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  • question regarding Sherman variant

    as the thread says i want to know when the
    M4A3 (76)W (Vertical volute spring suspension) british designation Sherman IV A entered production and if possible first combat deployment .
    J'ai en marre.

  • #2
    Originally posted by 1979 View Post
    as the thread says i want to know when the
    M4A3 (76)W (Vertical volute spring suspension) british designation Sherman IV A entered production and if possible first combat deployment .
    First production was march 1944 produced at two plants Fischer and Detroit, Production ended sometime before August 1944 as the HVSS variant went into production. Weight 35.5 short tons, max hull armor 2.5" at 47 degrees, turret armor 2.5' all the way around front at 45 degrees, mantlet 3.5". 1400 produced, M1A1, m1A1C or M1A2 76mm gun with 72 rounds (6 ready) 24 sec traverse, vertical stabilization. 26mph road speed, 90" trench crossing, 32" vertical climb, 60 degree slop max climb, 62' turning radius (could not pivot steer).

    First combat was July 1944, don't have a unit or a date for sure.

    Comment


    • #3
      Unfortunately, know next to NOTHING about US armor; now, ask me a question about German armor, that's a whole 'nother issue . . . . .
      "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Stitch View Post
        Unfortunately, know next to NOTHING about US armor; now, ask me a question about German armor, that's a whole 'nother issue . . . . .
        You should check it out, Stitch, IMHO the development of US tank strategy (with accompanying hardware) throughout the 1930s and 1940s is as interesting as the German experience.

        Comment


        • #5
          My concept of US armor during WWII goes something like this: M2/M3 -------> M4 -------> M26, and that's it; I'm sure there's something in between, I just haven't looked into it yet.
          "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Stitch View Post
            My concept of US armor during WWII goes something like this: M2/M3 -------> M4 -------> M26, and that's it; I'm sure there's something in between, I just haven't looked into it yet.
            British designation is easier to remember,

            m4- sherman 1
            m4a1- sherman 2
            m4a2-sherman 3
            m4a3- sherman 4

            when the armament was upgraded , they added letters ( A-76mm gun, B-105mm how ) .
            J'ai en marre.

            Comment


            • #7
              The US tank destroyer doctrine was unique, they didn't intend for the tanks to take on other tanks, the M-10, and later M-18 and M-36 were designed for this role. There was some resistance to upgunning the M-4 to 76mm, and this was strengthened when the first ammo for the 76 was problematic (over hard projectiles shattered on impact). The British seemed to build tanks that could handle other tanks earlier on, the 6 pdr was on many of the British tanks and was superior to most western allies tanks guns, the 17 pdr was the ideal tank gun to take on the big cats - but it only got into WWII combat as a tank gun on the Sherman Firefly, there were never enough of these, and they were vulnerable with their standard Sherman armor. They did build a shortened version called the 77mm on the Comet, but it was less effective, and not fielded in very large numbers. The Centurian started with a 17 Pdr, but it was too late for WWII, and soon got an even better 20 Pdr.
              sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
              If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by USSWisconsin View Post
                , the 6 pdr was on many of the British tanks and was superior to most western allies tanks guns
                looking into penetration figures starts to give me headaches
                however it is safe to assume that the 75 mm guns fired more powerful HE shells.
                J'ai en marre.

                Comment


                • #9
                  [QUOTE=USSWisconsin;866861] The British seemed to build tanks that could handle other tanks earlier on, the 6 pdr was on many of the British tanks and was superior to most western allies tanks guns,[quote]

                  Jay, the US 75mm gun M3 on the Sherman had nearly identical armor penetration at 1000 yards, at 500 yards the 6pdr only had .3" advantage and the 75mm had a much more effective HE round. The Sherman was also faster, had thicker armor, was more reliable, was a better gunnery platform and had more and more effective machine guns.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 1979 View Post
                    looking into penetration figures starts to give me headaches
                    however it is safe to assume that the 75 mm guns fired more powerful HE shells.
                    Yes, the 75 even had better HE than the 76.

                    Jason, it depends on which ammo, by D-day, the 6 Pdr had APDS - which was able to pentrate 171mm@90 deg at 100 yrds, much better performance than the 75mm. The gun was common and available, and a better tank killer than the 75, from all the sources I've seen. The 75 was a better tank gun overall, since anti-tank work was not the tank's main role in US doctrine. This was reflected by the British using it (the 75/38) on their tanks too.

                    The Sherman was the right tank for the job in WWII, the problems with German Cat's is exagerated, some German generals even commented they wished they had Shermans instead of the failure prone cats. Still for the tankers in a gun fight with a Panther or Tiger, it was a big deal.
                    Last edited by USSWisconsin; 27 Mar 12,, 04:24.
                    sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                    If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Stitch View Post
                      My concept of US armor during WWII goes something like this: M2/M3 -------> M4 -------> M26, and that's it; I'm sure there's something in between, I just haven't looked into it yet.
                      List of the most common US M vehicles of WWII, excluded all the T series except for the two pre-war light tanks.

                      T1 pre-war light tank, single .50cal HMG

                      T2 pre-war light tank with two turrets 1x .50cal and 1x .30cal nicknamed the Mae West

                      M1 Combat car pre-war cavalry tank, single turret with 2 machine guns.

                      M2, originally modified T1 and T2's later made from whole cloth. First Us cannon armed tank of the WW2 era. Only saw combat with the US in the Pacific. had fender mounted machine guns.

                      M2 half track/prime mover

                      M3 Scout car, 4x4 open top armored car with 1x .50cal HMG and 1x .30cal HMG. Also had a command variant.

                      M3/M5 Light tank. Probably the best light tank of the war from 40-44. 37mm high velocity AT gun and 3x .30cal MMG. Frontal armor equal to early war medium tanks.

                      M3 Lee/Grant first US tank with a 75mm gun- sponson mounted. Turret had a 37mm high velocity AT gun. Russians nicknamed it the coffin for 7 brothers.

                      M3 Half track

                      M4 Sherman- main US medium tank of WWII, most produced tank of the war and only in production for 2 years! (T-34 has a higher number counting pre and post war production). Although nicknamed the Tommy cooker and Ronson it was no more prone to fire than any other gasoline powered tank on either side. later versions with wet storage (water and glycol) were less prone than most. A2 versions had diesel engines but were only used in the Pacific and as LL to Russia. The M4 Sherman also set the turret ring size for all US tanks that followed it until the M1 Abrams.

                      M4 half track 81mm SP mortar

                      M4/5 prime mover/artillery tractor based on either the M3 light tank (M4) chassis or the T2/M2 chassis (M5)

                      M6 either a dodge 3/4 ton 4x4 or a jeep 1/4 ton 4x4 portee tank destroyer with a 37mm high velocity AT gun.

                      M6 heavy tank, 76mm gun armed with a coaxial 37mm. never entered full scale production.

                      M7 Priest, SP 105mm howitzer

                      M8 half track SP 75mm howitzer and tank destroyer

                      M8 Greyhound, mid-late war armored car, 37mm high velocity AT gun, 1x .30cal MMG, 1x .50cal HMG. Still in use today in some remote locations.

                      M10 Wolverine, SP tank destroyer with a high velocity 3" gun. Most powerful AFV in the world from June 1942 until the Tiger I entered production in August .

                      M12 GMC, 155mm SP howitzer

                      M15, AAA half track with 40mm cannon and 2x .50cal HMG

                      M16/17 AAA Half track with 4x .50cal HMG

                      M18 Hellcat, fast 75mm+ armed AFV of WWII with its 76mm M1A1 gun. To often used to provide direct support to the infantry like a tank was generally considered a failure.

                      M19, late war low production AAA platform on the M24 hull with 2x 40mm, later versions on the hull of post war M41 were known as Dusters and served well past Vietnam in some US national guard units.

                      M20 armored car with 1x .50cal and 1x .30cal MMG

                      M21 half track 81mm SP mortar

                      M22 light tank, glider deliverable light tank with a 37mm gun.

                      M24 Chaffee, late war light tank, weaker armor than the M3/m5 but overall a better tank with a low velocity 75mm gun and a full turret basket.

                      M26 Pershing, late war American heavy tank later reclassified as a medium tank and renamed the M46 Patton.

                      M37, SP 105mm howitzer on an M24 hull

                      M38 Wolfhound, late war 6x6 armored car prototype.

                      M36 Jackson, built on a Sherman hull like the m10 but with a larger turret ring and a 90mm gun.

                      M40 GMC 155mm SP howitzer

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Stitch View Post
                        My concept of US armor during WWII goes something like this: M2/M3 -------> M4 -------> M26, and that's it; I'm sure there's something in between, I just haven't looked into it yet.
                        List of the most common US M vehicles of WWII, excluded all the T series except for the two pre-war light tanks.

                        T1 pre-war light tank, single .50cal HMG

                        T2 pre-war light tank with two turrets 1x .50cal and 1x .30cal nicknamed the Mae West

                        M1 Combat car pre-war cavalry tank, single turret with 2 machine guns.

                        M2, originally modified T1 and T2's later made from whole cloth. First Us cannon armed tank of the WW2 era. Only saw combat with the US in the Pacific. had fender mounted machine guns.

                        M2 half track/prime mover

                        M3 Scout car, 4x4 open top armored car with 1x .50cal HMG and 1x .30cal HMG. Also had a command variant.

                        M3/M5 Light tank. Probably the best light tank of the war from 40-44. 37mm high velocity AT gun and 3x .30cal MMG. Frontal armor equal to early war medium tanks.

                        M3 Lee/Grant first US tank with a 75mm gun- sponson mounted. Turret had a 37mm high velocity AT gun. Russians nicknamed it the coffin for 7 brothers.

                        M3 Half track

                        M4 Sherman- main US medium tank of WWII, most produced tank of the war and only in production for 2 years! (T-34 has a higher number counting pre and post war production). Although nicknamed the Tommy cooker and Ronson it was no more prone to fire than any other gasoline powered tank on either side. later versions with wet storage (water and glycol) were less prone than most. A2 versions had diesel engines but were only used in the Pacific and as LL to Russia. The M4 Sherman also set the turret ring size for all US tanks that followed it until the M1 Abrams.

                        M4 half track 81mm SP mortar

                        M4/5 prime mover/artillery tractor based on either the M3 light tank (M4) chassis or the T2/M2 chassis (M5)

                        M6 either a dodge 3/4 ton 4x4 or a jeep 1/4 ton 4x4 portee tank destroyer with a 37mm high velocity AT gun.

                        M6 heavy tank, 76mm gun armed with a coaxial 37mm. never entered full scale production.

                        M7 Priest, SP 105mm howitzer

                        M8 half track SP 75mm howitzer and tank destroyer

                        M8 Greyhound, mid-late war armored car, 37mm high velocity AT gun, 1x .30cal MMG, 1x .50cal HMG. Still in use today in some remote locations.

                        M10 Wolverine, SP tank destroyer with a high velocity 3" gun. Most powerful AFV in the world from June 1942 until the Tiger I entered production in August .

                        M12 GMC, 155mm SP howitzer

                        M15, AAA half track with 40mm cannon and 2x .50cal HMG

                        M16/17 AAA Half track with 4x .50cal HMG

                        M18 Hellcat, fast 75mm+ armed AFV of WWII with its 76mm M1A1 gun. To often used to provide direct support to the infantry like a tank was generally considered a failure.

                        M19, late war low production AAA platform on the M24 hull with 2x 40mm, later versions on the hull of post war M41 were known as Dusters and served well past Vietnam in some US national guard units.

                        M20 armored car with 1x .50cal and 1x .30cal MMG

                        M21 half track 81mm SP mortar

                        M22 light tank, glider deliverable light tank with a 37mm gun.

                        M24 Chaffee, late war light tank, weaker armor than the M3/m5 but overall a better tank with a low velocity 75mm gun and a full turret basket.

                        M26 Pershing, late war American heavy tank later reclassified as a medium tank and renamed the M46 Patton.

                        M37, SP 105mm howitzer on an M24 hull

                        M38 Wolfhound, late war 6x6 armored car prototype.

                        M36 Jackson, built on a Sherman hull like the m10 but with a larger turret ring and a 90mm gun.

                        M40 GMC 155mm SP howitzer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 1979 View Post
                          looking into penetration figures starts to give me headaches
                          however it is safe to assume that the 75 mm guns fired more powerful HE shells.
                          If you want to learn about how the Sherman did in combat then get the book "Death Trap" written by a Lt. Belton Cooperwho was a maintenance officer in the 3rd Armored Division. Chilling account of the Sherman against Tigers and Panthers. While we had lots of Shermans by January 1945 we didn't have many tank crews left that had any experience. There is one section in the book where the writer talks about a Super Pershing that they modified a little with extra armor and then tested out the new 90mm 3,850 per second projectile in late February 1945. This is the tank we really needed. His description of how that shell went clear through a German Jagdpanzer IV assault gun, when examined, is amazing.

                          Apparently there was a point just after D-Day where a demonstration was held in England showing what a M26 could do. Many armored officers were impressed except one and he mattered. It was Patton who maintained that tanks were not for fighting tanks but for helping infantry. However, once they got into Northern Europe it became apparent that head on battles with German PzKw IV, PzKw V Panther and PzKw VI King Tiger tanks could not be avoided and the losses were horrendous. This demo was to decide if the M26 should be first priority or continue with the M4. Patton said M4 and the fate of the M4 and her crews was sealed.

                          Still have the last 85 pages to go out of 346.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            the losses were horrendous.

                            ~4400 lost shermans (June 1944-may 1945) is a small price to pay for victory.
                            J'ai en marre.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                              If you want to learn about how the Sherman did in combat then get the book "Death Trap" written by a Lt. Belton Cooperwho was a maintenance officer in the 3rd Armored Division. Chilling account of the Sherman against Tigers and Panthers. While we had lots of Shermans by January 1945 we didn't have many tank crews left that had any experience. There is one section in the book where the writer talks about a Super Pershing that they modified a little with extra armor and then tested out the new 90mm 3,850 per second projectile in late February 1945. This is the tank we really needed. His description of how that shell went clear through a German Jagdpanzer IV assault gun, when examined, is amazing.

                              Apparently there was a point just after D-Day where a demonstration was held in England showing what a M26 could do. Many armored officers were impressed except one and he mattered. It was Patton who maintained that tanks were not for fighting tanks but for helping infantry. However, once they got into Northern Europe it became apparent that head on battles with German PzKw IV, PzKw V Panther and PzKw VI King Tiger tanks could not be avoided and the losses were horrendous. This demo was to decide if the M26 should be first priority or continue with the M4. Patton said M4 and the fate of the M4 and her crews was sealed.

                              Still have the last 85 pages to go out of 346.
                              I enjoyed the book, the description of the super pershing shooting the jagdpanzer was great.
                              sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                              If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

                              Comment

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