreadnoughts and 9 cruisers in the North Sea after the Grand Fleet withdraws.

                              7 pre-dreadnoughts (1 Med, rest mothballed) and 15 cruisers (entire Med/Adr/Aeg deployment) available in several weeks.

                              That's next to nothing.

                              I'll be addressing your previous post in more detail.

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