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OK my next 'What if' - Midway.

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  • #16
    The biggest faults in the Battles for Iron Bottom Sound were US admirals who did not take advantage of the radar found mostly on the US destroyers. The destroyers should have been let loose to make torpedo attacks early instead of being tied to the cruiser formations.

    James Hornfischer covers all of this very well in his excellent work "Neptune's Inferno".

    SO much of the USN's shortcomings off Guadalcanal were the result of dated doctrine and tactics.


    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
      The biggest faults in the Battles for Iron Bottom Sound were US admirals who did not take advantage of the radar found mostly on the US destroyers. The destroyers should have been let loose to make torpedo attacks early instead of being tied to the cruiser formations.

      James Hornfischer covers all of this very well in his excellent work "Neptune's Inferno".

      SO much of the USN's shortcomings off Guadalcanal were the result of dated doctrine and tactics.

      IIRC, USS Fletcher was there with modern radar but was at the tail, not the van. With Bode asleep and scared to use his own radar....

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      • #18
        Originally posted by zraver View Post

        IIRC, USS Fletcher was there with modern radar but was at the tail, not the van. With Bode asleep and scared to use his own radar....
        Yup...shitty tactics. DDs with radar should have been in the van and launching torpedoes. Those are the tactics which Burke and others pushed through. And the cruiser admirals who survived used that tactic to good stead further up the slot.
        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
        Mark Twain

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
          The biggest faults in the Battles for Iron Bottom Sound were US admirals who did not take advantage of the radar found mostly on the US destroyers. The destroyers should have been let loose to make torpedo attacks early instead of being tied to the cruiser formations.

          James Hornfischer covers all of this very well in his excellent work "Neptune's Inferno".

          SO much of the USN's shortcomings off Guadalcanal were the result of dated doctrine and tactics.

          Given that Guadalcanal was in the middle of 1942 and BuOrd was still saying the fault of the Mark 13 and Mark 6 torpedoes launched by planes and subs was operator error, which we know is wrong, would the torpedoes (Mark 15) on those DDs been any different? I believe they weren't with issues running deep and premature exploder issues ala the Mark 6. I think all our torpedoes would accomplish back then was to alert we were there if they hadn't already spotted us.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

            Given that Guadalcanal was in the middle of 1942 and BuOrd was still saying the fault of the Mark 13 and Mark 6 torpedoes launched by planes and subs was operator error, which we know is wrong, would the torpedoes (Mark 15) on those DDs been any different? I believe they weren't with issues running deep and premature exploder issues ala the Mark 6. I think all our torpedoes would accomplish back then was to alert we were there if they hadn't already spotted us.
            AFAIK, they had the same problems for the same reasons. They were tested in waters that had different temperature and salinity than the Pacific where they were used and this caused depth control issues. The magnetic exploders were also tested in an area that had different background magnetism than the pacific and so often failed to explode.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post

              Given that Guadalcanal was in the middle of 1942 and BuOrd was still saying the fault of the Mark 13 and Mark 6 torpedoes launched by planes and subs was operator error, which we know is wrong, would the torpedoes (Mark 15) on those DDs been any different? I believe they weren't with issues running deep and premature exploder issues ala the Mark 6. I think all our torpedoes would accomplish back then was to alert we were there if they hadn't already spotted us.
              They shared some of the issues but not quite as much as the Mark 14. Still, torpedo tracks in the water would cause the Japanese formations to break up. The IJN was able to keep fleet integrity in most of the surface actions until the doctrine shifted. The Battle of Vella Gulf in August 43 was really the first time where the right doctrine was used with DDs launching torpedo attacks early and caused damage to the IJN before the DDs & CLs opened fire.
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

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              • #22
                Originally posted by zraver View Post

                IIRC, USS Fletcher was there with modern radar but was at the tail, not the van. With Bode asleep and scared to use his own radar....
                Bode was in the first battle. Fletcher made the second.

                First battle DDs were Gleeves class for the most part. No Fletchers

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post

                  Bode was in the first battle. Fletcher made the second.

                  First battle DDs were Gleeves class for the most part. No Fletchers
                  Yeah, I thought the first Guadalcanal battle for the Fletcher was Naval Battle of Guadalcanal

                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post

                    Bode was in the first battle. Fletcher made the second.

                    First battle DDs were Gleeves class for the most part. No Fletchers
                    Yeah I got that wrong


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                    • #25
                      I know some of the Gleeves were retrofitted for fire control and air search radars but not sure what the mix was off of Guadalcanal before the Fletchers showed up, which came out of the box with those radar suites.
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

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                      • #26
                        Benson/Gleeves came with SA long range search and Mk-4 FC radar on the Mk-37 mount. Going off memory all my references are packed up

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