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True Scale of the Holocaust Revealed

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  • True Scale of the Holocaust Revealed

    True scale of the Holocaust revealed

    Worse than the world ever imagined: True scale of the Holocaust revealed as it's discovered Nazis created 42,500 camps and ghettos to persecute Jews - not 7,000 as previously thought

    By ANTHONY BOND
    PUBLISHED: 17:36 GMT, 2 March 2013 | UPDATED: 20:02 GMT, 2 March 2013

    It is one of the worst moments in history, which still horrifies to this day. During Hitler's brutal reign of Nazi Germany, more than six million Jews were killed. But now new research has discovered that the Holocaust may well be even worse than previously thought.

    Researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum have been documenting all of the Nazi concentration camps, ghettos, slave labour sites and killing factories which had been set up across Europe.When they first started the project, the team expected to find about 7,000 camps and ghettos.

    Shockingly, they discovered 42,500 camps across large swathes of German-controlled Europe. The researchers predict that up to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the sites.
    Speaking to the New York Times, Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said: 'The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought.

    'We knew before how horrible life in the camps and ghettos was but the numbers are unbelievable.'

    The figure includes 30,000 slave labour camps and 980 concentration camps. As well as 'killing centres' they included forced labour camps where prisoners made supplies for the war.

    They also included sites called 'care' centres in which pregnant women were made to have abortions or their babies murdered shortly after birth.

    The researchers have created a series of maps which present a grim view of life in wartime Europe.They show just how widespread the camps were, although most were centred in Germany and Poland.

    Previous data has shown just the existence of individual camps on a fragmented basis.

    But using data from 400 contributors , they have now documented the large scale operation for the first time.

    They have discovered exactly where they are located and how they were run.

    It is now believed that the research could help survivors with their claims over unpaid insurance policies. Researchers say the project has helped change the understanding about Holocaust experts over how the camps were run.

    The Warsaw Ghetto has been identified as the biggest site - holding about 500,000 people at one point.

    When the project first started, the researchers expected to find about 7,000 Nazi camps and ghettos. But as the project has gone on, the numbers constantly increased to the current figure of 42,500.

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]32170[/ATTACH]

    Thirteen years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labour sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe - and realised they had underestimated the extent of the Nazis' evil. This map shows the vast spread of SS concentration camps across Europe

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]32171[/ATTACH]

    The map shows the Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler's reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945
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    Last edited by bigross86; 03 Mar 13,, 00:17.
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  • #2
    Since they are counting the industrial sites its not surprising given the way the Nazis used local industry and also had to disperse domestic sites under allied air attack.

    However some questions about methodology. Do they count every place that used slave labor (including farms) or just those with barracks. For example Auschwitz was not a single site but multiple sites including IIRC some major IG Farben plants. Did each of these get counted or is it all just Auschwitz?

    This is more than academic. It goes straight to the question of what did the locals know and thus culpability. While the people in or near the 980ish camps that were part of the concentration camp system those away could claim ignorance. Depending on how they counted that could strip this denial from them.

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    • #3
      This is actually a long time in coming--the research has been ongoing for years. The US holocaust museum began to publicize its findings circa 2009 when when they found that number of camps were 20,000 and rising. Professor Geoffrey Megaree actually posted on ww2f.com to answer questions about methodology that members raised. Here's the link.

      As the series editor of the encyclopedia and the editor of volume 1, allow me to reassure the other members on several points that I have seen come up.

      First, there were indeed 20,000 camps, and actually many more than that; we are only dealing with some of them. I know it's hard to believe: witness the fact that the scholars who created this project (before I got here) thought the number was between 5,000 and 7,000.

      (Just one example of the ones we aren't counting: prisons. There was a Gestapo prison in every city, and these places fed prisoners to the concentration camps. But we cannot have individual entries on them; it just isn't practical. We'll try to cover the 50-100 most important.)

      No, they were not all the size of Auschwitz, but we are not counting the tiny ones, either. Most of these places had several hundred to several thousand prisoners and existed for months, if not years.

      It may seem unprofessional to have one person do all the research on a camp, but that's the reality. When a contributor comes to us, we check his or her qualifications, and we review their work, but we can't physically check every document they reviewed. Any encyclopedia has to depend upon its contributors to some extent.

      I hope that the folks who have doubts will take the time to look at volume 1. I believe you'll find that it is a valuable and accurate reference.

      Yours,

      Geoffrey Megargee
      Last edited by Triple C; 03 Mar 13,, 02:31.
      All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
      -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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      • #4
        Due to the limit on the minimum number of prisoners and permanence of the camps, I'd suggest that larger camp systems that are linked together like Auschwitz would be counted as one. I don't think it makes much sense from a historian's perspective to monkey the way they are counted because everyone treated well-integrated system of camps as a single unit.

        If you don't have time for the full post, a historian would submit name and location of camp, years in operation, capacity, number of deaths, and so forth. Once historian was vetted they add the entry to the database.
        All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
        -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Triple C View Post
          Due to the limit on the minimum number of prisoners and permanence of the camps, I'd suggest that larger camp systems that are linked together like Auschwitz would be counted as one. I don't think it makes much sense from a historian's perspective to monkey the way they are counted because everyone treated well-integrated system of camps as a single unit.
          Makes sense from an administrative perspective. Due to qualitative differences however, many prisoners regarded sub-camps as distinct entities.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Triple C View Post
            Due to the limit on the minimum number of prisoners and permanence of the camps, I'd suggest that larger camp systems that are linked together like Auschwitz would be counted as one.
            The map above shows sub-camps. These are the network structure, showing the Stammlager (red dots) with both Außenlager (offsite camps), Arbeitslager (work camps) and single-site Arbeitsstätten (work sites).

            At least that's the case for the one around here. Natzweiler-Struthof in Northwest Alsace with about ten offsite camps in Alsace and Southwest Germany and about 25 work sites.

            However, i'm not sure whether other camps outside the KZ structure aren't in the above maps too. The SD for example ran socalled "security camps" or "reeducation camps" where noncollaborative people, e.g. Alsatians who refused the Germanization of the country or people who refused to work, were held. These were separate from the entire KZ structure. I think in the case of Natzweiler-Struthoff, e.g. SD camp Schirmeck-Vorbruck is shown in the map along with one of its two work sites. There were at least half a dozen parallel camp structures in Germany, of which the KZ structure is just the best-known outside Germany. The problem is that even inside Germany, most of these camps' sites are just remembered as "concentration camps" without any distinction even by the locals.

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            • #7
              1. Thanks for spotting the satellite camps.

              2. Not all labor camps and ghettos are part of the KZ structure, are they? Both of these are counted in this study. The military's own POW camps for example didn't fall into the KZ administration, if memory serves. And the study did state that (a number of?) POW camps were included as they would qualify as sites that resulted in mass death.

              Still, the old estimates of 7,000 camps are based on exactly the same parameters; the finally tally do represent a significant discovery.

              Originally posted by kato View Post
              The map above shows sub-camps. These are the network structure, showing the Stammlager (red dots) with both Außenlager (offsite camps), Arbeitslager (work camps) and single-site Arbeitsstätten (work sites).

              At least that's the case for the one around here. Natzweiler-Struthof in Northwest Alsace with about ten offsite camps in Alsace and Southwest Germany and about 25 work sites.

              However, i'm not sure whether other camps outside the KZ structure aren't in the above maps too. The SD for example ran socalled "security camps" or "reeducation camps" where noncollaborative people, e.g. Alsatians who refused the Germanization of the country or people who refused to work, were held. These were separate from the entire KZ structure. I think in the case of Natzweiler-Struthoff, e.g. SD camp Schirmeck-Vorbruck is shown in the map along with one of its two work sites. There were at least half a dozen parallel camp structures in Germany, of which the KZ structure is just the best-known outside Germany. The problem is that even inside Germany, most of these camps' sites are just remembered as "concentration camps" without any distinction even by the locals.
              Last edited by Triple C; 07 Mar 13,, 09:44.
              All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
              -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                2. Not all labor camps and ghettos are part of the KZ structure, are they?
                The KZ structure only describes camps run by the SS.

                If we're just talking the really organized stuff: The Gestapo for example also ran some 200 core camps designated "work education camps" along with literally thousands of small local work camps; these camps held at least 500,000 detainees forced to work. These weren't part of what's considered the Holocaust today either; deaths in these camps were mostly caused by accidents, malnutrition, disease and the like, not by organized industrial mass murder. Detainees in these camps were mostly disgruntled, disobedient workers with a rather high share of immigrants (males: 40%, females: 20%) from Eastern European and other occupied or allied territories. Organisation Todt, the Nazi construction corps, also ran camps taking in mock "volunteers" mostly from forced immigration and POW camps, with about 1.5 million of these serving with OT during the war. The organisation was originally built up employing similar numbers of (also more or less "volunteering") Germans in the 1930s, who were gradually replaced by detainees when shifted over to military service.

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                • #9
                  Is there any reason why the ghettos from Nazi puppets and collaborators in Southeastern Europe like the Ustashe and Iron Guard are excluded from the NYT map? I assume that the report does list them, though.

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                  • #10
                    This is the map of all the camps in former Yugoslavia:



                    There are 70 "camps" that by Yugoslav authorities (commies) were labeled as fascist.

                    IDK about all, but I know that most notable is Jasenovac in Croatia and from what I know about the most from those on the map, including Skopje (#47 on the map) is that they were primarily used as assembly, transit and emigration camps.
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