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Il Duce urged opposition to Hitler

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  • Il Duce urged opposition to Hitler

    Il Duce urged opposition to Hitler

    ROME, Italy (Reuters) -- Even as he was forming an alliance with Adolf Hitler, former fascist dictator Benito Mussolini was urging the Vatican to step up opposition to the German ruler and even excommunicate him, secret Vatican archives have shown.

    "It's absolutely amazing since it seems to fly in the face of facts, but the proof is there in the archives," Emma Fattorini, a professor at Rome's Sapienza university, told Reuters on Friday.

    Fattorini, a historian who has been studying the Vatican's archives on relations with pre-war Germany since they were opened to scholars in February, said the documents show Mussolini was playing a "double game."

    Although in his adult life Hitler was not a practicing Catholic and was critical of the religion, he had been baptized a Catholic by his mother.

    In April of 1938, Mussolini told Holy See representative Pietro Tacchi Venturi the Vatican should adopt harsher measures against Hitler such as excommunication, according to Venturi's own account of their talks.

    Venturi reported to Pope Pius XI after the meeting with Mussolini and his account was written down and recorded in the Vatican archives.

    "The head of the government told P. Tacchi Venturi in a private meeting that with Hitler it would be advisable to be more energetic, without half measures; not now, not immediately, but waiting for the best time to adopt these more energetic measures, for example excommunication," the record says.

    Fattorini said Mussolini was apparently trying to take advantage of Pope Pius XI's antipathy to Hitler to have his too-powerful ally reined in a bit.

    "He wanted the Holy See to put Hitler off, to rein him in," she said. "He was saying 'seeing that you're already angry, why don't you use the tools you have and do something about it'."

    By October 1936, Mussolini was already talking about a Rome-Berlin axis but in March 1938, Hitler annexed Austria and became an obvious threat to Italian security -- especially in Italy's German-speaking northern region.

    Mussolini signed a military alliance with Germany in 1939 and joined the war a year later. But when the tide turned in Europe, Mussolini was dismissed and Italy fell temporarily into the hands of occupying German troops.

    It is not clear if the Church ever seriously considered excommunicating Hitler, especially as Pope Pius XI died in 1939 and his successor, Pius XII, took a much more cautious approach to relations with Hitler.

    The Vatican archives relating to pre-war Germany were opened ahead of schedule in a bid to counter charges that the Vatican did not do enough to prevent the Holocaust. But questions will likely remain until the files from 1939 and on are opened.

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe...eut/index.html
    "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

  • #2
    In my most humble opinion, the Catholic Church leadership could have done so much more against Hitler than it did. They probably would have suffered greatly but they would have won a moral victory of immense proportions.
    I've seen this picture of Catholic officials, bishops, cardinals whatever with Hitler and the rest, giving the stiff-armed salute. Makes me want to vomit any time I think about it.
    “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
    ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

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    • #3
      Originally posted by TopHatter
      In my most humble opinion, the Catholic Church leadership could have done so much more against Hitler than it did. They probably would have suffered greatly but they would have won a moral victory of immense proportions.
      I've seen this picture of Catholic officials, bishops, cardinals whatever with Hitler and the rest, giving the stiff-armed salute. Makes me want to vomit any time I think about it.
      Why, in the last 60 years, has the Catholic Church always seem to find it self on the wrong side of history? They seem to become the standard voice of the appeasement. They don't want to challenge evil because they are afraid that they going to lose some of there power. The church hasn't learned much from history, unfortunately. There is a picture of the Pope shacking hands with Saddam's VP. Petty Sad.

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      • #4
        Leader, I couldnt have said it any better myself. You were right on target.
        “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
        ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by TopHatter giving the stiff-armed salute
          The Roman Salute (which Hitler adopted) dates back to the time of the Caesars. I was dissapointed that in the film Gladiator (with Russell Crowe) they didn't show the legions saluting Marcus Aurelius properly.

          I think it is a real shame that the stiff armed salute has come to equal national socialism, because it is a part of Italian heritage.

          Anyway, I don't think the Catholic Church could have done a whole lot. Certain Lutheran ministers tried to preach against Hitler, but they were silenced, one way or another.

          National Socialism had become the new religion of the people, and with half of Catholocisms european powerbase in the trance of Facism (Italy and Germany), I can't see why the Church of the day would want to oppose it.

          I mean, what is the difference between extreme Roman Catholocism and Facism/National Socialism? Both like centralised power, both dislike any form of democracy, both dislike dissent, be it political or religious.

          And the Catholics track record with the Jews wasn't exactly enviable either.

          If you remember that national socialism could still be with us today bar a few accidents, you might find it harder to blame the Churches for not opposing the governments of their day.

          I mean, Britian could have stayed out of a continental war quite easily. Hitler could have chosen not to invade Russia, and built up enough defences to keep the commies at bay.

          The Second World War could have happend very differently, given just a couple of events that could have gone either way.

          My point is that compromising Churches (like the Catholics and Lutherans) have to deal with the governments of the day. It certainly looked like fascism/national socailism was there to stay. Why fight something you can't beat, that isn't that bad anyway?
          SWANSEA 'TILL I DIE! - CARN THE CROWS!

          Rule Britannia, No Surrender

          Staff Cadet in the Australian Army Reserve.

          Soli Deo Gloria

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          • #6
            I don't want to start a theological arguement here, but I will say this: Fighting the fight that can't be won but that is true to your principles is what true Christianity or religion period is all about.
            The Catholic Church ignored it's higher duty to God and instead placated Hitler, a man. A total f--king maniac of a man.
            Those Catholic bishops cavorting with the Nazis werent recalling Italian heritage. They were kow-towing to the people in power. They foreswore their higher duty to God and sold their souls to the manifestation of pure unadulterated EVIL
            You are correct that the Church could not have done much, but imagine this:
            As soon as Hitler comes to power, his goals were NOT a secret. Ever heard of Mein Kampf? Had the Church immeadiately and loudly condemned Hitler and the Nazis (let's call them what they were. "National Socialists" almost sounds respectable) then maybe, just maybe Hitler would have thought twice about commencing military operations when his home front was not secure.
            We will never know.
            As I already said, the cost to the Church would probably have been immense, but the Church would now be occupying the moral high ground as never before.
            As it is now, the Church has to live with the absolute shame of their virtual silence as they stood by (at best) and watched the worst example of human beings butcher millions of helpless men women and children. Oh, and don't forget, that doesnt just mean the Jews of Europe.
            “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
            ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

            Comment


            • #7
              There are however, hundreds if not thousands of instances where Jewish children and families, refugees, E&E Allied forces were sheltered by Christians in monestaries, churches, and the like.
              Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

              Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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              • #8
                The Cathilic Church also replaced many of the bishops and priests in the Pacific with Priests and Bishops more friendly to the allies (mostly from the Brittish Empire).
                Your look more lost than a bastard child on fathers day.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by bigross86
                  There are however, hundreds if not thousands of instances where Jewish children and families, refugees, E&E Allied forces were sheltered by Christians in monestaries, churches, and the like.
                  Yes and there are many documented cases of the Catholic Church sheltering escaped and fugitive Nazi and SS from the Allies and smuggling them to South America.
                  “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
                  ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TopHatter
                    I don't want to start a theological arguement here, but I will say this: Fighting the fight that can't be won but that is true to your principles is what true Christianity or religion period is all about.
                    The Catholic Church ignored it's higher duty to God and instead placated Hitler, a man. A total f--king maniac of a man.
                    Sorry if I wasn't clearer about this...

                    Not to put to fine a point on it, I despise the Roman Cartholic Church. It has twisted the truth of the word of God into a blasphemous abomination. Christianity is now associated with pedophilia, persecution, the Crusades, and regression. All because of the Pope and his minons.

                    This is because the Catholic Church ultimately serves man rather than God. You will notice that I referred to them (along with the Lutherans) as a compromising church, for that is what they are. They pick and choose what doctrines they preach, leaving what they will.

                    This is not to say that Catholics (and Lutherans & Anglicans) do not do anyhting right, indeed, Catholics are to be applauded for their strong stance against homosexuality and abortion. Still, they preach some pert of scripture, and leave others.

                    In my last post, I was simply putting the Church's actions into perspective. Many people (perhaps yourself included) believe that churches should reflect and follow society, and not the other way around. For example, general society tolerates homosexuality, so the church should just shut up about it. General society has no problem with people living together before they are married, so the church should just accept it.

                    In 1930's Germany, general society accpeted National Socialism. Surely you can understand how the Catholic Church went along with it, especially when the vast majority of its members in Germany and Italy supported the doctrines of Hitler and Mussolini.

                    I mean, the enemies of Hitler and the enemies of the Church were often one and the same. Gypsies, homosexuals, Jews, dissenters.

                    Anyway, its easy enough to critisize people for not opposing fascism, but would you have? When everyone in society, from politicians, to teachers, to church leaders, supported it? When it took your country from the depths of the Great Depression to the heights of industrial, economic, and military power?
                    SWANSEA 'TILL I DIE! - CARN THE CROWS!

                    Rule Britannia, No Surrender

                    Staff Cadet in the Australian Army Reserve.

                    Soli Deo Gloria

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ziska
                      Everything you said about the Catholic Church is dead on in my opinion. The Church has perverted the Word of God and twisted it horribly.
                      My biggest problem is there was ample evidence of just what kind of people the Nazis were, even in the 30s, and the Church was happy to support it.
                      Individual priests and nuns protested and worked against the Nazis and paid for it, sometimes with their lives. However, the Church hierarchy, specifcially the Pope in Rome, were silent. A shameful record, in my humble opinion.
                      “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
                      ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        "Why fight something you can't beat, that isn't that bad anyway?"

                        You're kidding me, right?

                        National Socailism isn't that bad?

                        I'd be doing my level headed best to eliminate by force of arms as many politicians as possible if such a system were adopted in the United States, even if they came to power through a legal election.

                        It is my right- nay- expected duty, to defend the United States Constitution from all enemies, foriegn and domestic. In this endeavour i would be far from alone.

                        National socailism is a direct affront to the spirit and intent of the Founding Fathers, and all that the United States is based on.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by M21Sniper
                          [BIt is my right- nay- expected duty, to defend the United States Constitution from all enemies, foriegn and domestic. In this endeavour i would be far from alone.
                          [/B]
                          A majority of the state of Texas would probly back you up.
                          Your look more lost than a bastard child on fathers day.

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                          • #14
                            Pennsylvania would be right there with you, except for the cesspool socailist cities of Philly(of which i am unfortunate to live in) and Pittsburgh.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by M21Sniper
                              Pennsylvania would be right there with you, except for the cesspool socailist cities of Philly(of which i am unfortunate to live in) and Pittsburgh.
                              But at least that means you have a higher probability of repo'ing something from a socialist. :)
                              Your look more lost than a bastard child on fathers day.

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