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Korean War: An Unprepared War for China

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  • #16
    Originally posted by deadkenny
    I'm still in the 'traditional' camp along with Max Hastings et al until I read something more authoritative though. There's little doubt that the Soviet Union initially armed the North Koreans, but suggesting that both China and the Soviet Union were both 'involved' together with North Korea's prep's for the invasion of the South would seem to suggest more cooperation between Moscow and Beijing than existed at the time.
    What?! China and the Soviet Union were about as close, maybe closer in the 1950s, than the US and UK are today. Only when Mao wanted more say in global matters did the Soviets get annoyed at the Chinese. They broke off relations in the late 50s or early 60s if I remember correctly.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by gunnut
      What?! China and the Soviet Union were about as close, maybe closer in the 1950s, than the US and UK are today. Only when Mao wanted more say in global matters did the Soviets get annoyed at the Chinese. They broke off relations in the late 50s or early 60s if I remember correctly.
      Yes, that sounds about right for the 'open' falling out between the Soviets and PRC. I wasn't referring to that, but rather a simple absence of collaboration or cooperation between them in the lead up to the invasion of the South by the North. Some sources portray the situation as more of a rivalry between Moscow and Beijing, and NK moving away from Moscow and leaning more towards Beijing. However, there is obviously still some debate about these issues in the academic community, with new views being put forward as the 'academic climate' changes, and new information becomes available.

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      • #18
        While both Stalin and Mao didn't particularly like one another, I am willing to believe that they were capable of working together to further their own ends on the Korean peninsula.

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        • #19
          July,13.1950. The Central Military Committee of China made a decision to secure its northeast border by manoeuvring 4 elite armies
          July,24.The 38th army arrived at Fengcheng
          July,25.The 39th army arrived at Liaoyang
          July,26.The 40th army arrived at Dandong
          Sep,29.UN troops arrived at 38th parallel
          Oct,5. After a long debate,Politics Bureau of China had finally made a decision to intervene.Appointed Pengdehuai as the commander
          Oct,25.CPV engaged with South troops
          Nov,1. CPV engaged with US 1st Cavalry Division

          there were only 20 days between china made the decision and engaged with UN troops.in addition to the air cover and land force furnishment as well as the finance,china was far from "prepared" or "sufficient".
          Last edited by Davis_Chan; 04 Sep 06,, 11:05.
          It was when the Great Way declined,that human kindness and morality arose.
          It was when intelligence and knowledge appeared,that the Great Artifice began.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
            It wasn't well planned? What kind of stupid idiotic propaganda horse pucky is that?
            It's the best propaganda that the yuan can buy

            The Korean War is not exactly my forte and even I could see CCP horse hockey written all over that article.

            I love the part where historians don't know who fired the first shot.

            Could it have been one of those hundred or so Inmin'gun T-34's that lunged across the border into South Korea?

            They must've gotten lost...been part of a convoy or something.
            “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
            ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Davis_Chan
              July,13.1950. The Central Military Committee of China made a decision to secure its northeast border by manoeuvring 4 elite armies
              July,24.The 38th army arrived at Fengcheng
              July,25.The 39th army arrived at Liaoyang
              July,26.The 40th army arrived at Dandong
              Sep,29.UN troops arrived at 38th parallel
              Oct,5. After a long debate,Politics Bureau of China had finally made a decision to intervene.Appointed Pengdehuai as the commander
              Oct,25.PVA engaged with South troops
              Nov,1. PVA engaged with US 1th division

              there were only 20 days between china made the decision and engaged with UN troops.in addition to the air cover and land force furnishment as well as the finance,china was far from "prepared" or "sufficient"
              ROTFLMAO!!!!!!! Good one. Real good one. And you believed it? **** ah, wiping a tear from my eye ***
              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 04 Sep 06,, 04:48.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Davis_Chan
                July,13.1950. The Central Military Committee of China made a decision to secure its northeast border by manoeuvring 4 elite armies
                July,24.The 38th army arrived at Fengcheng
                July,25.The 39th army arrived at Liaoyang
                July,26.The 40th army arrived at Dandong
                Sep,29.UN troops arrived at 38th parallel
                Oct,5. After a long debate,Politics Bureau of China had finally made a decision to intervene.Appointed Pengdehuai as the commander
                Oct,25.PVA engaged with South troops
                Nov,1. PVA engaged with US 1th division

                there were only 20 days between china made the decision and engaged with UN troops.in addition to the air cover and land force furnishment as well as the finance,china was far from "prepared" or "sufficient".
                And what were they doing before they started the discussion about intervening in the Korean War? Sitting around? Watching TV? Building roads and schools? No. They moved the 4 armies to the border area with the intent of going into Korean to engage the UN forces. That decision was made months before the first man even left his base. A military doesn't just move whole armies around without the intent to actually use them. Over months or years maybe. But not in that short of a time span.
                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Davis_Chan
                  July,13.1950. The Central Military Committee of China made a decision to secure its northeast border by manoeuvring 4 elite armies
                  July,24.The 38th army arrived at Fengcheng
                  July,25.The 39th army arrived at Liaoyang
                  July,26.The 40th army arrived at Dandong
                  Sep,29.UN troops arrived at 38th parallel
                  Oct,5. After a long debate,Politics Bureau of China had finally made a decision to intervene.Appointed Pengdehuai as the commander
                  Oct,25.CPV engaged with South troops
                  Nov,1. CPV engaged with US 1st Cavalry Division

                  there were only 20 days between china made the decision and engaged with UN troops.in addition to the air cover and land force furnishment as well as the finance,china was far from "prepared" or "sufficient".
                  LOL :)
                  No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
                  I agree completely with this Administrationís goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
                  even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
                  He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. Itís the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

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                  • #24
                    Hehehehe...those dates sure do tell a tale, even to a civvie-puke like me.
                    “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
                    ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by deadkenny
                      OMG. Is that Photoshopped or what? Looks like N. Koreans are the ultimate 'conservationists'. ;)
                      No it's not photoshopped.

                      Last edited by Bill; 04 Sep 06,, 16:34.

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                      • #26
                        Damn. Never seen economic failure as clear cut as that.

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                        • #27
                          interesting thing was, up until the 70s, NK was doing better than SK, because NK had heavy industries and support from the USSR.

                          then export-led growth from the south took over.

                          the difference between the dictators in the north and the south were, the south korean leaders felt that they would get stronger if the nation itself got wealthier. the north korean leader always believed that true power remained with the gun.

                          ironically...both were right.
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by astralis
                            the difference between the dictators in the north and the south were, the south korean leaders felt that they would get stronger if the nation itself got wealthier. the north korean leader always believed that true power remained with the gun.

                            ironically...both were right.
                            Yeah, but power from the gun, when faced with abject poverty, eventually discovers that the guns are wielded by average guys who come from that sea of abject poverty. I don't think the North's leaders will be shown to be right for much longer.

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