What was the point of Hitler's project?

[Blademaster]

First jet engine was British, first guided missile was a WWI US Army project called the Kettering Bug. Germany was first in jet aircraft and rocket powered guided missiles.

The British jet engine project was never taken seriously until after Germany started developing it as a government project and actually developed a working model. As for the Kettering Bug Project, it never made past the design phase whereas Germany was the first one to put it into production.

[Stitch]

So did with German technology too. Panzer IV Tiger 1 and II was still the best tank out there but Germany couldn't manufacture it fast enough to replace the losses in comparison with US & Soviet production rates. Don't forget that Germany was the first nation to come up with jet engine technology or guided missile technology.

Yes, they were very advanced in some areas, and inexplicably backwards in other areas. The Germans didn't really grasp the importance of sloped armor until they ran into the T-34 in 1942; thick, slab armor was still the preferred technique for constructing German tanks until then. The Russians were unusually prescient in adopting the American tank designer J. Walter Christie's revolutionary BT-series tank design, which included sloping armor and an external, high-speed suspension system. It wasn't until the advent of the Pz.Kpfw. VI "Panther" tank that the Germans adopted (and, some would say, perfected) heavy, sloped armor.

As for guided missiles, probably the most advanced examples of this were the German Fritz X air-to-ground guided bomb, and the Wasserfall surface-to-air missile.

The Germans were also extremely advanced in their submarine designs; in particular, the "Elektroboote" Type XXI, which pioneered an innovative AIP system using hydrogen peroxide for underwater propulsion, allowing the U-boat to spend most of it's time underwater, unlike conventional diesel-electric U-boats, such as the Type VII.

World War II in Pictures: Type XXI U-Boat, Forerunner of Modern Submarines

[zraver]

The British jet engine project was never taken seriously until after Germany started developing it as a government project and actually developed a working model. As for the Kettering Bug Project, it never made past the design phase whereas Germany was the first one to put it into production.

Still the jet engine is British not German and the Kettering Bug did make it into production, it was just never deployed in combat.

[zraver]

The Germans were also extremely advanced in their submarine designs; in particular, the "Elektroboote" Type XXI, which pioneered an innovative AIP system using hydrogen peroxide for underwater propulsion, allowing the U-boat to spend most of it's time underwater, unlike conventional diesel-electric U-boats, such as the Type VII.

World War II in Pictures: Type XXI U-Boat, Forerunner of Modern Submarines

Until the Type XXI I think the best submarine distinction goes to the USN or IJN. The needs of the Pacific pushed US/IJ development harder than the Atlantic pushed Germany.

[Genosaurer]

So did with German technology too. Panzer IV Tiger 1 and II was still the best tank out there but Germany couldn't manufacture it fast enough to replace the losses in comparison with US & Soviet production rates.

The Panzer III was probably the most competitive tank Nazi Germany produced, compared to contemporary machines - assuming we don't count the excellent LT vz. 38, later Panzer 38(t), which they swiped in job lots from Czechoslovakia following the annexation and used to good effect in Poland and France. The Panzer IV was a badly flawed concept, and even after rearming with a useful main gun it was never better than mediocre - the best thing you can say about it was that the amply-sized turret ring left a lot of room for up-gunning, which kept it in service longer than the otherwise greatly superior Panzer III. Later German armor development is a succession of increasingly lousy boondoggles; History Channel and Belton Cooper aside, German late-war tanks were mechanically awful (people like to say "over-engineered", but "badly engineered" is much closer to the truth), with a variety of serious flaws that cost Germany heavily in the East and West, on and off the battlefield.

Tiger: Bad armor layout resulting in a very heavy vehicle that can still be frontally penetrated at combat ranges by most contemporary allied anti-tank weapons (including the M4 Sherman's much-maligned 75mm M3) and a very wide profile (so wide that special tracks were required to ship them by rail). Poor mechanical reliability resulting in frequent breakdowns on road marches (exacerbated by width and weight making it difficult to transport on train cars). Very prone to fuel leakage into engine bay, causing fires when penetrated.

Panther: Exceptionally mechanically unreliable due to multiple weight increases during development placing 45+ tons onto a 24-ton tank's underpinnings. Spectacularly poor final drive design that often lasted less than 150 kilometers before breakdown, forcing Germans (and French, post-war) to ship them by train even when traveling distances as low as 25 kilometers. Also prone to leaks from fuel lines, and even with extensive additional ventilation to the engine compartment and an automatic extinguishing system built into later models, the Panther would occasionally set itself on fire before even seeing combat. Low turret traverse rate (especially on inclines) and extremely limited situational awareness of gunner (who could only see out using the narrow-field magnified gunsight, with no wide-angle unmagnified sight or periscope as almost all allied tanks had for target acquisition) resulted in slow target engagement (20-30 seconds longer than an M4 Sherman depending on conditions, based again on French post-war experience using both vehicles). Early model turret mantlet had an alarming tendency to deflect frontal hits downward into nonexistent roof armor of crew compartment, and the weight of the 'chin' added to prevent this from the Ausf. G onward exacerbated the already slow speed and mechanical frailty of the turret traverse system. Very tall. 40mm side armor vulnerable to almost every antitank weapon in the allied inventory, with ammunition stored directly behind in over-track panniers that tended to burn with impressive violence from any penetrating hit.

Tiger B/King Tiger: Low quality of front armor plate and armor welds resulting in much less effective protection than specs would imply. Similar drive system and engine compartmentalization to Panther resulting in many of the same problems, including short component life, high maintenance requirements and tendency to burst into flames, although a herringbone/helical final drive gearing (compared to Panther's spur gears) at least made them last longer, even on a heavier vehicle. Very large and heavy, to the point that tactical mobility was limited by vehicle weight and dimensions even when Germany was on the defensive.

[astralis]

The French army of 1938-39 would most likely have mauled a post-Czech war German Army, not only because of the losses of German armour, but also because Germany would have lacked the ability to concentrate the numbers it did in 1940 - lack of secure Eastern borders. Of course, the Germans would have been in no hurry to bring that confrontation on. German border defences in the West were not great, but I don't think the French would have taken advantage until too late. Not really sure how it would have played out, but I can't see the Allies waiting until 1940 to engage in combat.

wonder if the Allies would have declared on Germany for invading Czechoslovakia. I suppose it depends on Munich turned out, IE if Czechslovakia said "screw you" to UK and French ultimatum and fought Germany by herself vice Hitler just fighting it out from the beginning.

either way there's a pretty high chance Hitler gets assassinated. it was a devil's miracle that he wasn't.

[zraver]

wonder if the Allies would have declared on Germany for invading Czechoslovakia. I suppose it depends on Munich turned out, IE if Czechslovakia said "screw you" to UK and French ultimatum and fought Germany by herself vice Hitler just fighting it out from the beginning.

either way there's a pretty high chance Hitler gets assassinated. it was a devil's miracle that he wasn't.

Maybe if Germany blunted her teeth on the Czech forts. Otherwise I can' really see France doing much more than they did with the Saar Offensive.

[Albany Rifles]

2 things helped doom the Germans from the start.

1. They failed to fully mobilize their economy until well into 1943. That screwed them from jump street. And to allow the economy to be controlled to the level they did by the SS was madness.

2. They overengineered everything. The used machine brass safety pins in applications where the Allies used Cotter pins. And that craftsmanship in the eaches caused them to fail repeatedly in the system. Their issues with armor have already been highlighted. They also frittered away resources on weapons they didn't need. Why the hell did they need the Bismark, Tirpitz or Prinz Eugen for? They were never a global surface navy...and they were not going to compete with the RN....or the USN for that matter.

[zraver]

2 things helped doom the Germans from the start.

1. They failed to fully mobilize their economy until well into 1943. That screwed them from jump street. And to allow the economy to be controlled to the level they did by the SS was madness.

2. They overengineered everything. The used machine brass safety pins in applications where the Allies used Cotter pins. And that craftsmanship in the eaches caused them to fail repeatedly in the system. Their issues with armor have already been highlighted. They also frittered away resources on weapons they didn't need. Why the hell did they need the Bismark, Tirpitz or Prinz Eugen for? They were never a global surface navy...and they were not going to compete with the RN....or the USN for that matter.

3. They did not fully mobilize their womenfolk, using slave labor increased logistical requirements and reduced output.

4. They uses horses. They lost so many horses on the Eastern Front, they gutted their farm stock and ended up having to divert petrol and tractors away from the army for use in farming.

5. They resorted to using training cadres as front line formations and crippled their follow on training programs.

The list of blunders is endless, each one of them by itself a disaster and collectively they equal utter defeat.

[astralis]

on the other hand, hitler was also -very- close to realizing his dream of turning Germany from a regional power to a superpower.

all he had to do were two things:

- don't declare war on the USSR.
- don't declare war on the US.

Churchill could fight on from the sides but if Germany was willing to pay the price for grinding through Malta, then there would be no way for UK to match Germany for weight of men and metal if north Africa was the main show and not a side show.

if Suez falls then UK political opinion would be hard-pressed to continue the war to no gain.

with the UK and the US out of the picture...and German armies at the Caucasus Mountains...no fear of a western front, no bombing of the German homelands and transportation networks...with no US LL to the USSR....-then- Hitler could safely consider a USSR invasion.

[Stitch]

3. They did not fully mobilize their womenfolk, using slave labor increased logistical requirements and reduced output.

4. They uses horses. They lost so many horses on the Eastern Front, they gutted their farm stock and ended up having to divert petrol and tractors away from the army for use in farming.

5. They resorted to using training cadres as front line formations and crippled their follow on training programs.

The list of blunders is endless, each one of them by itself a disaster and collectively they equal utter defeat.

The root cause of many of these "blunders" was Hitlers style of leadership itself; instead of instituting a relatively efficient bureaucracy/government, Hitler was so paranoid about losing his grip on the leadership of the country that he played different divisions/factions of the government off against one another. Instead of one intelligence service, Nazi Germany had at least 2 or 3; instead of one branch of the armed forces, Hitler instituted his own "personal" branch of the armed forces called the Waffen SS which, while a very fanatical and ruthless branch of the military, actually drained manpower and resources away from the "legitimate" armed forces of Nazi Germany, particularly the Heer.

Example: Nazi Germany had at least three separate intelligence agencies that I know of and, for the most part, they tended to compete against each another, instead of cooperating with one another; this included the Abwehr (the military intelligence organization), the Gestapo (or Geheime Staatspolizei, "Secret State Police"), and the SD (or Sicherheitsdienst, "Security Service").

[kato]

Example: Nazi Germany had at least three separate intelligence agencies that I know of and, for the most part, they tended to compete against each another, instead of cooperating with one another; this included the Abwehr (the military intelligence organization), the Gestapo (or Geheime Staatspolizei, "Secret State Police"), and the SD (or Sicherheitsdienst, "Security Service").

There was also the Geheime Feldpolizei ("secret field police"), which had a military internal intelligence and partial military police function - including against outside interlopers, i.e. the general population.

Plus the four "other" pure intelligence services - the Marinenachrichtendienst (naval military intelligence), "Seehaus"/"Lake House" (before 1940 "Landhaus"/"Country House" - counterpart of US FBIS), "Forschungsamt der Luftwaffe"/"Research Agency of the Air Force" (Göring's SIGINT agency aimed at domestic telephone network with some HUMINT capacity - air force reference was for cover to keep it inhouse with Göring) as well as "Chi" (counterpart of British GC&CS, i.e. codecracking).

[Mihais]

Maybe if Germany blunted her teeth on the Czech forts. Otherwise I can' really see France doing much more than they did with the Saar Offensive.

Poland could.And even if France did nothing of importance,a mere demonstration can freak out the OKH.

[Mihais]

on the other hand, hitler was also -very- close to realizing his dream of turning Germany from a regional power to a superpower.

all he had to do were two things:

- don't declare war on the USSR.
- don't declare war on the US.

Churchill could fight on from the sides but if Germany was willing to pay the price for grinding through Malta, then there would be no way for UK to match Germany for weight of men and metal if north Africa was the main show and not a side show.

if Suez falls then UK political opinion would be hard-pressed to continue the war to no gain.

with the UK and the US out of the picture...and German armies at the Caucasus Mountains...no fear of a western front, no bombing of the German homelands and transportation networks...with no US LL to the USSR....-then- Hitler could safely consider a USSR invasion.

All fine and cool,but Hitler had no time for such niceties.The Soviets were coming.

[zraver]

Poland could.And even if France did nothing of importance,a mere demonstration can freak out the OKH.

Not sure Poland would, she got territory from th Czechs as part of the Munich accords, France tried for years to get the two of them to work together and they both refused. Further the Bled Agreement isolated the Czechs from its neighbors ad left them dependent on France and the USSR, neither of which could actually send help. As an aside, there is a chance of Hungary jumping on Czechoslovakia's back if Germany attacks.