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Mao's Great Famine
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Originally posted by tantalus View PostI was musing in regard to outside China, and also in regard to general attitudes of sympathy of an apologist nature that you get from some people in regard to the failure of communism.
It took one post from Citanon describing what he grew up with that I realized that DXP's China ain't any better than Hitler's Germany.
The excesses of Mao's GLF and GPCR overshadowed DXP's authoritarian rule in China. Compare to Mao, Deng was a God's gift to China ... but his methods were no better than the Nazis ... and at times, surpasses the Nazis. He wasted 30,000 men just so he can cut down the army's political power saying the army can't even fight a war in Vietnam.
My point is ... if you want to understand ... talk to a Chinese who lived through it.
Within context, there was no Somalia. There was no mass migration of people looking for food. People went hungry and people died but at no point did this famine looked like anything like famines of the past. Food was taken from the weak and given to the strong and those deaths were not recorded as starvation.
Also, Western observers did this no favours when they counted population loss with the inclusions of those not borned. The most touted about figure of 45 million dead includes those not borned. They call it population loss and not deaths. People didn't die. They were just not borned.Chimo
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I have read the book, and had the chance to hear Prof. Dikotter speak on it shortly after it came out. I asked him about his sources, and he was very open about having had a unique opportunity to access documents that would probably not be seen by researchers again for 50 years, if ever. The stories of how he obtained access are worth repeating.
When he was doing his research, about 10-15 years ago, provincial libraries and official document centers were uncertain as to what should be available to scholars, what should only be available to Chinese scholars, what should only be available with special permission and what should never see the light of day. Gansu was particularly fertile ground for his work: apparently they were so used to being ignored that they were honored to have him interested in their history.
My favorite story: If a file of documents was not forthcoming, he would ask for the next file, or the previous one. Frequently, he found that bundles of files were presented to him, including the one he really wanted.
--"Sorry, you can't see June 17, 1959."
--"Um, how about June 16 and June 18?"
--"Sure, no problem."
The book is extremely well researched, within the confines of other researchers not being able to duplicate his work. He readily acknowledges this, and provides probably too many examples as a way of showing that he really saw the documents he uses as sources.
Highly recommended for the serious scholar, with a strong stomach and a good knowledge of China in the 1950s.Trust me?
I'm an economist!
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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostI had a sorta respects for Deng Xia Peng until I met a Chinese, Citanon who told me otherwise. At one time, to me, DXP represented a great leader with a great vision. He took a 19th Century China, dragged her butt into the 20th Century, and kicked her ass into the 21st Century ... and China could not be where she is today without that action.
It took one post from Citanon describing what he grew up with that I realized that DXP's China ain't any better than Hitler's Germany.
The excesses of Mao's GLF and GPCR overshadowed DXP's authoritarian rule in China. Compare to Mao, Deng was a God's gift to China ... but his methods were no better than the Nazis ... and at times, surpasses the Nazis. He wasted 30,000 men just so he can cut down the army's political power saying the army can't even fight a war in Vietnam.
edit. It probably is only fair at this point to say that it is difficult to judge were people really stood, public statements were often made to appease Mao, real opinions and decisions made in the background may often have contradicted such statements.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
My point is ... if you want to understand ... talk to a Chinese who lived through it.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
Within context, there was no Somalia. There was no mass migration of people looking for food.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
People went hungry and people died but at no point did this famine looked like anything like famines of the past.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostFood was taken from the weak and given to the strong and those deaths were not recorded as starvation.
Also, Western observers did this no favours when they counted population loss with the inclusions of those not borned. The most touted about figure of 45 million dead includes those not borned. They call it population loss and not deaths. People didn't die. They were just not borned.Last edited by tantalus; 12 Nov 14,, 13:55.
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Originally posted by DOR View Postand he was very open about having had a unique opportunity to access documents that would probably not be seen by researchers again for 50 years, if ever. The stories of how he obtained access are worth repeating.Originally posted by DOR View Post
provincial libraries and official document centers were uncertain as to what should be available to scholars,
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